How do you guys feel about the MTA budget situation??

[Ha Ha Ha]

I think we all know fare raises are inevitable, but some of the proposed increases are insane. Some thoughts?

NYC Public Transit is subsidized heavily by the public near 70%

East River tolls would be an absolute logistical nightmare, traffic will be insane.

Commuter tax likely to return.

Huge toll increases in the making

Major service cuts and disruptions.

I guess it just bothers me that one of the largest cities in the world has the most inefficient and ancient public transit systems on the planet and all that's happening is demanding the public throw more money at the problem

[BrooklynBound]

Another example where the government runs things better. Who needs incentive? Just raise fees/taxes.

[long island leprechaun]

[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2894756]Another example where the government runs things better. Who needs incentive? Just raise fees/taxes.[/QUOTE]

Well, this is just knee-jerk. Let's imagine for a moment if all bridges, tunnels, ferries, buses and subways were run by private entities.... what do you think would have already happened to service, prices, and maintenance? The problem with the MTA is that it is not sufficiently accountable... it is in a shadow agency that is effectively accountable to no one.

[Ha Ha Ha]

The MTA is a public benefit corporation. Laughable.

[Bay Ridge Jet]

Getting on the Manhattan Bridge is horrible enough.

[Warfish]

[QUOTE=Vilma;2894667]I think we all know fare raises are inevitable, but some of the proposed increases are insane. Some thoughts?

NYC Public Transit is subsidized heavily by the public near 70%

East River tolls would be an absolute logistical nightmare, traffic will be insane.

Commuter tax likely to return.

Huge toll increases in the making

Major service cuts and disruptions.

I guess it just bothers me that one of the largest cities in the world has the most inefficient and ancient public transit systems on the planet and all that's happening is demanding the public throw more money at the problem[/QUOTE]


Here is a Fact every Taxpayer should be aware of:

Mass Transit (Rail or Bus) Does Not Make a Profit.

Never.

Ever.

In the entire History of the United States.

Anyone who says otherwise is either an outright liar, a politician (same thing), or manipulated the figures by hiding costs someplace they shouldn't.

This is a fact.

So.....

With that said, taxpayers have the responsabillity to determine is Mass Transit is something they want to pay for via their taxes. And vote accordingly.

Most Mass Transit Operations make back ~50-60% of Operation Cost (ONLY Operational Cost, the cost to go from A to B) from their fare box. The rest of Operation, and ALL of Capital Programs and Equipment Puchases and such, all of that comes from us, John Q. Taxpayer, in the form of Local, State and federal Subsidies, Grants and (in a few cases) loans.

So, the question then is this......do we, as a society, want Mass Transit? If we do, this is the cost. It isn't fungible. This IS the cost, end of story.

[fukushimajin]

[QUOTE=Warfish;2894965]Here is a Fact every Taxpayer should be aware of:

Mass Transit (Rail or Bus) Does Not Make a Profit.

Never.

Ever.

In the entire History of the United States.

Anyone who says otherwise is either an outright liar, a politician (same thing), or manipulated the figures by hiding costs someplace they shouldn't.

This is a fact.

So.....

With that said, taxpayers have the responsabillity to determine is Mass Transit is something they want to pay for via their taxes. And vote accordingly.

Most Mass Transit Operations make back ~50-60% of Operation Cost (ONLY Operational Cost, the cost to go from A to B) from their fare box. The rest of Operation, and ALL of Capital Programs and Equipment Puchases and such, all of that comes from us, John Q. Taxpayer, in the form of Local, State and federal Subsidies, Grants and (in a few cases) loans.

So, the question then is this......do we, as a society, want Mass Transit? If we do, this is the cost. It isn't fungible. This IS the cost, end of story.[/QUOTE]

No city can operate without it -- if you merely doubled car traffic around NYC (MTA carries many more people than this) the city would be paralyzed. Public transit is barely a choice.

I'm against adding any new tolls but do support raising tolls already in existence and the standard transit fare for now. To his credit the only guy who stood up to MTA's plan yesterday was Tony Hotdogs. He said that any increases should be met with some cost cutting at MTA. Pols are lining up to make another attempt at back-door congestion pricing.

[Phoenixx]

[QUOTE=Vilma;2894667]I think we all know fare raises are inevitable, but some of the proposed increases are insane. Some thoughts?

NYC Public Transit is subsidized heavily by the public near 70%

East River tolls would be an absolute logistical nightmare, traffic will be insane.

Commuter tax likely to return.

Huge toll increases in the making

Major service cuts and disruptions.

I guess it just bothers me that one of the largest cities in the world has the most inefficient and ancient public transit systems on the planet and all that's happening is demanding the public throw more money at the problem[/QUOTE]

What's missing on that list are any concessions by the TWU.

[Warfish]

[QUOTE=fukushimajin;2895077]No city can operate without it -- if you merely doubled car traffic around NYC (MTA carries many more people than this) the city would be paralyzed. Public transit is barely a choice.

I'm against adding any new tolls but do support raising tolls already in existence and the standard transit fare for now. To his credit the only guy who stood up to MTA's plan yesterday was Tony Hotdogs. He said that any increases should be met with some cost cutting at MTA. Pols are lining up to make another attempt at back-door congestion pricing.[/QUOTE]

"Cost Cutting" at a Public Transportation Agency is usually all but impossible, the kind of demand politicians and riders make without a shred of actual knowledge on how the agency runs.

Almost all public transportation agencies run about as close to the razors edge of fiscal failure as any industry around.

There will be no costs to cut.

Either more revenue/subsidy would be required, or services will be cut. Those are your choices.

[bitonti]

warfish the agencies themselves may make no profit but their benefit to society almost goes beyond measurement:

i.e. less cars on the road = less accidents, less deaths, less traffic, less productivity lost, less emmissions --> less urban asthma,

[fukushimajin]

[QUOTE=Warfish;2895103]"Cost Cutting" at a Public Transportation Agency is usually all but impossible, the kind of demand politicians and riders make without a shred of actual knowledge on how the agency runs.

Almost all public transportation agencies run about as close to the razors edge of fiscal failure as any industry around.

There will be no costs to cut.

Either more revenue/subsidy would be required, or services will be cut. Those are your choices.[/QUOTE]

I tend to agree, but I didn't like that the Ravitch commission didn't even explore the possibility. Anyway, I'll take an admission from a fiscal conservative that a public service runs at the razors edge of its resources any day of the week. Wait till you see how much better the Feds do than Humana:D

[Warfish]

[QUOTE=bitonti;2895176]warfish the agencies themselves may make no profit but their benefit to society almost goes beyond measurement:

i.e. less cars on the road = less accidents, less deaths, less traffic, less productivity lost, less emmissions --> less urban asthma,[/QUOTE]

I think you mistake/misunderstand my motivation for posting what I have thus far. I am not making a judgement in any form, not have I offered ANY opinion on the topic (I will below).

I am giving you facts. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am personally a supporter of Mass Transit, and support whatever moves the MTA (and any other Mass Transit) needs to make to provide the services they do. This is something the states and cities themselves need to step up and fund IMO. It is vital, and one of the (few) truly appropriate uses of taxpayer revenue a State can invest in.

[Ha Ha Ha]

[QUOTE=Warfish;2895252]I think you mistake/misunderstand my motivation for posting what I have thus far. I am not making a judgement in any form, not have I offered ANY opinion on the topic (I will below).

I am giving you facts. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am personally a supporter of Mass Transit, and support whatever moves the MTA (and any other Mass Transit) needs to make to provide the services they do. This is something the states and cities themselves need to step up and fund IMO. It is vital, and one of the (few) truly appropriate uses of taxpayer revenue a State can invest in.[/QUOTE]

Problem is, the MTA gambled with its money and invested in the stock market and took some heavy losses, and no one seems to care.....

[Warfish]

[QUOTE=Vilma;2895315]Problem is, the MTA gambled with its money and invested in the stock market and took some heavy losses, and no one seems to care.....[/QUOTE]

Link to this information please?

[Ha Ha Ha]

[QUOTE=Warfish;2895341]Link to this information please?[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/02/business/02global.html?pagewanted=print[/url]

[Warfish]

[QUOTE=Vilma;2895366][url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/02/business/02global.html?pagewanted=print[/url][/QUOTE]

Appreciate it, will into it over the weekend.

[MnJetFan]

Exactly the Transit Unions have you by the balls, keep on funding the MTA and our demands or we will shut the system down. What started off as a good ideabto protect the workers has turned into cancer which is driving all the jobs ouut of the country,, destroying the auto industry and holding this country hostage with the politicians they bought and paid for. God Bless the Union States of America.

[Jman21]

It's more than just the unions. It's the bad choices, mismanagement, keeping to set of accounting records....it just goes on and on. Until there is a housecleaning and accountability I will not be ok with fare hikes. You can't keep going to the well.