Is the Patriots offense a "gimmick" offense

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Originally Posted by Gastineau99

Patriots don't run pick plays, they actually block defensive backs before the ball is half way to the WR on those screens. The O-Lineman also immediately run downfield and block. It amazes me every time I see it and I begin to wonder if the NFL changed Fe rule or something. I think it's just a case of Belichick pushing it and pushing it until the refs will actually start calling it.

The rest of the league has to start running these plays as well, because its pretty much impossible to stop in certain coverages.

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+10000000000

We they have not done so is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by AFCBeast

That's actually a pretty easy answer. Players age. Spygate happened in 2007 and a significant portion of the group of players from the Patriots glory days were at the end of their respective careers and/or had moved on to other teams via free agency.

That Championship core essentially existed from 2001 to 2007. Even 2007 was very different from 2004, at least on offense.

2008-2010 were rebuilding years for the Patriots which I'd say they executed rather well. Not only are they back near the top of the league (AFC Champions last year and still alive to win it all this year) but they rebuilt their team on the fly without ever suffering through a losing season. Damn, they never even lost less than 10 games.

Love them or hate them, they are the model franchise in this league. You have to respect what they've accomplished.

I don't know if Brady is the best QB ever but he's definitely in the discussion. I will agree, however, that the resume of accomplishments he's achieved (Titles, wins, stats, etc...) is probably on its way towards becoming the most impressive resume of all time. It's a team sport though so its difficult to compare these guys in absolute terms.

I've always been a critic of Marino who I feel is/was extremely over-rated. Outside of his first 2-3 years, he was mostly mediocre. Far too many games where he simply stunk up the joint. Marino could sling the ball with the best of them but his decision making was always suspect. There are key points in games where the decisions a QB makes will determine whether they convert the 3rd down or punt the ball away. These 3rd downs play a huge role in determining winners and losers. When I look at Marino's playoff failures, I don't see a guy who played lights out football but whose teammates let him down. Instead, I see a guy who put up some of his worst performances in the biggest games he played. Similar to Peyton Manning, I think.

I think the debate for best ever consists of Montana, Brady, Staubach (who everyone always forgets), and perhaps a few players I never saw play in person, like Unitas and Otto Graham.

I don't put Elway in that b/c he was never very consistent but I do think he was the most clutch QB I've ever seen. Nobody ran the two minute offense any better than John Elway. Now that I think of it, Elway is actually very similar to Eli Manning. Very streaky but when he's on, nobody's better.

That's my two cents. I hope this was a quality first post.

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The fact that will never go away is that Montana, Bradshaw, Elway, Marino etc etc all played under MUCH MUCH MUCH more duress than Brady. Because of that he will probably not ever be considered the greatest of all time. That being said he is the greatest of OUR time.

the patriots take advantage of whatever the rules allow them. that's something every other nfl team can do if they chose. well maybe the jets can't because sanchez can't even get a play called in short order. the point is the hurry up makes sense in that it keeps the defenses from substituting and in getting in the right set for the offense. the other thing is that their oline collectively knows how to play the game. no doubt they hold or on the verge of holding more than any other team but it works. they seem to always block down and take their dline guy with them. this keeps the los low so the qb has a clear field of vision. and they do use picks by at least flooding areas with receivers and then breaking them apart. give them credit for learning how to run routes and the way the game needs to be played. as for overall pysical talent, they're not greater than any other nfl team. brady doesn't have a really good arm and he gets tired but he is decisive and always seems to hit the open guy.

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Originally Posted by Dunnie

The fact that will never go away is that Montana, Bradshaw, Elway, Marino etc etc all played under MUCH MUCH MUCH more duress than Brady. Because of that he will probably not ever be considered the greatest of all time. That being said he is the greatest of OUR time.

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Even excluding the fact that those quarterbacks played before the salary cap and free agency era, Tom Brady's numbers are considerably better than both Marino's and Bradshaw's, even when adjusting for the era they played in. For instance, Brady's career passer rating is 19% better than the NFL average passer rating in the period he has played in, while Dan Marino's is just 13% better. Joe Montana is a guy who's adjusted stats mirror Brady's almost perfectly, but he essentially played with a super team, full of stars at pretty much every position.

I still think Joe is the greatest ever, but if Brady wins a fourth ring and has better volume passing stats, holds every significant playoff record, and wins more football games, it's be hard to make an argument against him.

The stats are easier to get these days. The rings are tougher.

The rules make it easier for the qb as we've seen this explosion in the last few years.

The rings are harder to get than the old dynasties though. Free agency and salary cap even the field a bit. From Montana through Young, the 49ers were stable. Yes, players retired and new ones came but the roster turnover didn't happen overnight. I think there where only 5 or so players on that Patriots 07 team that had played in the 01 game.

Sustaining success with everyone competing with the same dollars and success meaning worse draft picks, makes maintaining good teams a difficult task.

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Originally Posted by PMarsico9

If the Pats win this year, I will view Brady as better than Bradshaw, but I still won't rank him higher than Montana. Just so we're clear.

I'm not that concerned about your Pats winning this year, though. Another year for Jones and Hightower and some more upgrades to your defense this off-season and I may view them differently.

I had a bit of a realization on the way home, though:

The issue is really the inferiority complex that Bostonians have. It's why there's so many Pats fans on Jetsinsider.

Maybe a good move would be to go share your thoughts about the missed grasp call on the Giants boards, since, you know, at least they are relevant.

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Boston/NY WTF, how many posters actually live in Boston. And the team plays closer to RI where I live than Boston. I wouldn't live in either city.

They are not a lot of patriot Posters on this board, I would not think more than a dozen and probably none of them live in the city.. Just because you can't say crap and not get called on it, don't start crying that you think some posters don't belong here.

Sooth has a forum for the jet fans that rather not interact with patriot fans or fans of any other team.

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Originally Posted by Dunnie

The fact that will never go away is that Montana, Bradshaw, Elway, Marino etc etc all played under MUCH MUCH MUCH more duress than Brady. Because of that he will probably not ever be considered the greatest of all time. That being said he is the greatest of OUR time.

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I agree with you on Bradshaw as the PI rules were totally different and at the beginning of his career the pass blocking rules were different. But the other guys you notice that the changes in the game were already in place. The slight changes made since 2006 5 yard bump rule and hitting high and low are reflected in the total yards etc. But wins are wins, SB are SB.

I have been following football for over 40 years

1. Montana
2. Marino
3. Unitas
4. Brady
5. Manning
6. Elway
7. Staubach
8. Bradshaw
9. Tarkenton
10. Young/Fouts/Kelly etc

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Originally Posted by rodderick

Even excluding the fact that those quarterbacks played before the salary cap and free agency era, Tom Brady's numbers are considerably better than both Marino's and Bradshaw's, even when adjusting for the era they played in. For instance, Brady's career passer rating is 19% better than the NFL average passer rating in the period he has played in, while Dan Marino's is just 13% better. Joe Montana is a guy who's adjusted stats mirror Brady's almost perfectly, but he essentially played with a super team, full of stars at pretty much every position.

I still think Joe is the greatest ever, but if Brady wins a fourth ring and has better volume passing stats, holds every significant playoff record, and wins more football games, it's be hard to make an argument against him.

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One thing to consider about Montana who I've always believed to be the best. In his time, he was the only QB using the west coast offense, which emphasizes passing efficiency through the use of short passes. That kind of explains the disparity between his passing efficiency numbers and that of his peers who played for teams that had not yet adapted.

Today, the principles of that offense have been absorbed within every team's offensive system. This is a very large contributing factor in why QB ratings have shot through the roof over the past 15-20 years. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense that passing efficiency ratings would soar after an emphasis is placed on increasing the efficiency of the passing game.

Every QB who played for the 49ers in that era (Montana, Young, Bono, Grbac) benefited from that system, along with playing with players like Jerry Rice of course.

I mention this b/c offensive systems do play a large role in a players success. I'm convinced that NO QB succeeds in a vacuum. How much young talent has been wasted simply b/c they were drafted by teams with mediocre or poor offensive coaching personnel? I believe that number is pretty large.

Tom Brady, like Montana, benefits from a very creative/adaptable offensive system. Unlike his critics though, I don't believe that's a knock on him. The coaching he's received at this level allowed him to make up whatever gap existed between himself and the Mannings of the world.

Peyton benefited from having a Heisman trophy winning father who played QB in the NFL for a long time. That allowed him to begin his NFL career at a much higher level than Brady. To Brady's credit though, Brady's work ethic and ability to absorb the coaching he's received in New England has allowed him to skyrocket upwards and not only catch Manning but surpass him as well....I would argue by a lot actually.

I don't think this is really all that surprising. Imagine two star pupils. Pupil A has a much better teacher for the first 20 years of his life and appears to be the better pupil. Then pupil B begins learning from not only a great teacher but perhaps one of the greatest teachers ever. Suddenly pupil B's trajectory spikes upwards. After four years some people start thinking pupil B has caught up to pupil A but most still believe pupil A has the advantage. But pupil B doesn't stop working with that amazing teacher. Instead he continues to study with him for 10+ more years. At some point in that time, pupil B passes pupil A.

While some critics will unwisely spin this as some kind of detraction of Brady's greatness, I believe their logic is upside down. The reason that this doesn't detract from Brady's greatness is because once you learn from the best, the knowledge and skills gained becomes your own. In other words, its impossible to take away all that he's already learned.

In my opinion its not just a coincidence that the two best QB's in NFL history (Brady/Montana) were both coached by individuals who not only stood atop the NFL's coaching fraternity but were also renowned for their abilities as teachers.