Questions about Turkey

[The Turk]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]It seems lately every thread I post in becomes partly about Turkey, so I did not want to hijack another thread and decided to open this one. There was an article quoted in the thread about inventing moderate islam and because of that some questions were raised about Turkish-Israeli relations. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I'll try to explain the Turkish side of events and adress the percieved islamification of Turkey and if you guys have any questions I'll try to answer them here.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This was the original quoted article:[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][URL="http://www.bitterlemons-international.org/inside.php?id=1276"][COLOR=#800080]http://www.bitterlemons-international.org/inside.php?id=1276[/COLOR][/URL][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana](BTW Thank you Doggin)[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]and these are the issues which I assume Warfish was expecting a comment from me:[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][QUOTE=Warfish;3696925]I especially found these two (non-bolded) sections of interest:[/QUOTE][/FONT][/COLOR]

[QUOTE]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Erdogan's rhetoric against Israel, often in the name of Turkish honor, has become inflammatory and at times anti-Semitic. The hypocrisy informing his regional policies is particularly evident in the ongoing friction with Turkish Kurds and the refusal to come to terms with the Armenian genocide, even as Erdogan shrilly condemns Israel for its attitude toward the Palestinians. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]All of this seemingly culminated in the recent flotilla incident. A Turkish Islamist group with close ties to the government sought to spearhead contacts with Hamas and laid a violent propaganda ambush that Israel walked into with eyes wide open. Now Ankara demands apologies and reparations and threatens to seriously downgrade relations. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]First a disclaimer: Turkish-Israeli relations are very wide and I am by no means an expert. I'm just going to let you know how it looks from this side of the table. This is not intended to be an objective critique of the situation.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Ok then:[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The second paragraph Warfish quoted starts with a crucial sentence. "[I][U][FONT=Verdana]All of this seemingly culminated in the recent flotilla incident." [/FONT][/U][/I][/FONT][/COLOR]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]I agree 100%. The flotilla debacle – from which both Israel and Turkey emerged in the wrong IMHO – should not be regarded as a stand alone incident. The relations between Turkey and Israel have been deteriorating for a while now. Here’s what the Israeli daily Haaretz says about the originating point of the tension.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[QUOTE]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The change did not happen because of the victory of the Justice and Development Party and the election of Recep Tayyip Erdogan as prime minister. That party has been in power since 2002, and despite the dark prophecies that accompanied its rise to power, relations between the two countries continued normally. Turkey’s anger exploded when its prime minister felt betrayed by former prime minister Ehud Olmert, who allowed Turkey to try to mediate between Israel and Hamas on the eve of Operation Cast Lead. Turkey realized then that Israel considers it a given; that it has to agree with all of Israel’s whims. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][URL="http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/turkey-is-not-an-enemy-1.294203"][COLOR=#800080]http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/turkey-is-not-an-enemy-1.294203[/COLOR][/URL][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]As Haaretz points out the current “Islamist” government has been in power – by itself which is a rarity in Turkish politics it’s the first non-coalition government since the 80’s - since 2002. From 2002 to the start of operation cast lead in 2008 the relationship was strong as ever. I don’t want to argue the merits of that operation but what was considered betrayal of Turkey by Israel is not the fact that Israel did the operation but how it was done. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]At the time Turkey was trying to mediate between Hamas and Israel. Then prime minister Ehud Olmert was in Turkey literally one day before operation cast lead started to meet with Erdogan regarding the situation with Hamas. He gave no warning that the talks would be severed and a military operation was going to commence. Of course Israel doesn’t have to give Turkey the details of every military exercise they undertake but regarding this one they gave Egypt a heads up while leaving Turkey out in the cold looking like an idiot or worse Israel’s lackey, in that the perception amongst the arabs originally was that Turkey as Israel’s ally was just keeping Hamas occupied while Israel put in place the necessary ground work for the operation. It undermined everything that Turkey was trying to do in the region. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]After that incident there was a spewing of mindless rhetoric and childish games of trying to humiliate the other side by both sides. You probably know the Davos - one minute walk off, there was also some TV shows in Turkey that painted Israeli soldiers in a very bad light, Israel’s foreign minister called the Turkish ambassador and insulted him in front of the press and in Hebrew so that he wouldn’t understand and react immediately, Israel tried to give subtle messages that it was willing to step on our toes by threatening to recognize the Armenian genocide and provide support to Kurdish terrorists etc.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]and now we come back to the sentence in the beginning:[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]"[I][U][FONT=Verdana]All of this seemingly culminated in the recent flotilla incident." [/FONT][/U][/I][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]As to the flotilla incident. By no stretch of the imagination was it a popular undertaking that was supported by a majority of the population in Turkey. Even after the incident itself the is still a minority that believes Israel was right to kill those people. These are all political opponents of Erdogan who will oppose anything and everthing he does no matter what.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Personally, as I said before both Israel and Turkey was in the wrong in that debacle. I think we should have seen this coming and prevented it, but nonetheless I also believe Israel killing 9 unarmed civilians in international waters is unacceptable. There are many ways of crowd control, they could’ve used tasers, rubber bullets, stun grenades etc. I cannot believe that highly trained commandos were left no choice but to kill unarmed (except if you count kitchen knives) civilians in self defense. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I am a very pro-Israeli Turk. I’ve always defended Israels right to self defense, and maintained that as long as the Palestinians used terrorist tactics they were no more then just that: terrorists. I still believe this. However, now I also believe Israel is suffering from a collective paranoia. Admittedly some of this paranoia is justified, but if it alienates the few friends it does have, in the long run Israel is the one that going to suffer. The cold hard truth is Israel needs us more then we need them. It has no real allies except the US, it is surrounded by hostile countries, it lacks natural resources – most importantly water –. whereas we only get arms from them which we can get from other sources like US, Europe even Russia. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The point is we have not been friends with Israel for 50 years because we had to. It was because we wanted to. There was always opposition from the islamist radicals (which I’d put at at least 5% and at most 15% of the total population in Turkey) but the overwhelming majority was supportive of the close alliance with Israel. Why? Mostly because we always believed that Israelis were more trustworthy allies then Arabs. Throughout history Turks have always gotten along with Jews, there has never been any significant anti-semitism in Turkey or the Ottoman empire. And we always appreciated the support we’ve received in the west from Jewish organizations and Israel itself. We actually felt very close to Israel because of our mutual distrust of the Arabs. Now we’re going through a period of crises because the notion that we can trust Israel has been harmed significantly. Now even the most determined pro-Israeli Turks expect at least a show of remorse and respect from Israel. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I think – or at least I hope - that in time we will get past this and begin to heal the wounds but it’s going to take time and the first step will have to come from Israel.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Now, about the perception in the west about Erdogan’s islamist intentions and his aspirations to take Turkey into an alliance with Iran, Syria etc. I see that this is mostly fueled by the flotilla debacle and the Iranian deal which we brokered with Brasil. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]First off you are not alone in your doubts about him, a significant (roughly %30-35) portion of the Turkish population shares your mistrust and utterly despises him for it. Personally I am not of this view. I believe him when he says his party is the muslim version of Germany’s “CDU” Christian Democrats nothing more nothing less, i.e. he is a devout muslim, but he is not a radical that wants to do away with democracy or bring us under Sheria rule. This is not to say I agree with everything he does or says, but as an atheist liberal democrat (in a European sense of the word) I do agree with most of what he says.. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Why is he not recognizing Hamas as a terrorist organization or talking with Iran? [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]He, the president and the foreign minister drastically changed Turkish foreign policy a couple of years ago. The originally quoted article alluded to this more proactive foreign policy. Some examples:[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Before Erdogan Turkey supported the local hardliners in Cyprus who were staunchly opposed to any reunification with Greeks and just wanted to continue the status quo. Now Erdogan sometimes almost orders the Turkish Cypriot side to continue talking to find a solution saying that the status quo is not sustainable and peace must be achieved. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Before Erdogan our relations with Armenia was bad at best almost belligerent at worst. After Erdogan there has been talk of opening the border to Armenia, our president has gone on an unofficial visit there for the first time and their president has come here. Although far from ideal there has been progress, at the expense of our relations with Azerbeijan. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The rapprochement with Greece itself started before Erdogan but he continued the process and even gained some momentum. Our economic and political relations with the Greeks has never been better. Considering we almost went to war over an uninhabited piece of rock in 1996 this is quite an achievement.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]His foreign policy is communication with everyone – except terrorists. (Altough there are rumors in the Turkish press that he is even engaged in dialogue with the PKK – he denies this.) This includes Iran, Syria and yes even in his eyes Hamas. I admit Hamas can be classified as a terrorist organization and thus should be excluded but he seems to be of the view that any peace that has not been signed off on by Hamas will not be a lasting one. That’s why he has tried to mediate between Israel an Hamas. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Similarly with Iran. There is an impasse. The west - specifically the US - and Iran won’t talk to each other. But there are problems that must be solved. So he takes it upon his government to mediate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Can you see a pattern developing? He is mending relations with the traditional “enemies” of Turkey like Greece, Armenia, Iran even if it means some deterioration of relations with its allies like US, Israel, Azerbeijan. I believe he is doing this not because he has decided to make Turkey another Syria or Iran but he sincerely believes that he can achieve results because of the unique position of Turkey in that it has open lines of communication with everyone. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Even at home;He has made numerous political overtures to the non-muslim minorities and Kurds despite immense backlash from the nationalists, and the old Kemalist hardliners. during his government the first Kurdish language state run TV has started, just last week there was a mass at Sümela monastery for the first time in close to 100 years, there has been talk of reopening the orthodox clerical school in Heybeliada, he attended in person the reopening of Jewish temples in Istanbul that were attacked by terrorists, and he has changed the census law which required the field of religion on the identity card to be filled in (there were riots in Greece when the left demanded this over there) saying that no one should have to declare his beliefs to the state. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]There is a constitutional referendum in Turkey on the 12th of September. Erdogan’s party wants to change the constitution while the opposition seeks to block it. The opinion leaders of the Turkish-Armenians, Turkish Jews and Turkish Greeks almost all have expressed support for the changes. You think these people would like to live in another Iran?[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This is not to say that everything in Turkey is perfect and Erdogan has done everything right. I’ve just tried to show you why a perceived islamist got more then 40% of the votes in Turkey, and its not because we are all becoming mullahs.[/FONT][/COLOR]


And if you've read all of this congratulations.

[Jungle Shift Jet]

[QUOTE=The Turk;3698424] *SNIP*

And if you've read all of this congratulations.[/QUOTE]

Somehow I have this mental picture of a chain-smoking, stubbled journo with a few dusky kohl-eyed Barbara Eden types passed out on a divan hurriedly bashing out this note and sending it over the wire to us while mullahs are banging down the door armed w/ AK-47s ready to stifle the truth. And truth be told, much of your missive is informative.

But I believe there's a few crucial things being left out as well. 1st, it seems that saving face publicly in the ME as well as the rest of Asia is almost as important as doing the right thing morally. Olmert was extremely inept/corrupt, and ultimately exited as a result of his bumbling. But what was Turkey expecting to achieve peace-wise re: the greenhouse-busting, rocket-launching Hamas?

And Haaretz? Really? The paper whose name means Submission in English? (j/k )The paper so liberal that makes the Jerusalem Post look like the NY Post? According to their story, all Israel has to do is leave Hamas be and Turkey will slip their friendship toe ring back on, happily bang the [B][I]zils[/I][/B] & Gaza will turn into Woodstock without the brown acid. :P If you believe that I have not 1 but 2 bridges in Istanbul for sale as well. Meanwhile Israeli tourists are staying away in droves so much so Turkey has to advertise itself on American TV!

Anyway I do have some questions re the Kurds (Whey! No, way! No way! WAY!) that I'm unsure about. The traditional Kurdish people, who are they ethnically exactly? Part Roma, part Bedouin, part mutant? Why is there such enmity in Turkey proper w/ them? We know they have committed random acts of terror for whatever idiotic reasons, (like the Puerto Ricans used to do here) yet Iraq-wise, they have been grateful for their semi-liberation.

While in the ME boundaries are both natural and artificial, their native homeland seems to extend across Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran. Why would a Kurdistan of any size or federation in and out of Iraq be bad, or good. I've refrained from doing any research because I would like your opinion and elucidation; even if your answer is very deprecating towards them I appreciate it in advance.

[Warfish]

Great thread idea Turk.

Agree or disagree on specific issues, you bring a much needed outsiders perspective to our little sub-community.

I hope this thread can be revisted from time to time, when events or issues involve Turkey or it's neighbors.

[JetPotato]

Care to address Armenian genocide, and both the US and Turkish governments' little brushing of that piece of history under the carpet?

[Warfish]

[QUOTE=JetPotato;3700998]Care to address Armenian genocide, and both the US and Turkish governments' little brushing of that piece of history under the carpet?[/QUOTE]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide[/url]

[The Turk]

[QUOTE=Jungle Shift Jet;3700887] Somehow I have this mental picture of a chain-smoking, stubbled journo with a few dusky kohl-eyed Barbara Eden types passed out on a divan hurriedly bashing out this note and sending it over the wire to us while mullahs are banging down the door armed w/ AK-47s ready to stifle the truth. And truth be told, much of your missive is informative.

[B]But I believe there's a few crucial things being left out as well. [/B]1st, it seems that saving face publicly in the ME as well as the rest of Asia is almost as important as doing the right thing morally. Olmert was extremely inept/corrupt, and ultimately exited as a result of his bumbling. But what was Turkey expecting to achieve peace-wise re: the greenhouse-busting, rocket-launching Hamas?

And Haaretz? Really? The paper whose name means Submission in English? (j/k )The paper so liberal that makes the Jerusalem Post look like the NY Post? According to their story, all Israel has to do is leave Hamas be and Turkey will slip their friendship toe ring back on, happily bang the [B][I]zils[/I][/B] & Gaza will turn into Woodstock without the brown acid. :P If you believe that I have not 1 but 2 bridges in Istanbul for sale as well. Meanwhile Israeli tourists are staying away in droves so much so Turkey has to advertise itself on American TV! [/QUOTE]


After that post the last thing I expected was a criticism that it was to short, LOL.

Re: Israel I said from the start that my post was not meant to be an objective third person's point of view. I'm not a third person, I live here, I did my mandatory military duty about 200 kilometres from the Iraqi border, I've had friends die while doing their military duty so that is as detached as I can get.


You're right saving face is very important in these parts. Your word is literally your bond. Why do you think the Turks hate the arabs so much? It's because we don't trust them. We know that their word is not worth camel **** and treat them accordingly. However what I talked about in the previous post wasn't about saving face just for the sake of saving face but losing credibility. The arabs don't like us but they listen to us, they know that if we say something we'll back it up. We threatened Syria with war in 98 if it didn't get Abdullah Ocalan out of Damascus, within a couple of months he became a hot potatoe being passed around europe like a drunk passed out coed in a fraternity house. So yes it is important that people listen when we talk. Israel's actions undermined that credibility.


[QUOTE=Jungle Shift Jet;3700887] Anyway I do have some questions re the Kurds (Whey! No, way! No way! WAY!) that I'm unsure about. The traditional Kurdish people, who are they ethnically exactly? Part Roma, part Bedouin, part mutant? Why is there such enmity in Turkey proper w/ them? We know they have committed random acts of terror for whatever idiotic reasons, (like the Puerto Ricans used to do here) yet Iraq-wise, they have been grateful for their semi-liberation.

While in the ME boundaries are both natural and artificial, their native homeland seems to extend across Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran. Why would a Kurdistan of any size or federation in and out of Iraq be bad, or good. I've refrained from doing any research because I would like your opinion and elucidation; even if your answer is very deprecating towards them I appreciate it in advance. [/QUOTE]

Re:The Kurds.

I have to underline that I have no animosity whatsoever towards the Kurdish people. However I do harbor seriously ill intentions towards the PKK, two very different things.

As for their origin I'm not sure what you're asking they're kurds. We're Turks, Russians are russians and they're kurds. I've never researched this but I'd wager that they are most closely related to us and the persians. But because they've never had an independant Kurdish State you're having trouble placing them anywhere.

Why is there enmity towards them? I wouldn't say that the Turks have any enmity towards the kurds, have they been oppressed yes but the thing is oppression was not specific to Kurds in Turkey.

(I'm trying to keep it short but I have to give you background info...)

I know that in the eyes of the world we are still the ottomans, without the funny hats. But when the empire crumbled and the Republic emerged the Turkish people were the least nationally conscious peoples of the former empire. We were the muslim subjects of the Sultan not Turks and we didn't know how to be Turks, or even what being a Turk meant. That began with the jeuneturks most of whom were educated in France and amongst them Atatürk, the founder of the republic.

At that time there were changes so fundamental to the society it's unimaginable now.

- We changed our alphabet from arabian script to western script
- We abrogated the caliphate (Because of which we are close third after you and Israel in the list of infidels of the radical muslims)
- We outlawed eastern clothing, religious sects etc.
- We reformed our legal system,
- We became secular,etc.


In short it was nation building. Part of this was the creation of a national consciousness. Building peoples pride in their national heritage. This of course meant to a certain extent the oppression of non-Turkish peoples.


After the 1980 coup d'etat a general famously said that: " There is no such things as kurds. They are mountain turks. Because they live on the mountains and walk on snowy terrain their footsteps make saunds like "kart-kurt" hence they are called kurds. Whilst this dunce was making this shameful statement kurds, leftists, nationalists and liberals (i.e. everyone who was not a kemalist) was being rounded up and torchered in prisons. (I'm not getting into the reasons for the coup here I have to leave some things out).

Now this is one part of the story, this is not to say the kurds were just peace loving citizens and the big bad Turk oppressed them mercilessly.

The kurds revolt against their rulers every 50 years or so. Even in the ottoman times there were several kurdish revolts for independance. Now as you can imagine no country in the world willingly grants independance to a part of its population, and Turkey is no exception. So everytime they revolted, we beat them back.

In the 1980's the PKK was formed by a man named Abdullah Ocalan. It's a marxist terrorist organization seeking independence from Turkey. The war against them has been going on for 30 years now and the death toll is estimated at around 30.000 terrorists and 10.000 Turkish soldiers.

This is the reason of animosity towards PKK and its symphatizers.

What the west always told us was "well yes they are terrorists but you are oppressing them" which was true to an extent as I said. Therefore the government of Turgut Ozal in the late 1980's and this government has taken steps to include the kurds in the political system (they are represented in the Turkish Parliment and they have many municipalities), recognize their cultural heritage (first the private kurdish language courses came, then a state run kurdish lang. TV, and last week a minister spoke kurdish in front of the press which was unthinkable just a few years ago).

Here's an indicator for you: no turkish mainstream political party ever received the majority of votes in the southeast until Erdogan's party. I admit this is due partly to their devout muslim stance but it is also partly due to their openness towards the Kurds. They are actually beating the kurdish party in some kurdish enclaves.

The nationalists and the Kemalists on the other hand hate the governemnt with a passion because of this. They call him a traitor every day.

Why are we against a "Kurdistan" in Iraq? Simple, because that will make it harder for us to keep our country a whole. Once they get their independence they will start to look towards "unification". That is not acceptable for Turkey.

[The Turk]

[QUOTE=JetPotato;3700998]Care to address Armenian genocide, and both the US and Turkish governments' little brushing of that piece of history under the carpet?[/QUOTE]


What do you want me to say? It is a shameful period of our history.

[Jungle Shift Jet]

[QUOTE=The Turk;3701180]After that post the last thing I expected was a criticism that it was to short, LOL.

Re: Israel I said from the start that my post was not meant to be an objective third person's point of view. I'm not a third person, I live here, I did my mandatory military duty about 200 kilometres from the Iraqi border, I've had friends die while doing their military duty so that is as detached as I can get.


You're right saving face is very important in these parts. Your word is literally your bond. Why do you think the Turks hate the arabs so much? It's because we don't trust them. We know that their word is not worth camel **** and treat them accordingly. However what I talked about in the previous post wasn't about saving face just for the sake of saving face but losing credibility. The arabs don't like us but they listen to us, they know that if we say something we'll back it up. We threatened Syria with war in 98 if it didn't get Abdullah Ocalan out of Damascus, within a couple of months he became a hot potatoe being passed around europe like a drunk passed out coed in a fraternity house. So yes it is important that people listen when we talk. Israel's actions undermined that credibility.




Re:The Kurds.

I have to underline that I have no animosity whatsoever towards the Kurdish people. However I do harbor seriously ill intentions towards the PKK, two very different things.

As for their origin I'm not sure what you're asking they're kurds. We're Turks, Russians are russians and they're kurds. I've never researched this but I'd wager that they are most closely related to us and the persians. But because they've never had an independant Kurdish State you're having trouble placing them anywhere.

Why is there enmity towards them? I wouldn't say that the Turks have any enmity towards the kurds, have they been oppressed yes but the thing is oppression was not specific to Kurds in Turkey.

(I'm trying to keep it short but I have to give you background info...)

I know that in the eyes of the world we are still the ottomans, without the funny hats. But when the empire crumbled and the Republic emerged the Turkish people were the least nationally conscious peoples of the former empire. We were the muslim subjects of the Sultan not Turks and we didn't know how to be Turks, or even what being a Turk meant. That began with the jeuneturks most of whom were educated in France and amongst them Atatürk, the founder of the republic.

At that time there were changes so fundamental to the society it's unimaginable now.

- We changed our alphabet from arabian script to western script
- We abrogated the caliphate (Because of which we are close third after you and Israel in the list of infidels of the radical muslims)
- We outlawed eastern clothing, religious sects etc.
- We reformed our legal system,
- We became secular,etc.


In short it was nation building. Part of this was the creation of a national consciousness. Building peoples pride in their national heritage. This of course meant to a certain extent the oppression of non-Turkish peoples.


After the 1980 coup d'etat a general famously said that: " There is no such things as kurds. They are mountain turks. Because they live on the mountains and walk on snowy terrain their footsteps make saunds like "kart-kurt" hence they are called kurds. Whilst this dunce was making this shameful statement kurds, leftists, nationalists and liberals (i.e. everyone who was not a kemalist) was being rounded up and torchered in prisons. (I'm not getting into the reasons for the coup here I have to leave some things out).

Now this is one part of the story, this is not to say the kurds were just peace loving citizens and the big bad Turk oppressed them mercilessly.

The kurds revolt against their rulers every 50 years or so. Even in the ottoman times there were several kurdish revolts for independance. Now as you can imagine no country in the world willingly grants independance to a part of its population, and Turkey is no exception. So everytime they revolted, we beat them back.

In the 1980's the PKK was formed by a man named Abdullah Ocalan. It's a marxist terrorist organization seeking independence from Turkey. The war against them has been going on for 30 years now and the death toll is estimated at around 30.000 terrorists and 10.000 Turkish soldiers.

This is the reason of animosity towards PKK and its symphatizers.

What the west always told us was "well yes they are terrorists but you are oppressing them" which was true to an extent as I said. Therefore the government of Turgut Ozal in the late 1980's and this government has taken steps to include the kurds in the political system (they are represented in the Turkish Parliment and they have many municipalities), recognize their cultural heritage (first the private kurdish language courses came, then a state run kurdish lang. TV, and last week a minister spoke kurdish in front of the press which was unthinkable just a few years ago).

Here's an indicator for you: no turkish mainstream political party ever received the majority of votes in the southeast until Erdogan's party. I admit this is due partly to their devout muslim stance but it is also partly due to their openness towards the Kurds. They are actually beating the kurdish party in some kurdish enclaves.

The nationalists and the Kemalists on the other hand hate the governemnt with a passion because of this. They call him a traitor every day.

Why are we against a "Kurdistan" in Iraq? Simple, because that will make it harder for us to keep our country a whole. Once they get their independence they will start to look towards "unification". That is not acceptable for Turkey.[/QUOTE]

"Who Flew?" "Who Knew?"

That's a excellent review, The T. We are starting to have the same Kurdish-type problem here ourselves over the mythical "Aztlan", but isn't a semi-autonomous Iraqi Kurdistan already a done deal?

What many over here see is that the Fakeistinians are not really a legitimate people or political entity, but a hairshirt (or worse) crafted from Egyptian and Jordanian nationals meant to permanently and at best irritate and at worst terrorize Israel, all legitimized by the UN.

Without even considering the similar cases of "Nasty" to the north decamped in Lebanon or Fatah, Israel, more or less abandoned Gaza not to a democracy or even a benevolent dictatorship but a hostile, militant city-state with that militancy funded in perpetuity by petro-$ from Iran, SA etc. and "humanitarian" aid from the West.

Q1: What kind of guidance or incentive could Turkey give to an extremely intransigent Gaza to make even a temporary, cold peace?

Q2: If Israel acted in "Cast Lead" w/ Turkey's full knowledge, how would Turkey have been judged by the less moderate nations? Acquiescent? Supportive? Neutral?

[JetPotato]

[QUOTE=The Turk;3701352]What do you want me to say? It is a shameful period of our history.[/QUOTE]

Obviously. Not looking for you to apologize or anything. Just curious on a hometown perspective. And not so muchon That it happened, but how little it is known (at least here) or really acknowledged by the govt. Obama in fact answered a question during the campaign regarding the US pressuring Turkey to do so, making some type of failed promise. Let me see if I can locate it somewhere...

[The Turk]

[QUOTE=Jungle Shift Jet;3701447] "Who Flew?" "Who Knew?"

That's a excellent review, The T. We are starting to have the same Kurdish-type problem here ourselves over the mythical "Aztlan", but isn't a semi-autonomous Iraqi Kurdistan already a done deal?

What many over here see is that the Fakeistinians are not really a legitimate people or political entity, but a hairshirt (or worse) crafted from Egyptian and Jordanian nationals meant to permanently and at best irritate and at worst terrorize Israel, all legitimized by the UN.

Without even considering the similar cases of "Nasty" to the north decamped in Lebanon or Fatah, Israel, more or less abandoned Gaza not to a democracy or even a benevolent dictatorship but a hostile, militant city-state with that militancy funded in perpetuity by petro-$ from Iran, SA etc. and "humanitarian" aid from the West. [/QUOTE]

First off thank you and mind you these are all my personal opinions and some of them are in by no means very popular in Turkey.

Yes, a semi-autonomous Iraqi Kurdistan is a done deal (which was exactly the reason we refused to help US before the war started BTW), what we are now trying to prevent is full fledged independence. Like Jordan, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar, S.A. etc. Iraq was always an artificial state, there is no "Iraqi people" they are arabs, kurds, turkomans, and persians living within british drawn borders therefore after you guys leave for good these people will most likely start to kill each other and there'll be a civil war. After which in all likelyhood there'll be some sort of Kurdish state in the north.

Then we'll either have a problem or a friendly neighbor to the south that will be dependant upon us to get its oil to the markets of the west.

As I mentioned previously the kurds are an oppressed people, but the least oppressed people are - or at least were until the new Iraq (read kurdistan) - the Turkish kurds. Both Iran and Iraq have been brutal in killing them and trying to strip them of their identity. This is why there has always been a steady Kurdish population flow [I][U]towards[/U][/I] Turkey from those two countries, even though we were far from perfect.

Now If we become an even more democratic and modern nation that treats the Kurds as equals I see no reason why we would have any problems with our new neigbors. However if we fall back into militaristic ways again then the kurds that were stuck in no mans land when there was Saddam to the south would have a logistical base as well as probably open backing of another state. That recipe might lead to a war in the long run and I wonder what the US will do if two of its biggest allies in the region go to war?

While we're on the subject - from a Turkish point of view - this is primarily why we feel betrayed by the US.

Imagine this scenario;

Your Aztlans - I assume people with some sort of connection to Mexico, if not let it be for the sake of arguement. and again for the sake of arguement let's assume the population of your SW states are mostly astlan as well as the majority population of northern Mexico - have been revolting for 30 years. The states of New Mexico, Texas and Arizona are under martial law. You've lost 10.000 US soldiers in the conflict. You have an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" type of deal going on with the dictator of Mexico.

However we have a problem with Mexico. Adn one day we decide that we will invade it for whatever reasons, and to do that we will use the Astlans as our natural allies within.

What would US sentiment be against Turkey in this hypothetical?

I don't understand your comment re: the palestinians you think they are really Egyptians and Jordaninans? :huh:


[QUOTE=Jungle Shift Jet;3701447]Q1: What kind of guidance or incentive could Turkey give to an extremely intransigent Gaza to make even a temporary, cold peace? [/QUOTE]

Peace is an incentive in and of itself don't you think?

Look as much as you want to believe that all muslims are maniacs hell bent on killing themselves for the virgins in heaven this is not so. For some yes but most are just people.

This is the first premise that both the Israelis and Palestinians have to agree on. They have been fighting for so long that they no longer see the enemy as human. Both sides look at each other and only see their own dead, and the "animals" that killed him/her.

While we on the other hand are the only nation that looks at both Israel and Palestine and do not define one or the other as enemy.


[QUOTE=Jungle Shift Jet;3701447] Q2: If Israel acted in "Cast Lead" w/ Turkey's full knowledge, how would Turkey have been judged by the less moderate nations? Acquiescent? Supportive? Neutral? [/QUOTE]

Probably like it was always seen - as Israels best friend in the region. But more importantly Israel would not have given Erdogan a card to play the victim. He probably would have come out agaisnt the operation but he couldn't have become this quasi arabic folk hero overnight. It was a huge huge mistake on the part of Israel.

This is why sometimes the conspiracy theorist in me thinks this was all cooked up by Israel, Turkey and the US from the beginnig. Turkey was always seen as being firmly in Israel's corner in the dispute, which was true. But because we are the most sunni muslim nation the arab world listened to us more out of necessity then out of anything else. They didn't really trust us. Maybe this "falling out" is a carefully orchestrated process whereby we gain greater influence on the arabs and try to take the peace process forward.

I admit this not very likely but nothing would suprise me in middle eastern politics.

[The Turk]

[QUOTE=JetPotato;3701456]Obviously. Not looking for you to apologize or anything. Just curious on a hometown perspective. [B]And not so muchon That it happened, but how little it is known (at least here) or really acknowledged by the govt. [/B]Obama in fact answered a question during the campaign regarding the US pressuring Turkey to do so, making some type of failed promise. Let me see if I can locate it somewhere...[/QUOTE]

Why it is not acknowledged by your government is very simple:Turkey is much more important to you geo-politically then Armenia.

There are many more ethnic Armenians then ethnic Turks in the states so during local campaigning your politicans appease the Armenians. Then when they are elected into office they face the cold hard fact that the US would gain virtually nothing by recognizing the genocide but lose one of their key allies in the middle east.

Moreover once you recognize the genocide then you can no longer keep it over Turkey's head like the sword of democles. That's why no matter what is said on the campaign trail I don't expect the US to recognize the genocide until (i) Turkey becomes less important (ii) Armenia becomes more important or (ii) Turkey recognizes the genocide.