college offering white only scholarships - Page 2 - Jets Insider.com Forums

jets5ever · 02-17-2004, 12:39 PM

I hear you TB.

I agree with everything in your last post. My posts were essentially concerned with current circumstances and not the problem as a whole or even as it trickles down to lower and secondary education.

I agree that minority education is a problem that has to be addressed and fully admit that I am completely lost as to how is should be done. I further admit that picking apart a flawed process like AA is a hellofalot easier than actually proposing an alternative solution, so in a lot of ways my ramblings amount to an elaborate cop-out.

But you make, as always, many salient points and have certainly given me some stuff to digest....

I hope you attend a Jets game next season at 16H, I'd love to meet up and have a brew or ten....

I am actually leaving for vacation in a bit...going to Disney in Florida with the fam during school break, yikes! :(

TerryBadway · 02-17-2004, 12:43 PM

Well have a good time in Fla bro......

I'm gonna try to make 1 or 2 games this season (Haven't been to one since the K.C. loss in 2002). I'll also try to stop by one of the draft parties, so i'll definitely catch up with some of you guys this year.

Boozer76 · 02-17-2004, 01:34 PM

Anyone ever hear the phrase "2 wrongs don't make a right"?? Seriously, the problem is there are many different scholarship programs that do favor certain ethnic/religious/racial groups. That in itself is just plain wrong.

The solution is real simple people. Race should not even be placed on an application. The college entry decision should be based on merit alone. Just as job applications should be. But this will never end as long as there is racism, racism from ALL groups.

Not to get all ritchous (sp??) on you guys, but wouldn't we just be be better off if when a minority moves into the house next to yours, your fist thought WASN'T "OMG what does this do to my property value!". Isn't it just easier and better to stop all racial discrimination in the first place and allow people to reap the rewards of their merit without fear of discrimination?? This whole petty argument of 'well if they get special treatment because of their ethnicity/race, then we should be allowed to discriminate against them and favor our race/ethnicity' is just stupid.

Decide if you want to be friends with a person based on their personality. Decide if you want to hire/work with someone based on their capacity to do the job well. Decide if you want to date someone based on whether or not they make you happy. Decide to accept kids into your colleges based on their grades. Because when race plays into any of the above, all it does is taint the decision and hinders yourself, your company, and your schools from being the best they can possibly be. Think about it this way: How foolish is a businessman that hires a white employee based on race who nets the company 1 mil a year in growth when there is a minority candidate who could have made him double? How foolish is it if he did just the opposite??

Govjetz · 02-17-2004, 02:54 PM

[quote][i]Originally posted by Boozer76[/i]@Feb 17 2004, 02:34 PM
[b] Anyone ever hear the phrase "2 wrongs don't make a right"?? Seriously, the problem is there are many different scholarship programs that do favor certain ethnic/religious/racial groups. That in itself is just plain wrong.

The solution is real simple people. Race should not even be placed on an application. The college entry decision should be based on merit alone. Just as job applications should be. But this will never end as long as there is racism, racism from ALL groups.

Not to get all ritchous (sp??) on you guys, but wouldn't we just be be better off if when a minority moves into the house next to yours, your fist thought WASN'T "OMG what does this do to my property value!". Isn't it just easier and better to stop all racial discrimination in the first place and allow people to reap the rewards of their merit without fear of discrimination?? This whole petty argument of 'well if they get special treatment because of their ethnicity/race, then we should be allowed to discriminate against them and favor our race/ethnicity' is just stupid.

Decide if you want to be friends with a person based on their personality. Decide if you want to hire/work with someone based on their capacity to do the job well. Decide if you want to date someone based on whether or not they make you happy. Decide to accept kids into your colleges based on their grades. Because when race plays into any of the above, all it does is taint the decision and hinders yourself, your company, and your schools from being the best they can possibly be. Think about it this way: How foolish is a businessman that hires a white employee based on race who nets the company 1 mil a year in growth when there is a minority candidate who could have made him double? How foolish is it if he did just the opposite?? [/b][/quote]
Boozer there still has to be something in place not necessarily AA to insure that the hiring practice wasn't based on race , but how to do that is the question. In a perfect world this would be easy alas ours is not quite perfect. I'm of multi ethic background and have seen it from different sides, heard racism from multiple fronts and seen it's affects. Perhaps someday when we as a people mature enough to see past the skin color or religious beliefs or sex of a person we will unlock a whole new dimension to our humanity

joiseyjet · 02-17-2004, 04:30 PM

If the (BLACK) NAACP Natinal Association fot the Advancement of Colored People can give out race based scolarships ,then there is no reason the (WHITE) NAACP National Association for the Advancement of Caucasion People shouldn`t be able to give out the same race based scolarships.....

TerryBadway · 02-17-2004, 04:39 PM

[quote][b]If the (BLACK) NAACP Natinal Association fot the Advancement of Colored People can give out race based scolarships ,then there is no reason the (WHITE) NAACP National Association for the Advancement of Caucasion People shouldn`t be able to give out the same race based scolarships..[/b][/quote]

Joisey,

Read my first response on this thread (It will make things a lot more clear). This is the problem when groups like this try to push an agenda by piggybacking off a contraversal issue.

joiseyjet · 02-17-2004, 05:17 PM

TERRY my feeling is no job,scolarship , loan or anything should be based on race ,but if one group is doing it and says it`s black pride ,you can`t call the other group raciest for doing the same thing , If in fact the NAACP was called the National Association for the Advancement of Caucasion People ,johhny cochron and rev. AL would be on every raido & tv station in the globe saying how raciest this is and needs to be stopped now ...

Boozer76 · 02-18-2004, 09:55 PM

[quote][i]Originally posted by Govjetz[/i]@Feb 17 2004, 03:54 PM
[b] Perhaps someday when we as a people mature enough to see past the skin color or religious beliefs or sex of a person we will unlock a whole new dimension to our humanity [/b][/quote]
I just hope my kids will still be around to see that day.

The Gun Of Bavaria · 02-18-2004, 11:54 PM

[quote][i]Originally posted by TerryBadway[/i]@Feb 17 2004, 12:24 PM
[b] [quote][b]Curious, from an African-American's point of view, why do you think enrollment is down across the board as stated in the article?[/b][/quote]

GOB,

Take note (I should've made this point more clear in my previous post) that this data is regarding B School statistics. Therefore, there can be numerous dynamics that effect the enrollment trends. Here are the four primary reasons enrollment is down IMHO:

1. Globalization has caused a heavy influx of International applicants. International applicants actually outnumber domestic applicants 2-to-1 at the top 25 MBA programs. Therefore, I know enrollment is down for black/white/hispanic Americans.

2. We're currently about 5 years past the dot.bomb era. From 99-01, grad school enrollment was up after so many people were laid off from their failed dot.com jobs. With the economy steadily improving, it's rational to assume that there is a higher percentage of upwardly mobile blacks with more secure job situations.

3. The costs of these top 25 MBA programs is huge. A full-time MBA is about a $100K investment, and there are no guarantees that a job will be waiting for you after those 2 years. It's a risky proposition that most folks who grew up poor aren't willing to take. I'm sure you can understand the trepidation one might feel if he/she doesn't have significant savings, or comes from a family that doesn't have wealth.

4. A basic lack of outreach programs for potential "qualified" minority candidates. Several years ago the U. of Cal (Berkley) eliminated not only it's qouta based systems, but it also eliminated any sort of recruitment based on race. The result, we currently have 9 black students in Cal Berkley's MBA progam. This would be a-ok with me if this was a private program (Harvard, Stanford, Dartmouth), but this is a State school for christ sakes. For them to be actively recruiting kids in Bombay, and completely neglecting kids in Compton (Who's families tax dollars are funding the operations of the school) is a complete joke. So i'd say that the lack of general outreach is another compelling reason why minority enrollment is down. [/b][/quote]
Sorry I've been hiding lately, I got into the middle of this thread and then disappeared.

TB....well written and much understood response.

While I enjoyed all 4 points, I greatly enjoyed points 1 and 4 because it would seem that you and I have a lot in common, we just happen to look at it from different aspects. I share your belief that a great amound of damage is being done from the 'globalization' craze, or the influx of foreign influence on American instituitions. The only difference is I've always looked at it from mainly a buisness/manufacturing POV, and not from an educational point of view. The recent influx of foreign influence and outflux of American jobs, or in this case positions within education programs and institutions is a major threat to our country IMHO. In the last 10-15 years, we've loss an inordinate amount of manufacturing and high quality jobs to Mexico, China and a number of others. You bring up an excellent point that we're now importing students so to speak into our publically funded universities at the cost of American students, and as you state, minority students.

outsider · 02-20-2004, 12:08 AM

There have been plenty of white scholarships offered every year for legacies, the kids, grandkids and relatives of alums' that contribute to the endowment fund. Many of whom could not get into junior college if they had to.

At least there will be a contest to see which of the moronic legacies can actually write an essay because I am confident that those are the students that need this in the first place.

The really sad thing here is that if they just let in the best kids in the first place then race and racially derived scholarships would not be an issue.

02-17-2004, 12:39 PM	#21
jets5ever Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Boston Posts: 11,692	I hear you TB. I agree with everything in your last post. My posts were essentially concerned with current circumstances and not the problem as a whole or even as it trickles down to lower and secondary education. I agree that minority education is a problem that has to be addressed and fully admit that I am completely lost as to how is should be done. I further admit that picking apart a flawed process like AA is a hellofalot easier than actually proposing an alternative solution, so in a lot of ways my ramblings amount to an elaborate cop-out. But you make, as always, many salient points and have certainly given me some stuff to digest.... I hope you attend a Jets game next season at 16H, I'd love to meet up and have a brew or ten.... I am actually leaving for vacation in a bit...going to Disney in Florida with the fam during school break, yikes! :(

02-17-2004, 12:43 PM	#22
TerryBadway All League Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago (Via Harlem, Via Madison WI) Posts: 2,567	Well have a good time in Fla bro...... I'm gonna try to make 1 or 2 games this season (Haven't been to one since the K.C. loss in 2002). I'll also try to stop by one of the draft parties, so i'll definitely catch up with some of you guys this year.

02-17-2004, 01:34 PM	#23
Boozer76 Waterboy Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 5,713	Anyone ever hear the phrase "2 wrongs don't make a right"?? Seriously, the problem is there are many different scholarship programs that do favor certain ethnic/religious/racial groups. That in itself is just plain wrong. The solution is real simple people. Race should not even be placed on an application. The college entry decision should be based on merit alone. Just as job applications should be. But this will never end as long as there is racism, racism from ALL groups. Not to get all ritchous (sp??) on you guys, but wouldn't we just be be better off if when a minority moves into the house next to yours, your fist thought WASN'T "OMG what does this do to my property value!". Isn't it just easier and better to stop all racial discrimination in the first place and allow people to reap the rewards of their merit without fear of discrimination?? This whole petty argument of 'well if they get special treatment because of their ethnicity/race, then we should be allowed to discriminate against them and favor our race/ethnicity' is just stupid. Decide if you want to be friends with a person based on their personality. Decide if you want to hire/work with someone based on their capacity to do the job well. Decide if you want to date someone based on whether or not they make you happy. Decide to accept kids into your colleges based on their grades. Because when race plays into any of the above, all it does is taint the decision and hinders yourself, your company, and your schools from being the best they can possibly be. Think about it this way: How foolish is a businessman that hires a white employee based on race who nets the company 1 mil a year in growth when there is a minority candidate who could have made him double? How foolish is it if he did just the opposite??

02-17-2004, 02:54 PM	#24
Govjetz All League Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: NE PA Posts: 968	[quote][i]Originally posted by Boozer76[/i]@Feb 17 2004, 02:34 PM [b] Anyone ever hear the phrase "2 wrongs don't make a right"?? Seriously, the problem is there are many different scholarship programs that do favor certain ethnic/religious/racial groups. That in itself is just plain wrong. The solution is real simple people. Race should not even be placed on an application. The college entry decision should be based on merit alone. Just as job applications should be. But this will never end as long as there is racism, racism from ALL groups. Not to get all ritchous (sp??) on you guys, but wouldn't we just be be better off if when a minority moves into the house next to yours, your fist thought WASN'T "OMG what does this do to my property value!". Isn't it just easier and better to stop all racial discrimination in the first place and allow people to reap the rewards of their merit without fear of discrimination?? This whole petty argument of 'well if they get special treatment because of their ethnicity/race, then we should be allowed to discriminate against them and favor our race/ethnicity' is just stupid. Decide if you want to be friends with a person based on their personality. Decide if you want to hire/work with someone based on their capacity to do the job well. Decide if you want to date someone based on whether or not they make you happy. Decide to accept kids into your colleges based on their grades. Because when race plays into any of the above, all it does is taint the decision and hinders yourself, your company, and your schools from being the best they can possibly be. Think about it this way: How foolish is a businessman that hires a white employee based on race who nets the company 1 mil a year in growth when there is a minority candidate who could have made him double? How foolish is it if he did just the opposite?? [/b][/quote] Boozer there still has to be something in place not necessarily AA to insure that the hiring practice wasn't based on race , but how to do that is the question. In a perfect world this would be easy alas ours is not quite perfect. I'm of multi ethic background and have seen it from different sides, heard racism from multiple fronts and seen it's affects. Perhaps someday when we as a people mature enough to see past the skin color or religious beliefs or sex of a person we will unlock a whole new dimension to our humanity

02-17-2004, 04:30 PM	#25
joiseyjet Hall Of Fame Founding JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 9,359	If the (BLACK) NAACP Natinal Association fot the Advancement of Colored People can give out race based scolarships ,then there is no reason the (WHITE) NAACP National Association for the Advancement of Caucasion People shouldn`t be able to give out the same race based scolarships.....

02-17-2004, 04:39 PM	#26
TerryBadway All League Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago (Via Harlem, Via Madison WI) Posts: 2,567	[quote][b]If the (BLACK) NAACP Natinal Association fot the Advancement of Colored People can give out race based scolarships ,then there is no reason the (WHITE) NAACP National Association for the Advancement of Caucasion People shouldn`t be able to give out the same race based scolarships..[/b][/quote] Joisey, Read my first response on this thread (It will make things a lot more clear). This is the problem when groups like this try to push an agenda by piggybacking off a contraversal issue.

02-17-2004, 05:17 PM	#27
joiseyjet Hall Of Fame Founding JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 9,359	TERRY my feeling is no job,scolarship , loan or anything should be based on race ,but if one group is doing it and says it`s black pride ,you can`t call the other group raciest for doing the same thing , If in fact the NAACP was called the National Association for the Advancement of Caucasion People ,johhny cochron and rev. AL would be on every raido & tv station in the globe saying how raciest this is and needs to be stopped now ...

02-18-2004, 09:55 PM	#28
Boozer76 Waterboy Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 5,713	[quote][i]Originally posted by Govjetz[/i]@Feb 17 2004, 03:54 PM [b] Perhaps someday when we as a people mature enough to see past the skin color or religious beliefs or sex of a person we will unlock a whole new dimension to our humanity [/b][/quote] I just hope my kids will still be around to see that day.

02-18-2004, 11:54 PM	#29
The Gun Of Bavaria Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Detroit, Michigan Posts: 8,682	[quote][i]Originally posted by TerryBadway[/i]@Feb 17 2004, 12:24 PM [b] [quote][b]Curious, from an African-American's point of view, why do you think enrollment is down across the board as stated in the article?[/b][/quote] GOB, Take note (I should've made this point more clear in my previous post) that this data is regarding B School statistics. Therefore, there can be numerous dynamics that effect the enrollment trends. Here are the four primary reasons enrollment is down IMHO: 1. Globalization has caused a heavy influx of International applicants. International applicants actually outnumber domestic applicants 2-to-1 at the top 25 MBA programs. Therefore, I know enrollment is down for black/white/hispanic Americans. 2. We're currently about 5 years past the dot.bomb era. From 99-01, grad school enrollment was up after so many people were laid off from their failed dot.com jobs. With the economy steadily improving, it's rational to assume that there is a higher percentage of upwardly mobile blacks with more secure job situations. 3. The costs of these top 25 MBA programs is huge. A full-time MBA is about a $100K investment, and there are no guarantees that a job will be waiting for you after those 2 years. It's a risky proposition that most folks who grew up poor aren't willing to take. I'm sure you can understand the trepidation one might feel if he/she doesn't have significant savings, or comes from a family that doesn't have wealth. 4. A basic lack of outreach programs for potential "qualified" minority candidates. Several years ago the U. of Cal (Berkley) eliminated not only it's qouta based systems, but it also eliminated any sort of recruitment based on race. The result, we currently have 9 black students in Cal Berkley's MBA progam. This would be a-ok with me if this was a private program (Harvard, Stanford, Dartmouth), but this is a State school for christ sakes. For them to be actively recruiting kids in Bombay, and completely neglecting kids in Compton (Who's families tax dollars are funding the operations of the school) is a complete joke. So i'd say that the lack of general outreach is another compelling reason why minority enrollment is down. [/b][/quote] Sorry I've been hiding lately, I got into the middle of this thread and then disappeared. TB....well written and much understood response. While I enjoyed all 4 points, I greatly enjoyed points 1 and 4 because it would seem that you and I have a lot in common, we just happen to look at it from different aspects. I share your belief that a great amound of damage is being done from the 'globalization' craze, or the influx of foreign influence on American instituitions. The only difference is I've always looked at it from mainly a buisness/manufacturing POV, and not from an educational point of view. The recent influx of foreign influence and outflux of American jobs, or in this case positions within education programs and institutions is a major threat to our country IMHO. In the last 10-15 years, we've loss an inordinate amount of manufacturing and high quality jobs to Mexico, China and a number of others. You bring up an excellent point that we're now importing students so to speak into our publically funded universities at the cost of American students, and as you state, minority students.

02-20-2004, 12:08 AM	#30
outsider All League Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 711	There have been plenty of white scholarships offered every year for legacies, the kids, grandkids and relatives of alums' that contribute to the endowment fund. Many of whom could not get into junior college if they had to. At least there will be a contest to see which of the moronic legacies can actually write an essay because I am confident that those are the students that need this in the first place. The really sad thing here is that if they just let in the best kids in the first place then race and racially derived scholarships would not be an issue.