The Chevy Volt - You're paying to build it...and to investigate it

jetstream23 · 11-30-2011, 01:31 PM

So taxpayers are subsidizing the Chevy Volt to the tune of $7,000 per car so that people can use batteries instead of gasoline, all this from a nation currently in massive debt. Now that the batteries are beginning to explode, the Federal government's NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) is opening an investigation that will surely cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars.

Why subsidize this car at all? There are now several new subcompact cars with internal combustion engines that get over 40 mpg. The technology is better and gas engines are much more efficient than a decade ago.

If you get 40mpg on the highway with an internal combustion engine vehicle and spend 2/3 the price of an electric car, why not do it, as the analyst says in the video below. And, you don't have the refueling risk (i.e. where can I plug in to recharge on my trip into the suburbs?)

[url]http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000059507[/url]

bitonti · 11-30-2011, 03:27 PM

[QUOTE=jetstream23;4258231]
Why subsidize this car at all? [/QUOTE]

because we don't have to rely on Middle Easterners, Venezuelans or Nigerians to fuel it. it's as much an investment in national security as it is in energy.

AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite · 11-30-2011, 03:58 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti;4258378]because we don't have to rely on Middle Easterners, Venezuelans or Nigerians to fuel it. it's as much an investment in national security as it is in energy.[/QUOTE]

We don't have to rely on them now...

We have almost 140 billion barrels of oil (recoverable) that we have or can obtain access to...

Just so we're clear, that's two decades without a single dime spent on importation of foreign oil...

bitonti · 11-30-2011, 08:43 PM

[QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4258418]We don't have to rely on them now...

We have almost 140 billion barrels of oil (recoverable) that we have or can obtain access to...

Just so we're clear, that's two decades without a single dime spent on importation of foreign oil...[/QUOTE]

ok... and what happens after 2 decades are over.

we will need that for air fuel, plastics, military, trucking, etc.

we also will need solar.

majormajor42 · 11-30-2011, 10:33 PM

Our trade deficit due to Oil is about a billion dollars a day. There are also numerous subsidies for oil that add up to the billions. The typical response to this is "Let's end all subsidies! for the oil and the green stuff." I can't argue with that but I have no idea what happens to oil prices when the subsidies are ended.

the $7000 (isn't it $7500?) subsidy is on the first 200,000 so that totals $1.5B for each manufacturer. So GM will get this but Toyota and Nissan will get it too I think. So that's the bad news. Sending money to Japan is not a great thing but it beats some of the alternatives. GM is also going to sell PHEVs in Europe (and they mention China in the video, cool, didn't know that - hope they don't reverse engineer the thing) so that's trade surplus although I doubt it will balance things out.

Will costs come down enough so that by the time these companies have sold 200,000 cars, and the subsidy expires, they will still be affordable? Good question. So far these companies have only sold a few thousand PEVs and PHEVs so that point in time may be way off.

It also comes down to oil prices. Once you take the subsidy out of the equation, does the savings in gas equal the extra price of the car over, let's say, a five year period? Right now, even tough we are still close to a recession, oil is still near $100. Where do we see that number going? If they open up more oil fields -especially domestically/Canada? If the recession clearly ends and oil consumption goes way up again?

I was saying in another thread (about solar panels) that I don't own my own home. I live in a Condo so don't have a place to plug in. But if and when I do, and can have a garage or spot with a charger, I'm all in. With my 35 mile commute, I will be able to drive weeks without gassing up.

Oh, the thing about the battery problem. I think it is only well after the crash, like three weeks later it may catch fire. How big of a crash? the guy in the video say "extreme crash" so that sounds pretty bad. Now that they know this, you get in a crash, you check the battery as well as everything else just like you would in any other car after a crash. For anyone complaining about the costs of the investigation, I heard no such nonsense during the Firestone Tire issue on the Explorers. People just wanted answers about the problem.

Anyone that really wants to know more about the VOLT go to [URL="http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?7466-Poll-Volt-buyer-political-leanings"]their forum[/URL]. Plenty discuss things about the car that they aren't happy about but it is mostly positive.

This whole electric car thing is just getting started :alien:

cr726 · 11-30-2011, 10:57 PM

[QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4258418]We don't have to rely on them now...

We have almost 140 billion barrels of oil (recoverable) that we have or can obtain access to...

Just so we're clear, that's two decades without a single dime spent on importation of foreign oil...[/QUOTE]

20 whole years! Wow that's a relief.

AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite · 11-30-2011, 11:40 PM

[QUOTE=cr726;4258746]20 whole years! Wow that's a relief.[/QUOTE]

99% of countries with high usage of crude couldnt make it 20 years.

cr726 · 11-30-2011, 11:47 PM

[QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4258750]99% of countries with high usage of crude couldnt make it 20 years.[/QUOTE]

Even Saudi Arabia is preparing for running out of oil.

bitonti · 12-01-2011, 10:27 AM

[QUOTE=majormajor42;4258736]
It also comes down to oil prices. [/QUOTE]

+1

even with 140 billion barrells locally, it's a global market. getting the oil out of shale sands in America or in the desert in Saudi it's the same price when it hits the market.

If gasoline keeps going up in value (which it most likely will) then a solution like the volt makes sense. what doesn't make sense is the status quo.

We shouldn't risk recession because there's a war in some unstable oil producing country.

jetswin · 12-01-2011, 10:40 AM

"I'm going to need another term to finish the job..."

bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

cr726 · 12-01-2011, 11:10 AM

[QUOTE=jetswin;4258970]"I'm going to need another term to finish the job..."

bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha[/QUOTE]

Man that sucks he lost your vote. :D

jetswin · 12-01-2011, 11:15 AM

[QUOTE=cr726;4259013]Man that sucks he lost your vote. :D[/QUOTE]
lol, excellent!

Winstonbiggs · 12-01-2011, 11:34 AM

Nothing wrong with the US government investing in new technology if it's going to benifit US taxpayers through US jobs that will end up creating income that will be taxed to pay it back.

The problem with the GM bailout is US taxpayers have invested in this technology which GM is going to transfer to China.

MnJetFan · 12-01-2011, 12:13 PM

The volt is a piece of garbage, they catch fire, they use electricity and they must use electricity to recharge. So want are the saving? Think before answering!

bitonti · 12-01-2011, 12:38 PM

[QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4259041] The problem with the GM bailout is US taxpayers have invested in this technology which GM is going to transfer to China.[/QUOTE]

the Volt is being built in Detroit.

AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite · 12-01-2011, 01:04 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti;4259121]the Volt is being [B]built [/B]in Detroit.[/QUOTE]

Assembled...

The parts come from other countries... Like the battery cell, electric motor, gas engine, etc...

Winstonbiggs · 12-01-2011, 01:05 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti;4259121]the Volt is being built in Detroit.[/QUOTE]

In two years they will be building it in China, 2 years later they will be exporting them here.

For right now a limited number will be exported. The technology will be transfered over seas that's GM's plan.

bitonti · 12-01-2011, 02:24 PM

[QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4259146]In two years they will be building it in China, 2 years later they will be exporting them here.
[/QUOTE]

are you predicting this or do you know it to be a fact?

either way it's a car that should have been developed years ago.

bitonti · 12-01-2011, 03:45 PM

let me also add the volt is in it's first generation and that's not necessarily a product everyone will buy. early adopters pay extra and get less. What it is now is very different than what it will be. Cell Phones used to be like bricks. Now they are tiny. Gotta work through the generations to get to efficiency.

Winstonbiggs · 12-01-2011, 03:50 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti;4259252]are you predicting this or do you know it to be a fact?

either way it's a car that should have been developed years ago.[/QUOTE]

GM made the annoucement at the end of September.

[url]http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/09/gm-cuts-china-electric-car-deal----a-china-shakedown/1[/url]

GM's profit comes from sales of cars made in Asia sold in Asia. The development of this technology has more to do with sales in Asia than in the US which is a cheap testing ground for them. The Chinese will be building them in China in a few years and that's were GM's future is.

11-30-2011, 01:31 PM	#1
jetstream23 recovering from turf toe Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Phoenix, AZ (New Jets Stadium Section 246) Posts: 31,604	The Chevy Volt - You're paying to build it...and to investigate it So taxpayers are subsidizing the Chevy Volt to the tune of $7,000 per car so that people can use batteries instead of gasoline, all this from a nation currently in massive debt. Now that the batteries are beginning to explode, the Federal government's NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) is opening an investigation that will surely cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. Why subsidize this car at all? There are now several new subcompact cars with internal combustion engines that get over 40 mpg. The technology is better and gas engines are much more efficient than a decade ago. If you get 40mpg on the highway with an internal combustion engine vehicle and spend 2/3 the price of an electric car, why not do it, as the analyst says in the video below. And, you don't have the refueling risk (i.e. where can I plug in to recharge on my trip into the suburbs?) [url]http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000059507[/url]

11-30-2011, 03:27 PM	#2
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=jetstream23;4258231] Why subsidize this car at all? [/QUOTE] because we don't have to rely on Middle Easterners, Venezuelans or Nigerians to fuel it. it's as much an investment in national security as it is in energy.

11-30-2011, 03:58 PM	#3
AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite is all out of fuCks to give... All Pro Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 7,452	[QUOTE=bitonti;4258378]because we don't have to rely on Middle Easterners, Venezuelans or Nigerians to fuel it. it's as much an investment in national security as it is in energy.[/QUOTE] We don't have to rely on them now... We have almost 140 billion barrels of oil (recoverable) that we have or can obtain access to... Just so we're clear, that's two decades without a single dime spent on importation of foreign oil...

11-30-2011, 08:43 PM	#4
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4258418]We don't have to rely on them now... We have almost 140 billion barrels of oil (recoverable) that we have or can obtain access to... Just so we're clear, that's two decades without a single dime spent on importation of foreign oil...[/QUOTE] ok... and what happens after 2 decades are over. we will need that for air fuel, plastics, military, trucking, etc. we also will need solar.

11-30-2011, 10:33 PM	#5
majormajor42 Practice Squad Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Rockland County Posts: 399	Our trade deficit due to Oil is about a billion dollars a day. There are also numerous subsidies for oil that add up to the billions. The typical response to this is "Let's end all subsidies! for the oil and the green stuff." I can't argue with that but I have no idea what happens to oil prices when the subsidies are ended. the $7000 (isn't it $7500?) subsidy is on the first 200,000 so that totals $1.5B for each manufacturer. So GM will get this but Toyota and Nissan will get it too I think. So that's the bad news. Sending money to Japan is not a great thing but it beats some of the alternatives. GM is also going to sell PHEVs in Europe (and they mention China in the video, cool, didn't know that - hope they don't reverse engineer the thing) so that's trade surplus although I doubt it will balance things out. Will costs come down enough so that by the time these companies have sold 200,000 cars, and the subsidy expires, they will still be affordable? Good question. So far these companies have only sold a few thousand PEVs and PHEVs so that point in time may be way off. It also comes down to oil prices. Once you take the subsidy out of the equation, does the savings in gas equal the extra price of the car over, let's say, a five year period? Right now, even tough we are still close to a recession, oil is still near $100. Where do we see that number going? If they open up more oil fields -especially domestically/Canada? If the recession clearly ends and oil consumption goes way up again? I was saying in another thread (about solar panels) that I don't own my own home. I live in a Condo so don't have a place to plug in. But if and when I do, and can have a garage or spot with a charger, I'm all in. With my 35 mile commute, I will be able to drive weeks without gassing up. Oh, the thing about the battery problem. I think it is only well after the crash, like three weeks later it may catch fire. How big of a crash? the guy in the video say "extreme crash" so that sounds pretty bad. Now that they know this, you get in a crash, you check the battery as well as everything else just like you would in any other car after a crash. For anyone complaining about the costs of the investigation, I heard no such nonsense during the Firestone Tire issue on the Explorers. People just wanted answers about the problem. Anyone that really wants to know more about the VOLT go to [URL="http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?7466-Poll-Volt-buyer-political-leanings"]their forum[/URL]. Plenty discuss things about the car that they aren't happy about but it is mostly positive. This whole electric car thing is just getting started :alien:

11-30-2011, 10:57 PM	#6
cr726 Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 13,319	[QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4258418]We don't have to rely on them now... We have almost 140 billion barrels of oil (recoverable) that we have or can obtain access to... Just so we're clear, that's two decades without a single dime spent on importation of foreign oil...[/QUOTE] 20 whole years! Wow that's a relief.

11-30-2011, 11:40 PM	#7
AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite is all out of fuCks to give... All Pro Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 7,452	[QUOTE=cr726;4258746]20 whole years! Wow that's a relief.[/QUOTE] 99% of countries with high usage of crude couldnt make it 20 years.

11-30-2011, 11:47 PM	#8
cr726 Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 13,319	[QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4258750]99% of countries with high usage of crude couldnt make it 20 years.[/QUOTE] Even Saudi Arabia is preparing for running out of oil.

12-01-2011, 10:27 AM	#9
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=majormajor42;4258736] It also comes down to oil prices. [/QUOTE] +1 even with 140 billion barrells locally, it's a global market. getting the oil out of shale sands in America or in the desert in Saudi it's the same price when it hits the market. If gasoline keeps going up in value (which it most likely will) then a solution like the volt makes sense. what doesn't make sense is the status quo. We shouldn't risk recession because there's a war in some unstable oil producing country.

12-01-2011, 10:40 AM	#10
jetswin stumblin mumblin butt fumblin Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP JetsInsider.com Legend Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Westchester Co. Posts: 35,465	"I'm going to need another term to finish the job..." bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

12-01-2011, 11:10 AM	#11
cr726 Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 13,319	[QUOTE=jetswin;4258970]"I'm going to need another term to finish the job..." bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha[/QUOTE] Man that sucks he lost your vote. :D

12-01-2011, 11:15 AM	#12
jetswin stumblin mumblin butt fumblin Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP JetsInsider.com Legend Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Westchester Co. Posts: 35,465	[QUOTE=cr726;4259013]Man that sucks he lost your vote. :D[/QUOTE] lol, excellent!

12-01-2011, 11:34 AM	#13
Winstonbiggs Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 12,937	Nothing wrong with the US government investing in new technology if it's going to benifit US taxpayers through US jobs that will end up creating income that will be taxed to pay it back. The problem with the GM bailout is US taxpayers have invested in this technology which GM is going to transfer to China.

12-01-2011, 12:13 PM	#14
MnJetFan All League Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,302	The volt is a piece of garbage, they catch fire, they use electricity and they must use electricity to recharge. So want are the saving? Think before answering!

12-01-2011, 12:38 PM	#15
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4259041] The problem with the GM bailout is US taxpayers have invested in this technology which GM is going to transfer to China.[/QUOTE] the Volt is being built in Detroit.

12-01-2011, 01:04 PM	#16
AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite is all out of fuCks to give... All Pro Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 7,452	[QUOTE=bitonti;4259121]the Volt is being [B]built [/B]in Detroit.[/QUOTE] Assembled... The parts come from other countries... Like the battery cell, electric motor, gas engine, etc...

12-01-2011, 01:05 PM	#17
Winstonbiggs Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 12,937	[QUOTE=bitonti;4259121]the Volt is being built in Detroit.[/QUOTE] In two years they will be building it in China, 2 years later they will be exporting them here. For right now a limited number will be exported. The technology will be transfered over seas that's GM's plan.

12-01-2011, 02:24 PM	#18
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4259146]In two years they will be building it in China, 2 years later they will be exporting them here. [/QUOTE] are you predicting this or do you know it to be a fact? either way it's a car that should have been developed years ago.

12-01-2011, 03:45 PM	#19
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	let me also add the volt is in it's first generation and that's not necessarily a product everyone will buy. early adopters pay extra and get less. What it is now is very different than what it will be. Cell Phones used to be like bricks. Now they are tiny. Gotta work through the generations to get to efficiency.

12-01-2011, 03:50 PM	#20
Winstonbiggs Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 12,937	[QUOTE=bitonti;4259252]are you predicting this or do you know it to be a fact? either way it's a car that should have been developed years ago.[/QUOTE] GM made the annoucement at the end of September. [url]http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/09/gm-cuts-china-electric-car-deal----a-china-shakedown/1[/url] GM's profit comes from sales of cars made in Asia sold in Asia. The development of this technology has more to do with sales in Asia than in the US which is a cheap testing ground for them. The Chinese will be building them in China in a few years and that's were GM's future is.