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Winstonbiggs · 01-02-2007, 05:40 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish]A few questions then: Did GW Bush create the reconstruction plan personally? Or did the Millitary/Govt. Beurocrats in a numbe rof Defense Related Departments come up with the strategy?

As for more Boots, who made that call? Did Generals ask for X number of soldiers, and Bush said no? Who created the plan for security of the occupation? Did Bush do it personally too, or was it again a creation of the Millitary minds in change? Did Bush put all of them in change, or where some, all or noen of them in change when he took office?

Bush gets alot of blame. He's a politician. I want to know who really planned the War, the Occupation and the Security for it. I want to know who gave bad intel, or if you think Bush just lied consciouely (as Renniseance seems to think).[/QUOTE]

Are you trying to say that Bush isn't responsible? It's his administration. I get your point but to me results matter and he's the boss.

Warfish · 01-02-2007, 05:50 PM

[QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]Are you trying to say that Bush isn't responsible? It's his administration. I get your point but to me results matter and he's the boss.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't asking you what MY view is. I already know. :D

I want to know your answers to the questions I asked. We all understand the top-man gets the blame. But we have many a poster here who personally blames Bush, for all of the failures in Iraq and anywhere else.

Hence my questions to you.

Warfish · 01-02-2007, 05:54 PM

[QUOTE=Renaissance10]Saddam was a threat to Isreal, or so Perle Wolfowitz thought,, plus sources say they had financial reasons behind it

Anyway they and the Neo-cons led us to war,, the fact is they were wrong, they were wrong about the WMDs and this war has been a disaster,, why arent they being held accountable? How about sending a message to the international world(who was against going into Iraq) and putting our guys on trial for war crimes,, because they are American they get a pass? If you are American you are allowed to lead a war effort and hold no accountability?[/QUOTE]

I'm a bit confused by your answers, help me if you please......

If Iraq had no WMD's, how could they or were they a threat Israel?

What sources are you referencing regarding war profiteering by Bush's string pullers, as you call them.

Which War Crimes (specificly) should American Troops be tried for (please cite reference)?? And should the trial be held in an international Court?

Renaissance10 · 01-02-2007, 06:02 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish]I'm a bit confused by your answers, help me if you please......

If Iraq had no WMD's, how could they or were they a threat Israel?

What sources are you referencing regarding war profiteering by Bush's string pullers, as you call them.

Which War Crimes (specificly) should American Troops be tried for (please cite reference)?? And should the trial be held in an international Court?[/QUOTE]

maybe they thought they had WMDs, Scott Ritter the head Weapons Inspector at the time said Iraq had no WMDs and the US was wrong for going into war, yet the powers that be led the War charge anyway.

Maybe they were paranoid, they thought Saddam was a threat regardless, or it was pure financial reasons for going into war,,, the fact is they led us to a war based on wrong assumptions and someone needs to be held accountable

Warfish · 01-02-2007, 06:07 PM

[QUOTE=Renaissance10]maybe they thought they had WMDs, Scott Ritter the head Weapons Inspector at the time said Iraq had no WMDs and the US was wrong for going into war, yet the powers that be led the War charge anyway.

Maybe they were paranoid, they thought Saddam was a threat regardless, or it was pure financial reasons for going into war,,, the fact is they led us to a war based on wrong assumptions and someone needs to be held accountable[/QUOTE]

So.....the brilliant minds that got an ignorant puppet dope elected President......twice.......and controlled his strings with only a select few brave Liberal minds figuring it out.......were stupid, ignorant and/or paranoid enough to go to war even knowing there was no threat to Israel, which you say was the reason they went to War? Seems a wee bit of a contradiction to me. How do you explain that?

And I'll ask again, can you answer the other questions posed please:

[QUOTE]What sources are you referencing regarding war profiteering by Bush's string pullers, as you call them.

Which War Crimes (specificly) should American Troops be tried for (please cite reference)?? And should the trial be held in an international Court?[/QUOTE]

Renaissance10 · 01-02-2007, 06:10 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish]So.....the brilliant minds that got an ignorant puppet dope elected President......twice.......and controlled his strings with only a select few brave Liberal minds figuring it out.......were stupid, ignorant and/or paranoid enough to go to war even knowing there was no threat to Israel, which you say was the reason they went to War? Seems a wee bit of a contradiction to me. How do you explain that?

And I'll ask again, can you answer the other questions posed please:[/QUOTE]

you are a jack a$$ I did not say put the American troops on trial, stop putting words in my mouth,, I said the American leaders who led the war charge should be held accountable,, the troops are just doing there job and unless they do something wrong, like rape and kill a women they shouldnt be charged for anything

Warfish · 01-02-2007, 06:25 PM

[QUOTE=Renaissance10]you are a jack a$$[/quote]

For misunderstanding, I am a jackass? WHat are you, a five year old? There is no need for such a reaction. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Renaissance10]I did not say put the American troops on trial, stop putting words in my mouth,, I said the American leaders who led the war charge should be held accountable,[/QUOTE]

Actually, what you said was:

[QUOTE=Renaissance10]How about sending a message to the international world(who was against going into Iraq) and putting [U][B]our guys[/B][/U] on trial for war crimes,, because they are American they get a pass?[/QUOTE]

"Our Guys" does not specificly identify whom you intended. Although I can see in the next line where you could have meant the leadership, so I stand corrected. No harm, no foul, and certainly no need for immaturity I would assume.

So now that you have clarified, which I appreciate, can you lay out the case for War Crimes chargres against American leaders. Specificly, what actions/crimes, by which specific leaders, are elligible for a War Crimes Trail in your mind?

And again......do you wish to have the trials in an international court? What would you suggest the possible penalties be?

Renaissance10 · 01-02-2007, 06:32 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish]For misunderstanding, I am a jackass? WHat are you, a five year old? There is no need for such a reaction. :rolleyes:

Actually, what you said was:

"Our Guys" does not specificly identify whom you intended. Although I can see in the next line where you could have meant the leadership, so I stand corrected. No harm, no foul, and certainly no need for immaturity I would assume.

So now that you have clarified, which I appreciate, can you lay out the case for War Crimes chargres against American leaders. Specificly, what actions/crimes, by which specific leaders, are elligible for a War Crimes Trail in your mind?

And again......do you wish to have the trials in an international court? What would you suggest the possible penalties be?[/QUOTE]

Sure let it be a international court,, put Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumsfled, Bush whoever could be accused of anything,, I dont know the whole details but I have ideas,,, why should they be allowed to lead a war charge that has murdered thousands of people cost billions of dollars and made the world a worse place,, this isnt a video game,, so they f---d up and they are allowed to go home and either justify or deny their involvment?

They f----d up and they should be held accountable,, the world is a worse place because of them,, make them pay

Warfish · 01-02-2007, 06:37 PM

[QUOTE=Renaissance10]whoever could be accused of anything,, I dont know the whole details but I have ideas...

...the world is a worse place because of them,, make them pay[/QUOTE]

So tell us your ideas then. A War Crimes Trial is a serious thing, especially if you're going to try the leader of the only Super Power on Earth, and many of his staff. So what are the specific charges, at the very least, based on these ideas you have.

And I ask again, what would you think would be an appropriate punishment for these men? What penalty would best "make them pay" for the crimes you're going to list as requested above?

Winstonbiggs · 01-02-2007, 07:57 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish]I wasn't asking you what MY view is. I already know. :D

I want to know your answers to the questions I asked. We all understand the top-man gets the blame. But we have many a poster here who personally blames Bush, for all of the failures in Iraq and anywhere else.

Hence my questions to you.[/QUOTE]

As the elected leader of this adminstration he is responsible. On the war crimes issue, if I'm not mistaken wasn't the former President of Chile, Pinochet, picked up in London on a bench warrant issued by a Spainish Judge? While highly unlikely that any one in the administration would be tried, the possability exists for members of Bush's staff having warrants issued for the both Gitmo and Abu Ghraib by a European democratic nation.

Warfish · 01-02-2007, 08:31 PM

[QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]While highly unlikely that any one in the administration would be tried, the possability exists for members of Bush's staff having warrants issued for the both Gitmo and Abu Ghraib by a European democratic nation.[/QUOTE]

Possabillity exists, eh?

What would you put the odds on that happening? And which Nation would you think most likely to dare such an action? And do you think the US would sit idly by while say, Former Vice President Cheney, goes on trial in Luxembourg after being "served" on some diplomatic mission in Europe?

And a better question......would a Demoicratic President do anything to defend him?

And again, what are the specific Charges? Saying "Gitmo and Abu Ghraib" doesn't mean anything. Trails have detailed and very specific charges. What charges are you then levying Winston?

Winstonbiggs · 01-02-2007, 09:09 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish]Possabillity exists, eh?

What would you put the odds on that happening? And which Nation would you think most likely to dare such an action? And do you think the US would sit idly by while say, Former Vice President Cheney, goes on trial in Luxembourg after being "served" on some diplomatic mission in Europe?

And a better question......would a Demoicratic President do anything to defend him?

And again, what are the specific Charges? Saying "Gitmo and Abu Ghraib" doesn't mean anything. Trails have detailed and very specific charges. What charges are you then levying Winston?[/QUOTE]

As I said highly unlikely but torture is an crime against Humanity. Pinochet is a precedent for other countries not only issueing warrants but those warrants being the rational of third party extradiction.

[url]http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9812/10/pinochet.01/index.html?eref=sitesearch[/url]

bman · 01-03-2007, 03:42 PM

3000 people died so Bush could get his Daddys nemesis..
Meanwhile, the real threat to America, and the person who murdered 3000 Americans on 9-11 is sitting pretty in a cave..

Nice Job Little Bush..You will be remembered as the worst president in US history.

01-03-2007, 07:57 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish]Possabillity exists, eh?

What would you put the odds on that happening? And which Nation would you think most likely to dare such an action? And do you think the US would sit idly by while say, Former Vice President Cheney, goes on trial in Luxembourg after being "served" on some diplomatic mission in Europe?

And a better question......would a Demoicratic President do anything to defend him?

And again, what are the specific Charges? Saying "Gitmo and Abu Ghraib" doesn't mean anything. Trails have detailed and very specific charges. What charges are you then levying Winston?[/QUOTE]

For the heinous crime of putting Y-Fronts on a terrorist's head
the wrong (i. e. non-Islamic) way....GUILTY

01-02-2007, 05:40 PM	#21
Winstonbiggs Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 12,908	[QUOTE=Warfish]A few questions then: Did GW Bush create the reconstruction plan personally? Or did the Millitary/Govt. Beurocrats in a numbe rof Defense Related Departments come up with the strategy? As for more Boots, who made that call? Did Generals ask for X number of soldiers, and Bush said no? Who created the plan for security of the occupation? Did Bush do it personally too, or was it again a creation of the Millitary minds in change? Did Bush put all of them in change, or where some, all or noen of them in change when he took office? Bush gets alot of blame. He's a politician. I want to know who really planned the War, the Occupation and the Security for it. I want to know who gave bad intel, or if you think Bush just lied consciouely (as Renniseance seems to think).[/QUOTE] Are you trying to say that Bush isn't responsible? It's his administration. I get your point but to me results matter and he's the boss.

01-02-2007, 05:50 PM	#22
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]Are you trying to say that Bush isn't responsible? It's his administration. I get your point but to me results matter and he's the boss.[/QUOTE] I wasn't asking you what MY view is. I already know. :D I want to know your answers to the questions I asked. We all understand the top-man gets the blame. But we have many a poster here who personally blames Bush, for all of the failures in Iraq and anywhere else. Hence my questions to you.

01-02-2007, 05:54 PM	#23
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=Renaissance10]Saddam was a threat to Isreal, or so Perle Wolfowitz thought,, plus sources say they had financial reasons behind it Anyway they and the Neo-cons led us to war,, the fact is they were wrong, they were wrong about the WMDs and this war has been a disaster,, why arent they being held accountable? How about sending a message to the international world(who was against going into Iraq) and putting our guys on trial for war crimes,, because they are American they get a pass? If you are American you are allowed to lead a war effort and hold no accountability?[/QUOTE] I'm a bit confused by your answers, help me if you please...... If Iraq had no WMD's, how could they or were they a threat Israel? What sources are you referencing regarding war profiteering by Bush's string pullers, as you call them. Which War Crimes (specificly) should American Troops be tried for (please cite reference)?? And should the trial be held in an international Court?

01-02-2007, 06:02 PM	#24
Renaissance10 Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: US Posts: 244	[QUOTE=Warfish]I'm a bit confused by your answers, help me if you please...... If Iraq had no WMD's, how could they or were they a threat Israel? What sources are you referencing regarding war profiteering by Bush's string pullers, as you call them. Which War Crimes (specificly) should American Troops be tried for (please cite reference)?? And should the trial be held in an international Court?[/QUOTE] maybe they thought they had WMDs, Scott Ritter the head Weapons Inspector at the time said Iraq had no WMDs and the US was wrong for going into war, yet the powers that be led the War charge anyway. Maybe they were paranoid, they thought Saddam was a threat regardless, or it was pure financial reasons for going into war,,, the fact is they led us to a war based on wrong assumptions and someone needs to be held accountable

01-02-2007, 06:07 PM	#25
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=Renaissance10]maybe they thought they had WMDs, Scott Ritter the head Weapons Inspector at the time said Iraq had no WMDs and the US was wrong for going into war, yet the powers that be led the War charge anyway. Maybe they were paranoid, they thought Saddam was a threat regardless, or it was pure financial reasons for going into war,,, the fact is they led us to a war based on wrong assumptions and someone needs to be held accountable[/QUOTE] So.....the brilliant minds that got an ignorant puppet dope elected President......twice.......and controlled his strings with only a select few brave Liberal minds figuring it out.......were stupid, ignorant and/or paranoid enough to go to war even knowing there was no threat to Israel, which you say was the reason they went to War? Seems a wee bit of a contradiction to me. How do you explain that? And I'll ask again, can you answer the other questions posed please: [QUOTE]What sources are you referencing regarding war profiteering by Bush's string pullers, as you call them. Which War Crimes (specificly) should American Troops be tried for (please cite reference)?? And should the trial be held in an international Court?[/QUOTE]

01-02-2007, 06:10 PM	#26
Renaissance10 Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: US Posts: 244	[QUOTE=Warfish]So.....the brilliant minds that got an ignorant puppet dope elected President......twice.......and controlled his strings with only a select few brave Liberal minds figuring it out.......were stupid, ignorant and/or paranoid enough to go to war even knowing there was no threat to Israel, which you say was the reason they went to War? Seems a wee bit of a contradiction to me. How do you explain that? And I'll ask again, can you answer the other questions posed please:[/QUOTE] you are a jack a$$ I did not say put the American troops on trial, stop putting words in my mouth,, I said the American leaders who led the war charge should be held accountable,, the troops are just doing there job and unless they do something wrong, like rape and kill a women they shouldnt be charged for anything

01-02-2007, 06:25 PM	#27
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=Renaissance10]you are a jack a$$[/quote] For misunderstanding, I am a jackass? WHat are you, a five year old? There is no need for such a reaction. :rolleyes: [QUOTE=Renaissance10]I did not say put the American troops on trial, stop putting words in my mouth,, I said the American leaders who led the war charge should be held accountable,[/QUOTE] Actually, what you said was: [QUOTE=Renaissance10]How about sending a message to the international world(who was against going into Iraq) and putting [U][B]our guys[/B][/U] on trial for war crimes,, because they are American they get a pass?[/QUOTE] "Our Guys" does not specificly identify whom you intended. Although I can see in the next line where you could have meant the leadership, so I stand corrected. No harm, no foul, and certainly no need for immaturity I would assume. So now that you have clarified, which I appreciate, can you lay out the case for War Crimes chargres against American leaders. Specificly, what actions/crimes, by which specific leaders, are elligible for a War Crimes Trail in your mind? And again......do you wish to have the trials in an international court? What would you suggest the possible penalties be?

01-02-2007, 06:32 PM	#28
Renaissance10 Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: US Posts: 244	[QUOTE=Warfish]For misunderstanding, I am a jackass? WHat are you, a five year old? There is no need for such a reaction. :rolleyes: Actually, what you said was: "Our Guys" does not specificly identify whom you intended. Although I can see in the next line where you could have meant the leadership, so I stand corrected. No harm, no foul, and certainly no need for immaturity I would assume. So now that you have clarified, which I appreciate, can you lay out the case for War Crimes chargres against American leaders. Specificly, what actions/crimes, by which specific leaders, are elligible for a War Crimes Trail in your mind? And again......do you wish to have the trials in an international court? What would you suggest the possible penalties be?[/QUOTE] Sure let it be a international court,, put Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumsfled, Bush whoever could be accused of anything,, I dont know the whole details but I have ideas,,, why should they be allowed to lead a war charge that has murdered thousands of people cost billions of dollars and made the world a worse place,, this isnt a video game,, so they f---d up and they are allowed to go home and either justify or deny their involvment? They f----d up and they should be held accountable,, the world is a worse place because of them,, make them pay

01-02-2007, 06:37 PM	#29
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=Renaissance10]whoever could be accused of anything,, I dont know the whole details but I have ideas... ...the world is a worse place because of them,, make them pay[/QUOTE] So tell us your ideas then. A War Crimes Trial is a serious thing, especially if you're going to try the leader of the only Super Power on Earth, and many of his staff. So what are the specific charges, at the very least, based on these ideas you have. And I ask again, what would you think would be an appropriate punishment for these men? What penalty would best "make them pay" for the crimes you're going to list as requested above?

01-02-2007, 07:57 PM	#30
Winstonbiggs Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 12,908	[QUOTE=Warfish]I wasn't asking you what MY view is. I already know. :D I want to know your answers to the questions I asked. We all understand the top-man gets the blame. But we have many a poster here who personally blames Bush, for all of the failures in Iraq and anywhere else. Hence my questions to you.[/QUOTE] As the elected leader of this adminstration he is responsible. On the war crimes issue, if I'm not mistaken wasn't the former President of Chile, Pinochet, picked up in London on a bench warrant issued by a Spainish Judge? While highly unlikely that any one in the administration would be tried, the possability exists for members of Bush's staff having warrants issued for the both Gitmo and Abu Ghraib by a European democratic nation.

01-02-2007, 08:31 PM	#31
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]While highly unlikely that any one in the administration would be tried, the possability exists for members of Bush's staff having warrants issued for the both Gitmo and Abu Ghraib by a European democratic nation.[/QUOTE] Possabillity exists, eh? What would you put the odds on that happening? And which Nation would you think most likely to dare such an action? And do you think the US would sit idly by while say, Former Vice President Cheney, goes on trial in Luxembourg after being "served" on some diplomatic mission in Europe? And a better question......would a Demoicratic President do anything to defend him? And again, what are the specific Charges? Saying "Gitmo and Abu Ghraib" doesn't mean anything. Trails have detailed and very specific charges. What charges are you then levying Winston?

01-02-2007, 09:09 PM	#32
Winstonbiggs Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 12,908	[QUOTE=Warfish]Possabillity exists, eh? What would you put the odds on that happening? And which Nation would you think most likely to dare such an action? And do you think the US would sit idly by while say, Former Vice President Cheney, goes on trial in Luxembourg after being "served" on some diplomatic mission in Europe? And a better question......would a Demoicratic President do anything to defend him? And again, what are the specific Charges? Saying "Gitmo and Abu Ghraib" doesn't mean anything. Trails have detailed and very specific charges. What charges are you then levying Winston?[/QUOTE] As I said highly unlikely but torture is an crime against Humanity. Pinochet is a precedent for other countries not only issueing warrants but those warrants being the rational of third party extradiction. [url]http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9812/10/pinochet.01/index.html?eref=sitesearch[/url]

01-03-2007, 03:42 PM	#33
bman All League Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4,935	3000 people died so Bush could get his Daddys nemesis.. Meanwhile, the real threat to America, and the person who murdered 3000 Americans on 9-11 is sitting pretty in a cave.. Nice Job Little Bush..You will be remembered as the worst president in US history.

01-03-2007, 07:57 PM	#34
flushingjet Edit Status Guest Posts: n/a	[QUOTE=Warfish]Possabillity exists, eh? What would you put the odds on that happening? And which Nation would you think most likely to dare such an action? And do you think the US would sit idly by while say, Former Vice President Cheney, goes on trial in Luxembourg after being "served" on some diplomatic mission in Europe? And a better question......would a Demoicratic President do anything to defend him? And again, what are the specific Charges? Saying "Gitmo and Abu Ghraib" doesn't mean anything. Trails have detailed and very specific charges. What charges are you then levying Winston?[/QUOTE] For the heinous crime of putting Y-Fronts on a terrorist's head the wrong (i. e. non-Islamic) way....GUILTY