OT Pistons/Cavs Game 6

[SMC]

Originally Posted by RutgersJetFan

Hoopshype is the be all, end all for salary info. Bookmark that site, it's fantastic, especially for individual player history as well. Great site and I'd recomend it to anyone.

You're absolutely right though in the 2nd paragraph and perhaps I misspoke. I was speaking more in terms of the MLE type guys (James, Jeffries).

However they're not too far from being in the position to sign whomever they want. I've been saying for 2 years now that the 09/10 season is where it's at for us, being that we'll have 2 expiring contracts that will be like a goldmine for a few teams.

Regardless, with the cap going up yearly and the Knicks coming out of contract hell, there's certainly life at the end of the tunnel, and it's there sooner than later. People can point and laugh at Zeke all they want, but the fact is he seemed to have learned his lesson in terms of spending and there aren't too many out there who can draft better. There's a solid core to build around and financially they're almost in the clear, and as long as they don't do anything stupid, they should be by the time Lebron's a FA.

I just hope Isiah and Dolan don't screw it up. Being under the salary cap in 2010 and on is imperative for the Knicks to have a better next 10 years than the last 10 since Ewing left (the trade of Ewing set the team spiralling into cap hell).

In the mean time, the Knicks should let these contracts expire unless they can get an elite player like Kobe or Garnett in return, IMO.

[RutgersJetFan]

Originally Posted by SMC

I just hope Isiah and Dolan don't screw it up. Being under the salary cap in 2010 and on is imperative for the Knicks to have a better next 10 years than the last 10 since Ewing left (the trade of Ewing set the team spiralling into cap hell).

In the mean time, the Knicks should let these contracts expire unless they can get an elite player like Kobe or Garnett in return, IMO.

Oh I agree, and I never thought I'd say this, but it's actually worked out for the best that Isiah took over the team. He knows its needs now and also knows the team he wants to build. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but I really believe in my heart that things are getting better after this year, it's so obvious the core of young talent that exists on the roster that I refuse to believe Isiah doesn't see this (and not screw it up).

Hopefully he can land Lewis but I don't think you're going to see too many huge moves from Isiah this offseason (unless it's a trade for a young guard), and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how he handles the draft this year. I do wish that we had that 9th pick, but I'm also satisfied with Curry and Balkman for the time being and am confident that Isiah will certainly do well with the 23rd.

Also, the Ewing trade was a start, but it was the Houston and Anderson signings that really sent the team down the sh-tter.

[Jason423]

Originally Posted by RutgersJetFan

Well considering that you just admitted that Lee and Balkman were both good selections, you have to take into account exactly how they were attained, which is through trades initiated by Isiah. Lee was aquired through the Nazr Mohammad trade in which they got Phoenix' pick from San Antonio, and Balkman was aquired through the Anthony Davis trade for Rose, which was also a byproduct of the Curry trade.

I don't understand how you can say Eddy Curry is nothing, that's a completely unfair statement. Outside of Dwight Howard, there wasn't a better offensive center in the East this year and he also might have been the biggest All Star snub this past season. As of right now, the results have that trade have turned into Michael Sweetney, Tyrus Thomas, and the 9th overall this year for Balkman and Curry. I'm perfectly satisfied with that for the time being. There's no doubt in anyone's mind right now that Curry's a future All Star.

The two biggest salary cap burdens under Thomas' watch have been Francis and Rose, neither of which were Isiah's doing. That was all Larry Brown, and noone's ever faulted Isiah for those two contracts.

The other money coming off the books this year, which is Anderson and Houston, were here before Isiah even got here. Those were the doings of Layden, not Zeke.

You can't fault him for the coaching changes either. He did exactly what New Yorkers wanted in getting Larry Brown to the Garden and it f'd them. You're really underestimating exactly how much Brown's season (which is hands down the most classless thing I've ever seen a coach do), set the franchise back. He hindered the development of practically the whole roster, mailed the season in, and then took the money and ran.

So what did Isiah do? He took over, and barring the countless injuries to key players (which they were absolutely plagued with towards the end of the year), it's very likely the Knicks would have gotten the 7th or 8th seed in the East.

Calling Crawford a bad decision is a complete joke. Did you see how much the team struggled as soon as he got hurt? He's their best perimeter shooter and also their most clutch player. About 10 games before his injury he was heating up like he never had before along with Curry and the team playing some of its best ball. You're completely ignoring the fact that when completely healthy the team was one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the league and also was competitive almost every single night. Ask any Knick fan who saw this entire season, up until the injury bug this team hung in there every single night and never gave up against older and more experienced competition.

The bottom line is you're ignoring the youth of the team and also how much Brown set them back. There's aren't too many Knick fans out there who aren't excited about the nucleus of Curry and Lee and also there's not too many out there who would agree with you calling Crawford a "terrible decision." How can you say that? He's their go-to guy in crunch time every time and very rarely does he not come through when it matters.

On top of everything, Marbury remains a fan favorite and also singlehandidly carried the team through its worst spots this year. The guy played the best ball of his career this season and gained a ton of respect from fans who once doubted him, including myself.

You're also ignoring the Randolph Morris signing of this past March, which really flew under the radar and is going to wind up being a huge pickup for the team.

I have no problem with criticism of the team, but that's a completely unfair and also unrealistic assessment. I like you Jason, but that entire post is so far off it's not even funny. If you want to nitpick at guys like Jeffries and James, then by all means, go ahead. But you're forgetting that everyone and their mother praised the Jeffries signing at the time, and also every GM makes a bad move here and there along the line. Between Curry, Lee, and Balkman there's a good nuclues to build around and on top of that they're extremely young. Practically every NBA analyst would agree with that statement (as they've even said it themselves), and I don't understand how on earth you could be so shortsighted in your evaluation of them if you've seen them play.

I dont understand the praise for Eddy Curry. Curry is a decent offensive player. Hes not a great offensive player. Hes a good offensive rebounder. Hes a terrible defender. Hes a terrible defensive rebounder. He doesnt block or alter any shots. To give up the picks they did for him and not lottery protect them in some way was ridiculous. Curry is what he is. You want to point to the age and say hes going to be an all star. Maybe it happens, but thats a byproduct of the East moreso than anything else.

How was Crawford a good decision? They gave him a contract that runs forever and he is probably close to the worst % shooting guard at both 2s and 3s in the NBA. Was he the best guard on the Knicks? Sure. But thats like saying Jason Collins was the best center on the Nets. And clutch player? Almost every time I watched the Knicks there was Crawford taking that final shot and missing, and missing again, and again. Hes had some big games and has nights where he can go off, but so can so many guys in the NBA if you force them the ball 20 some times per game. The best thing about Crawford is his attitude. Hes the one guy who played hard under Brown and doesnt quit on the floor the way some others do....

I dont know why you dont fault Isiah for all the coaching changes. Don Chaney. Lenny Wilkens. Herb Williams. Larry Brown. Himself. I know the coaches in the NBA dont last long, but this is ridiculous. He should have canned Chaney right from the start. Brown was certainly understandable. It became a bad situation. Id give him a pass on it. The other 3 moves I cant. He should have made himself the coach after Chaney or at least after Wilkens. Its too many changes for these players.

Marbury is garbage. Hes been booed in most of his tenure on the Knicks. I find it hard to believe that Knick fans would be upset if tomorrow Isiah just says "I had enough" and cut him. Who though the Jeffries signing was a good one? Certainly not the Wizards who refused to match the offer or any of the other teams in the NBA that had the same chance to sign him.

Just because a team is young doesnt make it great. Alot of teams are built with a young nucleus. Atlanta. Boston. Chicago. Some good some not so good. I think the rarer cases are the teams like NJ, Miami, and Sacramento who are all about to go through some major pains soon. You have to have stars to win in the NBA. All of the moves Isiah has made have put him in a position to where its going to be extremely hard to get a star player. Curry and Lee arent stars. I dont think they ever will be. Lee is the kind of guy you need to fill out a winning rotation. Curry maybe as well. Thats the nucleus the Knicks have right now- Balkman, Lee, Frye, Curry. Maybe Morris. I just dont see all the excitement over it. If the Knicks still had the 2nd pick and the 9th pick maybe Isiah gets the shot to pick his star. The odds of finding it there are much better than picking in the 20s.

I doubt the Knicks would have made the playoffs this year if Crawford and Lee dont get hurt. The Knicks were playing below what the 8 seed got in at when those guys went down in mid February. Maybe the Knicks keep games close. I actually thought they did a good job the first two months under Brown playing hard and keeping it close as well. Then they quit and he quit. I thought when Isiah got that extension this year the team kind of quit then too, but prior to that they playued some teams pretty close rallying the 4th quarter.

[NYJ Fan18]

Curry got rob being allstar this year. Curry Kills Dwight Howard. Go Check The Stats. Curry has better numbers than Howard when they vs. Howard shouldnt go to the all star this year he does the same dunk . He doesnt have a Jumpshot like Curry. Curry is the Knicks All Star player. If Curry playing bad we have hard time shot the damn ball. We going to get Lewis this Season. So the Knicks could imporve 5-8 wins better. Thats make us a playoff team. We should Trade Fyre and let Morris Start he's tougher than fyre. Or get Big Baby he got a great jump shot.

[RutgersJetFan]

Originally Posted by Jason423

I dont understand the praise for Eddy Curry. Curry is a decent offensive player. Hes not a great offensive player. Hes a good offensive rebounder. Hes a terrible defender. Hes a terrible defensive rebounder. He doesnt block or alter any shots. To give up the picks they did for him and not lottery protect them in some way was ridiculous. Curry is what he is. You want to point to the age and say hes going to be an all star. Maybe it happens, but thats a byproduct of the East moreso than anything else.

And the majority of people would agree with that, his defensive game is totally suspect, but calling him a decent offensive player is just shortsighted. The guy played fantastic at times this year on the offensive side of the ball, and saying that I "want" to point to his age is shortsighted as well. The guy's 24 years old and not acknowledging that he hasn't been coming into his own is simply not true.

Call it a byproduct if you must, but Curry dominated Ben Wallace this past season and also held his own against Shaq and Howard in several matchups. In going against some the best centers in the league Curry played very, very well. That's not a byproduct.

How was Crawford a good decision? They gave him a contract that runs forever and he is probably close to the worst % shooting guard at both 2s and 3s in the NBA. Was he the best guard on the Knicks? Sure. But thats like saying Jason Collins was the best center on the Nets. And clutch player? Almost every time I watched the Knicks there was Crawford taking that final shot and missing, and missing again, and again. Hes had some big games and has nights where he can go off, but so can so many guys in the NBA if you force them the ball 20 some times per game. The best thing about Crawford is his attitude. Hes the one guy who played hard under Brown and doesnt quit on the floor the way some others do....

Why do you point to his contract? It's not like he's ridiculously overpaid.

And what games were you watching where he was missing the final shot again, and again? In the 05/06 season, where the team had 23 wins, Crawford hit game winning shots in 7 of them.

Perhaps you're thinking back to the first few games of the season, where the guard rotation was a mess. Are you forgetting the Denver game? The Miami game? Why are you completely ignoring the fact that he averaged almost 22 points a game in his last 15 starts before the fracture and was playing the best ball of his career? Do you think it's just a coincidence that the team was playing its best ball during that stretch?

Here'a a fact for you though: Over the past 4 seasons, only Kobe Bryant and Vince Carter have attempted more game winning shots than Crawford, and Crawford had a higher FG% than the both of them in that situation. His FG% in game winning situations isn't the highest in the league, but it also gets skewed simply due to the amount of them that he takes.

I dont know why you dont fault Isiah for all the coaching changes. Don Chaney. Lenny Wilkens. Herb Williams. Larry Brown. Himself. I know the coaches in the NBA dont last long, but this is ridiculous. He should have canned Chaney right from the start. Brown was certainly understandable. It became a bad situation. Id give him a pass on it. The other 3 moves I cant. He should have made himself the coach after Chaney or at least after Wilkens. Its too many changes for these players.

I don't fault Isiah for the coaching changes because there was noone else out there during any of those hires. Noone criticized the Wilkins hire when it happened, and the Brown hiring was applauded on all ends. Not every team can just magically "find" a coach right off the bat, it doesn't work like that Jason. Ask Detroit, Indiana, and Cleveland.

Marbury is garbage. Hes been booed in most of his tenure on the Knicks. I find it hard to believe that Knick fans would be upset if tomorrow Isiah just says "I had enough" and cut him. Who though the Jeffries signing was a good one? Certainly not the Wizards who refused to match the offer or any of the other teams in the NBA that had the same chance to sign him.

What Knick games have you been going to? Can't be at the Garden, Marbury still gets the loudest cheers from the home crowd the majority of the time, and that hasn't changed much since he's been here.

You really keep nitpicking at the Jeffries signing. SO WHAT? It was a bad move in retrospect Jason, move on. At the time Jeffries was universally recognized as Washington's best defensive player and the Knicks were in desperate need of some defensive help at the 3.

Just because a team is young doesnt make it great. Alot of teams are built with a young nucleus. Atlanta. Boston. Chicago. Some good some not so good. I think the rarer cases are the teams like NJ, Miami, and Sacramento who are all about to go through some major pains soon. You have to have stars to win in the NBA. All of the moves Isiah has made have put him in a position to where its going to be extremely hard to get a star player. Curry and Lee arent stars. I dont think they ever will be. Lee is the kind of guy you need to fill out a winning rotation. Curry maybe as well. Thats the nucleus the Knicks have right now- Balkman, Lee, Frye, Curry. Maybe Morris. I just dont see all the excitement over it. If the Knicks still had the 2nd pick and the 9th pick maybe Isiah gets the shot to pick his star. The odds of finding it there are much better than picking in the 20s.

Curry and Lee aren't stars, yet. How on earth you could say that they don't have the potential to be is mind boggling. The bottom line is both of these players at their best have shown the potential to be All Stars, the same can not be said of several of the younger players on teams that you just mentioned.

And you're totally wrong in the fact that the Knicks are out of position to get a star player in the future. They have two expiring contracts of monumental proportions the year after this, and the cap dump that's about to take place over the next two years is on track to save the franchise. Have you even seen what the cap situation will be like for the Knicks over the next 2-3 years? If so, I don't understand how you're saying they won't be able to land anyone, that's COMPLETELY false.

I doubt the Knicks would have made the playoffs this year if Crawford and Lee dont get hurt. The Knicks were playing below what the 8 seed got in at when those guys went down in mid February. Maybe the Knicks keep games close. I actually thought they did a good job the first two months under Brown playing hard and keeping it close as well. Then they quit and he quit. I thought when Isiah got that extension this year the team kind of quit then too, but prior to that they playued some teams pretty close rallying the 4th quarter.

Look, it's clear that you loathe Isiah, and that's cool, but stop pulling things out of thin air. Washington collapsed at the end of the year (due to injury as well) and the Knicks lost several games down the stretch that they should have, and would have won had they been healthy. They were also right up with Orlando and Jersey with about 20 games to go.

Things just changed and made it impossible for them down the stretch. You had collapse after collapse due to the lineup Isiah was forced to put on the court. Take the Orlando game for instance:

The Knicks went 23 of 37 from the line that night, however, Balkman, Collins, Robinson, and Frye went 7 of 17 within those numbers. Take that ratio out, and anyone who's on the roster that's got more than 2 years under their belt totaled for 80% from the line, which is pretty good when you're looking at it from a team standpoint.

Now, 3 of those 4 players shouldn't have logged nearly as many minutes as they did last night, especially Nate and Mardy, however Zeke had no choice due to the injury plague that spread through the locker room since the break.

Balkman played what, 25-30 minutes per game? Collins was playing 20-25 per night which he had no buisness doing, and Nate experienced a PT increase like he never experienced before.

It's no coincidence that the boards on offense went down the tubes after Richardson, Crawford, and Lee went out. There were no perimeter shooters and Curry also had no help underneath, thus teams just swarmed Curry and dared the Knicks to beat them from te perimeter. Do you honestly think defenses would have had it that easy if they hadn't of been plagued by injury?

Just stop Jason, enough. You're simply saying things that aren't true. If you want to point to weak spots, point to the fact that they haven't made on effort to get a guard that's not a shoot first player. Point to Isiah's inability to recognize that 3-4 guard rotations don't work when your entire roster is healthy. Criticize the fact that he refuses to accept the concept of Steve Francis sucking. Criticize the fact that Isiah couldn't get them to stop turning the ball over, but enough with the same old BS.

[Jason423]

Perhaps you're thinking back to the first few games of the season, where the guard rotation was a mess. Are you forgetting the Denver game? The Miami game? Why are you completely ignoring the fact that he averaged almost 22 points a game in his last 15 starts before the fracture and was playing the best ball of his career? Do you think it's just a coincidence that the team was playing its best ball during that stretch?

In those last 15 starts the team was 8-7. They lost to the Bucs, Nets, Bobcats and Sixers in that stretch so it wasnt like they were losing to the Suns everynight. If Crawford is the most important cog in the Knicks season he wouldnt have been involved in so many trade rumors over the past 2 years.

You really keep nitpicking at the Jeffries signing. SO WHAT? It was a bad move in retrospect Jason, move on. At the time Jeffries was universally recognized as Washington's best defensive player and the Knicks were in desperate need of some defensive help at the 3.

Im not nitpicking the signing. You said in your previous post "If you want to nitpick at guys like Jeffries and James, then by all means, go ahead. But you're forgetting that everyone and their mother praised the Jeffries signing at the time, and also every GM makes a bad move here and there along the line."...Im just answering your comment. I disagree with it. I dont think many GMs thought it was a great deal. They all would have done the same deal if they thought he was a great move.

Curry and Lee aren't stars, yet. How on earth you could say that they don't have the potential to be is mind boggling. The bottom line is both of these players at their best have shown the potential to be All Stars, the same can not be said of several of the younger players on teams that you just mentioned.

Most of the time you can see right away if someone has star potential in the NBA, with certain exceptions especially atthe guard position. After 6 years of Curry would you say hes ready to make that step to be a 23 and 10 type of player? Thats the star level Im looking for to carry a team. Lee is going to be a great offensive rebounder if he stays healthy. I personally dont see him as making the leap to the superstar level or having even shown a glimpse that he would be there. His offensive game isnt good enough.

And you're totally wrong in the fact that the Knicks are out of position to get a star player in the future. They have two expiring contracts of monumental proportions the year after this, and the cap dump that's about to take place over the next two years is on track to save the franchise. Have you even seen what the cap situation will be like for the Knicks over the next 2-3 years? If so, I don't understand how you're saying they won't be able to land anyone, that's COMPLETELY false.

I think its near impossible to get the big star nowadays as a free agent. Even if you can clear the cap room the home team can typically offer more money as long as they are willing to go over the cap to resign their own guy. I believe you can offer 6 years as compared to 7 for the team the person was previously on. The Knicks will have to be very careful to stay in good cap shape. While they dont have players on the books for that year they are going to need to sign guys just to make a 15 man roster. The question is do they sign all minimum level types or do they go the 6 million MLE route over the next few seasons? Plus I dont think too many NBA teams are in bad cap shape when you move onto 2010 right now, which is the season you are looking at. Teams just dont have players under contract that long. My guess is the Knicks at 41 in 2009 and 28 in 2010 are right around the average for NBA teams right now.

Look, it's clear that you loathe Isiah, and that's cool, but stop pulling things out of thin air. Washington collapsed at the end of the year (due to injury as well) and the Knicks lost several games down the stretch that they should have, and would have won had they been healthy. They were also right up with Orlando and Jersey with about 20 games to go.

If you take that best stretch with Crawford for those 15 games the Knicks were playing at a .533 clip. If they continued at that pace they would have ended up with 39 wins. That would have been borderline playoffs leaning towards being out. Its not a given, which I think you feel it is.

And I dont loathe Isiah. I just think he has done a horrible job as the GM of the Knicks. Teams all have bad circumstances to deal with in the NBA. Since the Marbury trade the Knicks went 25-22, 33-49, 23-59 and 33-49. To me thats not improvement. I guess what it boils down to is if you feel that Lee and Curry are going to be stars than its a much better position than they were as the Layden 30 win Knicks. I just dont see this team as it currently is being that much better. More exciting and younger, but still not even a playoff team. If they can swing a deal for O'Neal, Lewis, or best of all Garnett that changes everything and Id agree they would be much better and potentially win the Atlantic next season, but right now I just see them treading water as a 37-40 win team for years unless they make a big change like that.

[Jason423]

BTW where can you find the stats for game winning shots? I found a link for something which I guess is the last 4 years combined which had Crawford at 9 for 34. I was actually surprised that Carter hits 30% of his. I see so many blocks on him and turnovers with the clock winding down I would have thought he was worse.

[SMC]

Originally Posted by RutgersJetFan

Bernard King enthusiasts (such as myself), would consider a statement like this blasphemy.

King was a premier player who's career was ruined by a devastating knee injury. But since his acquisition did not result in a championship run, I overlooked him. But we're really only talking about King and Pearl in the last 30 some odd years for the Knicks; that's a dreadful FA record.