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Ha Ha Ha · 12-11-2008, 09:01 AM

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Piper · 12-11-2008, 10:00 AM

Democrats gotta take care of the union voters, right?

Even if they are making $78/hr to put a sticker on a car!!

PlumberKhan · 12-11-2008, 11:17 AM

[QUOTE=Piper;2904967]Democrats gotta take care of the union voters, right?

Even if they are making $78/hr to put a sticker on a car!![/QUOTE]

Stop the jihad against working stiffs.

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?hp=&pagewanted=print[/url]

Warfish · 12-11-2008, 11:33 AM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905139]Stop the jihad against working stiffs.

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?hp=&pagewanted=print[/url][/QUOTE]

Working Stiffs? Sorry Plumber, I feel for working stiffs.

Auto Workers don't even come close to that description. How many working stiffs you know make more to not work (or to stand at a button and press it every so often) than some small Company CEO's do? Lets not play teh BS game, U.S. Domestic Builder Auto Workers are quite overpaid, have held up on modernization of production (so as not to lose jobs), limit our choices (via no-domestic-company-import-to-US rules) and have, and continue to, strangle the profitabillity of American car makers.

One of the folks in the House, I think, summed it up well. GM and Toyota sold, gloablly, the same number of cars in 2007. GM lost somethign like 30 Billion, Toyota made almost 20 Billion.

Yes, management is at fault. No question whatsoever, and all of the Big 3 executive teams should be fired.

But the Auto Union bears alot of responsabillity to. Instead of simply working to get what would be appropriate compensation, they have gotton far mroe than any sane market would dictate they are worth. And the results speak for themselves.

Cue the "No Fish, it's because of no green cars" trolls.....

PlumberKhan · 12-11-2008, 12:24 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;2905172]Working Stiffs? Sorry Plumber, I feel for working stiffs.

Auto Workers don't even come close to that description. How many working stiffs you know make more to not work (or to stand at a button and press it every so often) than some small Company CEO's do? Lets not play teh BS game, U.S. Domestic Builder Auto Workers are quite overpaid, have held up on modernization of production (so as not to lose jobs), limit our choices (via no-domestic-company-import-to-US rules) and have, and continue to, strangle the profitabillity of American car makers.

One of the folks in the House, I think, summed it up well. GM and Toyota sold, gloablly, the same number of cars in 2007. GM lost somethign like 30 Billion, Toyota made almost 20 Billion.

Yes, management is at fault. No question whatsoever, and all of the Big 3 executive teams should be fired.

But the Auto Union bears alot of responsabillity to. Instead of simply working to get what would be appropriate compensation, they have gotton far mroe than any sane market would dictate they are worth. And the results speak for themselves.

Cue the "No Fish, it's because of no green cars" trolls.....[/QUOTE]

Sorry Fish...they aren't really that overpaid. Quite a few of the people around me work at the Ford plant down the road and they aren't in any way "rich".

Wanna know who is overpaid though? The a-holes from the finacial sector who made millions packaging and repacking auto loans and home loans to make it look as if they were making money and stuffed their pockets to the brim right before everything came crashing down around them. I failed to see any ire on this board directed to those people as much as I see it against union workers.

Warfish · 12-11-2008, 12:27 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905284]Sorry Fish...they aren't really that overpaid. Quite a few of the people around me work at the Ford plant down the road and they aren't in any way "rich".[/QUOTE]

Sorry Plumb, but you're simply wrong IMO. The market proves it (partially) via the economic failure of U.S. Auto-makers.

And subjectively, I simply disagree with you, I do not believe Auto-workers are wroth twice the average hourly salary of the rest of us. Especially given all the perks (like paid for not working) the Union has gained.

By the way, to me, $55-75/hour IS rich. It's far more than I make, and I [U]guarantee[/U] you I work just as hard if not harder than these auto-workers do.

CTM · 12-11-2008, 12:30 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905284]Sorry Fish...they aren't really that overpaid. Quite a few of the people around me work at the Ford plant down the road and they aren't in any way "rich".

Wanna know who is overpaid though? The a-holes from the finacial sector who made millions packaging and repacking auto loans and home loans to make it look as if they were making money and stuffed their pockets to the brim right before everything came crashing down around them. I failed to see any ire on this board directed to those people as much as I see it against union workers.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you missed where I said anyone working for any of these companies making over 250k a year should be heavily fined. Let those ****ers pay their share of the bailout..

BrooklynBound · 12-11-2008, 12:32 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905284]Sorry Fish...they aren't really that overpaid. Quite a few of the people around me work at the Ford plant down the road and they aren't in any way "rich".

Wanna know who is overpaid though? The a-holes from the finacial sector who made millions packaging and repacking auto loans and home loans to make it look as if they were making money and stuffed their pockets to the brim right before everything came crashing down around them. I failed to see any ire on this board directed to those people as much as I see it against union workers.[/QUOTE]

Not being rich doesn't mean you aren't overpaid. It means you're paid more than your worth.

PlumberKhan · 12-11-2008, 02:41 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;2905293]By the way, to me, $55-75/hour IS rich. It's far more than I make, and I [U]guarantee[/U] you I work just as hard if not harder than these auto-workers do.[/QUOTE]

Huh. Well, maybe I stand corrected. I could of sworn that you were one of the ones here who was saying that when Obama considered people making 250K rich, he was wrong.

Well, at least we can agree on something. A person making 135,000 - 150,000 is rich.

parafly · 12-11-2008, 02:45 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905676]Well, at least we can agree on something. A person making 135,000 - 150,000 is rich.[/QUOTE]

Are you nuts? That's not even Joe the Plumber money! :P

Warfish · 12-11-2008, 02:50 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905676]Huh. Well, maybe I stand corrected. I could of sworn that you were one of the ones here who was saying that when Obama considered people making 250K rich, he was wrong.

Well, at least we can agree on something. A person making 135,000 - 150,000 is rich.[/QUOTE]

You are mixing your issues.

One is for purposes of taxation (i.e. redistribution of the results of ones work effort to the State, the inherant "debt" each owes to society).

One is for the market "value of work" of a given work task.

If you truly believe these auto workers are worth $55-75 a hour, even when not actually working, then we simply disagree. No worries, I would expect you (a Union Guy in a Union Industry) to feel that way. Lord knows, some Plumbers make similar hourly-rates.

sackdance · 12-11-2008, 03:10 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905139]Stop the jihad against working stiffs.

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?hp=&pagewanted=print[/url][/QUOTE]
You have got to be kidding me. "stiffs"? More like a dying breed of exalted beneficiaries.

PlumberKhan · 12-11-2008, 03:19 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;2905704]You are mixing your issues.

One is for purposes of taxation (i.e. redistribution of the results of ones work effort to the State, the inherant "debt" each owes to society).

One is for the market "value of work" of a given work task.

If you truly believe these auto workers are worth $55-75 a hour, even when not actually working, then we simply disagree. No worries, I would expect you (a Union Guy in a Union Industry) to feel that way. Lord knows, some Plumbers make similar hourly-rates.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20134718/[/url]

[QUOTE]By most accounts, labor expenses for General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC amount to about [B]10 percent of the price of a new vehicle[/B], including wages, benefits and "legacy" costs for retiree pensions and health care.
[/QUOTE]

10% per vehicle is relatively small. A plumber usually gets 40-50% in labor...

PlumberKhan · 12-11-2008, 03:22 PM

[QUOTE=sackdance;2905753]You have got to be kidding me. "stiffs"? More like a dying breed of exalted beneficiaries.[/QUOTE]

Pipe down...we already know how much you hate working Americans...get back to your arugula and Starbucks...

Warfish · 12-11-2008, 03:27 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905781]10% per vehicle is relatively small. A plumber usually gets 40-50% in labor...[/QUOTE]

Well, I don't have comparative numbers in front of me for other manufacturing business, but you should remember one primary difference.

One is a Manufacturing Job creating a singlular product.

One is a service job.

Obviously, the cost-per-labor for the two will not be similar, percentage-of-cost wise.

BrooklynBound · 12-11-2008, 03:32 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905793]Pipe down...we already know how much you hate working Americans...get back to your arugula and Starbucks...[/QUOTE]

If you don't work with your hands, you're not a working American?

PlumberKhan · 12-11-2008, 03:43 PM

[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2905825]If you don't work with your hands, you're not a working American?[/QUOTE]

No.

And just because you are paid well to work with your hands doesn't make you a lazy, dying breed of exalted beneficiaries.

You know me...I take the opposite tack that I see other posters doing. I call it "The Warfish Doctrine":D...

Seriously...it just bothers me that the Republican MO is to break the balls of the working man. Their labor costs are 10 freaking percent. What do you guys want it to be? 5%? Wow....that would reduce the price of a car by a whopping 600 bucks. This whole "labor is to blame" is just interference put up by the real people who f*cked sh*t up...

BrooklynBound · 12-11-2008, 03:46 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905845]No.

And just because you are paid well to work with your hands doesn't make you a lazy, dying breed of exalted beneficiaries.

You know me...I take the opposite tack that I see other posters doing. I call it "The Warfish Doctrine":D...

Seriously...it just bothers me that the Republican MO is to break the balls of the working man. Their labor costs are 10 freaking percent. What do you guys want it to be? 5%? Wow....that would reduce the price of a car by a whopping 600 bucks. This whole "labor is to blame" is just interference put up by the real people who f*cked sh*t up...[/QUOTE]
While I enjoy my job, I'm still "at work." I wouldn't do it for free. I'm a working American, sorry.

cr726 · 12-11-2008, 03:59 PM

What was our country built on?
Times have changed, but we no longer care if we make anything anymore. The shareholders are more important than our country's health.

Sad.

[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2905825]If you don't work with your hands, you're not a working American?[/QUOTE]

PlumberKhan · 12-11-2008, 05:45 PM

[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2905849]While I enjoy my job, I'm still "at work." I wouldn't do it for free. I'm a working American, sorry.[/QUOTE]

Ummmm. Ok? That's great...

At least you don't have a political party motivated in mob form to hate you...

12-11-2008, 09:01 AM	#1
Ha Ha Ha Board Moderator Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brooklyn Heights Posts: 2,461	New Ad from the Big 3 - Read the Fine Print! [IMG]http://buffalobeast.com/133/bigthree.jpg[/IMG]

12-11-2008, 03:19 PM	#13
PlumberKhan HAIL SATAN! Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,078	[QUOTE=Warfish;2905704]You are mixing your issues. One is for purposes of taxation (i.e. redistribution of the results of ones work effort to the State, the inherant "debt" each owes to society). One is for the market "value of work" of a given work task. If you truly believe these auto workers are worth $55-75 a hour, even when not actually working, then we simply disagree. No worries, I would expect you (a Union Guy in a Union Industry) to feel that way. Lord knows, some Plumbers make similar hourly-rates.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20134718/[/url] [QUOTE]By most accounts, labor expenses for General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC amount to about [B]10 percent of the price of a new vehicle[/B], including wages, benefits and "legacy" costs for retiree pensions and health care. [/QUOTE] 10% per vehicle is relatively small. A plumber usually gets 40-50% in labor... Last edited by PlumberKhan; 12-11-2008 at 03:23 PM.

12-11-2008, 10:00 AM	#2
Piper Hall Of Fame Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: L.I. NY (where the Jets used to be from) Posts: 13,197	Democrats gotta take care of the union voters, right? Even if they are making $78/hr to put a sticker on a car!!

12-11-2008, 11:17 AM	#3
PlumberKhan HAIL SATAN! Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,078	[QUOTE=Piper;2904967]Democrats gotta take care of the union voters, right? Even if they are making $78/hr to put a sticker on a car!![/QUOTE] Stop the jihad against working stiffs. [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?hp=&pagewanted=print[/url]

12-11-2008, 11:33 AM	#4
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905139]Stop the jihad against working stiffs. [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?hp=&pagewanted=print[/url][/QUOTE] Working Stiffs? Sorry Plumber, I feel for working stiffs. Auto Workers don't even come close to that description. How many working stiffs you know make more to not work (or to stand at a button and press it every so often) than some small Company CEO's do? Lets not play teh BS game, U.S. Domestic Builder Auto Workers are quite overpaid, have held up on modernization of production (so as not to lose jobs), limit our choices (via no-domestic-company-import-to-US rules) and have, and continue to, strangle the profitabillity of American car makers. One of the folks in the House, I think, summed it up well. GM and Toyota sold, gloablly, the same number of cars in 2007. GM lost somethign like 30 Billion, Toyota made almost 20 Billion. Yes, management is at fault. No question whatsoever, and all of the Big 3 executive teams should be fired. But the Auto Union bears alot of responsabillity to. Instead of simply working to get what would be appropriate compensation, they have gotton far mroe than any sane market would dictate they are worth. And the results speak for themselves. Cue the "No Fish, it's because of no green cars" trolls.....

12-11-2008, 12:24 PM	#5
PlumberKhan HAIL SATAN! Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,078	[QUOTE=Warfish;2905172]Working Stiffs? Sorry Plumber, I feel for working stiffs. Auto Workers don't even come close to that description. How many working stiffs you know make more to not work (or to stand at a button and press it every so often) than some small Company CEO's do? Lets not play teh BS game, U.S. Domestic Builder Auto Workers are quite overpaid, have held up on modernization of production (so as not to lose jobs), limit our choices (via no-domestic-company-import-to-US rules) and have, and continue to, strangle the profitabillity of American car makers. One of the folks in the House, I think, summed it up well. GM and Toyota sold, gloablly, the same number of cars in 2007. GM lost somethign like 30 Billion, Toyota made almost 20 Billion. Yes, management is at fault. No question whatsoever, and all of the Big 3 executive teams should be fired. But the Auto Union bears alot of responsabillity to. Instead of simply working to get what would be appropriate compensation, they have gotton far mroe than any sane market would dictate they are worth. And the results speak for themselves. Cue the "No Fish, it's because of no green cars" trolls.....[/QUOTE] Sorry Fish...they aren't really that overpaid. Quite a few of the people around me work at the Ford plant down the road and they aren't in any way "rich". Wanna know who is overpaid though? The a-holes from the finacial sector who made millions packaging and repacking auto loans and home loans to make it look as if they were making money and stuffed their pockets to the brim right before everything came crashing down around them. I failed to see any ire on this board directed to those people as much as I see it against union workers.

12-11-2008, 12:27 PM	#6
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905284]Sorry Fish...they aren't really that overpaid. Quite a few of the people around me work at the Ford plant down the road and they aren't in any way "rich".[/QUOTE] Sorry Plumb, but you're simply wrong IMO. The market proves it (partially) via the economic failure of U.S. Auto-makers. And subjectively, I simply disagree with you, I do not believe Auto-workers are wroth twice the average hourly salary of the rest of us. Especially given all the perks (like paid for not working) the Union has gained. By the way, to me, $55-75/hour IS rich. It's far more than I make, and I [U]guarantee[/U] you I work just as hard if not harder than these auto-workers do.

12-11-2008, 12:30 PM	#7
CTM Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Not bababooey and I resent the implication Posts: 21,029	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905284]Sorry Fish...they aren't really that overpaid. Quite a few of the people around me work at the Ford plant down the road and they aren't in any way "rich". Wanna know who is overpaid though? The a-holes from the finacial sector who made millions packaging and repacking auto loans and home loans to make it look as if they were making money and stuffed their pockets to the brim right before everything came crashing down around them. I failed to see any ire on this board directed to those people as much as I see it against union workers.[/QUOTE] Maybe you missed where I said anyone working for any of these companies making over 250k a year should be heavily fined. Let those ****ers pay their share of the bailout..

12-11-2008, 12:32 PM	#8
BrooklynBound Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15,550	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905284]Sorry Fish...they aren't really that overpaid. Quite a few of the people around me work at the Ford plant down the road and they aren't in any way "rich". Wanna know who is overpaid though? The a-holes from the finacial sector who made millions packaging and repacking auto loans and home loans to make it look as if they were making money and stuffed their pockets to the brim right before everything came crashing down around them. I failed to see any ire on this board directed to those people as much as I see it against union workers.[/QUOTE] Not being rich doesn't mean you aren't overpaid. It means you're paid more than your worth.

12-11-2008, 02:41 PM	#9
PlumberKhan HAIL SATAN! Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,078	[QUOTE=Warfish;2905293]By the way, to me, $55-75/hour IS rich. It's far more than I make, and I [U]guarantee[/U] you I work just as hard if not harder than these auto-workers do.[/QUOTE] Huh. Well, maybe I stand corrected. I could of sworn that you were one of the ones here who was saying that when Obama considered people making 250K rich, he was wrong. Well, at least we can agree on something. A person making 135,000 - 150,000 is rich.

12-11-2008, 02:45 PM	#10
parafly so why side with anything? All Pro Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,315	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905676]Well, at least we can agree on something. A person making 135,000 - 150,000 is rich.[/QUOTE] Are you nuts? That's not even Joe the Plumber money! :P

12-11-2008, 02:50 PM	#11
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905676]Huh. Well, maybe I stand corrected. I could of sworn that you were one of the ones here who was saying that when Obama considered people making 250K rich, he was wrong. Well, at least we can agree on something. A person making 135,000 - 150,000 is rich.[/QUOTE] You are mixing your issues. One is for purposes of taxation (i.e. redistribution of the results of ones work effort to the State, the inherant "debt" each owes to society). One is for the market "value of work" of a given work task. If you truly believe these auto workers are worth $55-75 a hour, even when not actually working, then we simply disagree. No worries, I would expect you (a Union Guy in a Union Industry) to feel that way. Lord knows, some Plumbers make similar hourly-rates.

12-11-2008, 03:10 PM	#12
sackdance All Pro Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,906	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905139]Stop the jihad against working stiffs. [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?hp=&pagewanted=print[/url][/QUOTE] You have got to be kidding me. "stiffs"? More like a dying breed of exalted beneficiaries.

12-11-2008, 03:22 PM	#14
PlumberKhan HAIL SATAN! Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,078	[QUOTE=sackdance;2905753]You have got to be kidding me. "stiffs"? More like a dying breed of exalted beneficiaries.[/QUOTE] Pipe down...we already know how much you hate working Americans...get back to your arugula and Starbucks...

12-11-2008, 03:27 PM	#15
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905781]10% per vehicle is relatively small. A plumber usually gets 40-50% in labor...[/QUOTE] Well, I don't have comparative numbers in front of me for other manufacturing business, but you should remember one primary difference. One is a Manufacturing Job creating a singlular product. One is a service job. Obviously, the cost-per-labor for the two will not be similar, percentage-of-cost wise.

12-11-2008, 03:32 PM	#16
BrooklynBound Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15,550	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905793]Pipe down...we already know how much you hate working Americans...get back to your arugula and Starbucks...[/QUOTE] If you don't work with your hands, you're not a working American?

12-11-2008, 03:43 PM	#17
PlumberKhan HAIL SATAN! Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,078	[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2905825]If you don't work with your hands, you're not a working American?[/QUOTE] No. And just because you are paid well to work with your hands doesn't make you a lazy, dying breed of exalted beneficiaries. You know me...I take the opposite tack that I see other posters doing. I call it "The Warfish Doctrine":D... Seriously...it just bothers me that the Republican MO is to break the balls of the working man. Their labor costs are 10 freaking percent. What do you guys want it to be? 5%? Wow....that would reduce the price of a car by a whopping 600 bucks. This whole "labor is to blame" is just interference put up by the real people who fcked sht up...

12-11-2008, 03:46 PM	#18
BrooklynBound Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15,550	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2905845]No. And just because you are paid well to work with your hands doesn't make you a lazy, dying breed of exalted beneficiaries. You know me...I take the opposite tack that I see other posters doing. I call it "The Warfish Doctrine":D... Seriously...it just bothers me that the Republican MO is to break the balls of the working man. Their labor costs are 10 freaking percent. What do you guys want it to be? 5%? Wow....that would reduce the price of a car by a whopping 600 bucks. This whole "labor is to blame" is just interference put up by the real people who fcked sht up...[/QUOTE] While I enjoy my job, I'm still "at work." I wouldn't do it for free. I'm a working American, sorry.

12-11-2008, 03:59 PM	#19
cr726 Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 13,526	What was our country built on? Times have changed, but we no longer care if we make anything anymore. The shareholders are more important than our country's health. Sad. [QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2905825]If you don't work with your hands, you're not a working American?[/QUOTE]

12-11-2008, 05:45 PM	#20
PlumberKhan HAIL SATAN! Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,078	[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2905849]While I enjoy my job, I'm still "at work." I wouldn't do it for free. I'm a working American, sorry.[/QUOTE] Ummmm. Ok? That's great... At least you don't have a political party motivated in mob form to hate you...