Official Stadium Opener/Sham Coin Toss thread (merged)

[jetswin]

[QUOTE=FF2®;3531902]:eek:

sg3 banned?

.[/QUOTE]
just for the day, I don't feel like monitoring the battles he was brewing

[eaglenj]

[QUOTE=SAR I;3531816][B]

It's not just me.....plenty of New Yorkers coming off of summer vacation won't feel comfortable sneaking out of work at 2pm to get a little tailgating in and beat the traffic. Especially those executive types who, you know, could afford the PSL's.

SAR I[/QUOTE]

That is absolutely ridiculous to say....for any fan but espeically your PSL Group. You seem to be the only "high roller" who also has a problem getting out of work for the jets home opener in a brand new stadium.

Most of us dont have a problem with that.....since, you know, we dont have to be afraid to leave work early.

[Vinny Patrollie]

[QUOTE=jetswin;3531913]just for the day, I don't feel like monitoring the battles he was brewing[/QUOTE]

But he'll be his same charming, sunny self tomorrow, too!?:eek:

[crasherino]

[QUOTE=Traitor Jay & the Woodies;3531911]Fate had *nothing* to do with the Giants hosting the first game.

If a coin was actually involved, it was flipped only until it produced a Mara-Tish favored result.

The Giants were always going to get this game. If a pure coin-flip were to decide who got the first game, they could have made it into a made-for-TV event in the middle of Times Square. Both teams need to sell more PSLs and any awareness around the new stadium would have been welcome publicity.

Think about the opportunity/publicity lost in not playing up "The Flip".[/QUOTE]

Maybe Ham was right and I am obtuse - But I think you are tilting at windmills, even if you don't care about it one way or another.

[Queens Jet Fan]

[QUOTE=crasherino;3531958]Maybe Ham was right and I am obtuse - But I think you are tilting at windmills, even if you don't care about it one way or another.[/QUOTE]
Crash you didn't ask me but I will chip in my answer. I'm not really sure. On the one hand I'm not a conspiratory kind of guy.

On the other hand I can see this scenario playing out.

Goodell was in a bind. He didn't want to anger either side but deep down he favored the Giants. The Giants were dead set against a coin flip. They wanted no part of it.

Therefore he rules for the Giants but to save face he said he made a coin flip and the Giants won. This works out best for him because the Giants obviously can't complain because they won. The Jets can huff an puff a bit but can't really do anything about it because he says it wasn't a ruling just a coin flip.

It's really hard to envision a coin flip happening in secret like that. I think this was just a face saving job by Goodell.

[Traitor Jay & the Woodies]

[QUOTE=crasherino;3531958]Maybe Ham was right and I am obtuse - But I think you are tilting at windmills, even if you don't care about it one way or another.[/QUOTE]

That's okay. Wouldn't be the first time I was accused of tilting at windmills.

It's such a bizarre incident. Over something that should be so transparent. I dunno. Seems implausible to me that it wasn't already decided. Possible. Sure. But unlikely, imo.

[Phoenixx]

[QUOTE=Traitor Jay & the Woodies;3531911]If a coin was actually involved, it was flipped only until it produced a Mara-Tish favored result.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Queens Jet Fan;3531969]It's really hard to envision a coin flip happening in secret like that. I think this was just a face saving job by Goodell.[/QUOTE]

Seems you guys have common ground with the folks you are "arguing" with.

But you don't care..because you expected this result all along.
And they do care..because it propagates that SOJ aura that they are trying to shake.

Personally, I don't care about opening the home...
I just care about opening at home.

So I am perfectly fine with the end result....but it is nice to see Woody show some balls.

[crasherino]

[QUOTE=Queens Jet Fan;3531969]Crash you didn't ask me but I will chip in my answer. I'm not really sure. On the one hand I'm not a conspiratory kind of guy.

On the other hand I can see this scenario playing out.

Goodell was in a bind. He didn't want to anger either side but deep down he favored the Giants. The Giants were dead set against a coin flip. They wanted no part of it.

Therefore he rules for the Giants but to save face he said he made a coin flip and the Giants won. This works out best for him because the Giants obviously can't complain because they won. The Jets can huff an puff a bit but can't really do anything about it because he says it wasn't a ruling just a coin flip.

It's really hard to envision a coin flip happening in secret like that. I think this was just a face saving job by Goodell.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, I probably owe an apology to Ham and others who I referred to as crazy conspiracy theorists....I still think you're wildly off base, but apparently I'm more in the minority than I think.

But, just to debate the underlying premise, why would Goodell favor the Giants so greatly that he would risk his credibility to ensure that they got the opening game? While us fans think of MNF as an inconvenience, the league and teams view it as a positive, so overall, I'm not really sure that the Sunday game is that much better, on an overall front. Unlike spygate, this is a relatively inconsequential issue....why risk a cover up over something that he doesn't care about?

To me, the coin toss was simply an after thought and done quickly because they needed to go on with scheduling the season. Turning it into a media event seems all well and good for all of us, but that takes time and effort, something that the league wasn't really counting on. In retrospect, poorly conceived and thought out, but it makes perfect sense.

But, I guess I was rash in dismissing this POV. Any Pats/non-Jet fans want to weigh in on this? Honest opinion....do you think there's a chance that the coin toss was a sham? (obviously we don't know for sure).

[superjets69]

Yep I am with U 100% since IMHO if there really/truly was a coin flip why did Mr. Goody not have the toss videoed tape & then posted on YT for the entire FB world to see? To my way of thinking because he did not do that the coin toss NEVER/EVER existed

:mad:




[QUOTE=crasherino;3531987]Firstly, I probably owe an apology to Ham and others who I referred to as crazy conspiracy theorists....I still think you're wildly off base, but apparently I'm more in the minority than I think.

But, just to debate the underlying premise, why would Goodell favor the Giants so greatly that he would risk his credibility to ensure that they got the opening game? While us fans think of MNF as an inconvenience, the league and teams view it as a positive, so overall, I'm not really sure that the Sunday game is that much better, on an overall front. Unlike spygate, this is a relatively inconsequential issue....why risk a cover up over something that he doesn't care about?

To me, the coin toss was simply an after thought and done quickly because they needed to go on with scheduling the season. Turning it into a media event seems all well and good for all of us, but that takes time and effort, something that the league wasn't really counting on. In retrospect, poorly conceived and thought out, but it makes perfect sense.

But, I guess I was rash in dismissing this POV. Any Pats/non-Jet fans want to weigh in on this? Honest opinion....do you think there's a chance that the coin toss was a sham? (obviously we don't know for sure).[/QUOTE]

[Traitor Jay & the Woodies]

[QUOTE=Phoenixx;3531983]Seems you guys have common ground with the folks you are "arguing" with.

But you don't care..because you expected this result all along.
And they do care..because it propagates that SOJ aura that they are trying to shake.[/QUOTE]

+1

This is accurate.

The venom directed at me and QJF was more about who was saying what more than what was actually being said.

It's baggage I have to deal with on this board every day. So be it.

[Queens Jet Fan]

[QUOTE=crasherino;3531987]Firstly, I probably owe an apology to Ham and others who I referred to as crazy conspiracy theorists....I still think you're wildly off base, but apparently I'm more in the minority than I think.

But, just to debate the underlying premise, why would Goodell favor the Giants so greatly that he would risk his credibility to ensure that they got the opening game? While us fans think of MNF as an inconvenience, the league and teams view it as a positive, so overall, I'm not really sure that the Sunday game is that much better, on an overall front. Unlike spygate, this is a relatively inconsequential issue....why risk a cover up over something that he doesn't care about?

To me, the coin toss was simply an after thought and done quickly because they needed to go on with scheduling the season. Turning it into a media event seems all well and good for all of us, but that takes time and effort, something that the league wasn't really counting on. In retrospect, poorly conceived and thought out, but it makes perfect sense.

But, I guess I was rash in dismissing this POV. Any Pats/non-Jet fans want to weigh in on this? Honest opinion....do you think there's a chance that the coin toss was a sham? (obviously we don't know for sure).[/QUOTE]
Now you're asking some tough questions. Why is he favoring the Giants? My answer is I really don't know but it seems like the NFL always has.

Woody was extremely foolish to have the NFL as the arbiter in any dispute with the Giants. Heck it was the NFL that put the squeeze on Woody to go in with the Giants and save their face.

Why did the NFL rule in favor of the Giants on the dispute over where the Giants practice facility would be?

Why a few years ago when both the Jets and the Giants wanted the Thursday night for the the last preseason game did he rule in favor of the Giants the Jets had to play on Friday night?

Why did the NFL rule in favor of the Giants when the Giants said the Jets did not take down their banners fast enough after Jet games?

Can you ever remember a time when the NFL ruled in favor of the Jets on any dispute? I can't.

Maybe it's just the personality's involved. Maybe Mara/Tisch are just more respected then Woody amongst the owners. The [I]Times [/I] article came straight out and said that.

Now as to the part of why Goodell would risk his credibility. There's no easy answer to that but then again there is no easy answer as to why do the coin toss in private. Isn't that risking his credibility? I mean what would have been the big deal to have some team reps there (other then pissing off the Giants who did not want a coin toss - ummmm)? Is he that stupid to believe that this manner would raise questions?

I think he was a bit surprised by the fallout. Woody has serious grounds to be angry but of course Woody being Woody he went about it all the wrong way with the stupid press release on Saturday night.

[crasherino]

[QUOTE=Queens Jet Fan;3532018]Now you're asking some tough questions. Why is he favoring the Giants? My answer is I really don't know but it seems like the NFL always has.

Woody was extremely foolish to have the NFL as the arbiter in any dispute with the Giants. Heck it was the NFL that put the squeeze on Woody to go in with the Giants and save their face.

Why did the NFL rule in favor of the Giants on the dispute over where the Giants practice facility would be?

Why a few years ago when both the Jets and the Giants wanted the Thursday night for the the last preseason game did he rule in favor of the Giants the Jets had to play on Friday night?

Why did the NFL rule in favor of the Giants when the Giants said the Jets did not take down their banners fast enough after Jet games?

Can you ever remember a time when the NFL ruled in favor of the Jets on any dispute? I can't.

Maybe it's just the personality's involved. Maybe Mara/Tisch are just more respected then Woody amongst the owners. The [I]Times [/I] article came straight out and said that.

Now as to the part of why Goodell would risk his credibility. There's no easy answer to that but then again there is no easy answer as to why do the coin toss in private. Isn't that risking his credibility? I mean what would have been the big deal to have some team reps there (other then pissing off the Giants who did not want a coin toss - ummmm)? Is he that stupid to believe that this manner would raise questions?

I think he was a bit surprised by the fallout. Woody has serious grounds to be angry but of course Woody being Woody he went about it all the wrong way with the stupid press release on Saturday night.[/QUOTE]

I honestly don't know enough about those previous disputes to speak about them intelligently. Before you mentioned it earlier in this thread, I had no idea that the NFL had to weigh in on where the Giants would have their facility. Couldn't find anything on Google - do you have a link you could share? I'm interested to read about that.

As far as the private coin toss, I think the league never even thought about having it in public simply because it was part of a larger, more important issue - making the schedule. They probably saw having the coin toss as a concession to the Jets in that they were actually having it. From one perspective, its kind of silly to have a public spectacle over a coin toss that is simply designed to see who is playing on Sun, who is on Monday. In retrospect, the league certainly regrets that decision as now there is at least an appearance of impropriety. Rather than make it public (which could have been an option), the league could simply have called each team and said "You have 45 minutes to send an intern, a rep, the owner....whoever, down to Park Ave. to watch the coin toss. Starting now." Unfortunately, they didn't.

Also, how does the conversation go between Goodell and Woody (who, by all accounts, had a good relationship beforehand)?

Woody: Rog, I'm disappointed by this....whats the story with this coin toss?

Goodell: Woody, I swear, it was on the up and up....Mr. X and Mr. Y were watching the whole time and there was nothing out of the ordinary....here, I'll get them
(Goodell runs to Mr. X and Mr. Y, makes sure everyone's story is straight)

Mr. X: It happened just as Rog said...promise.

Sorry, I just don't see this as an issue important enough to warrant a concerted cover up by the league, which would have to be done, because inevitably questions are asked. People in the league have certainly been questioned as to who specifically flipped the coin and who was watching. Sh!t like this can easily come out. Its not worth having the league's credibility being torn to shreds over something that they shouldn't care about. If Goodell cared enough to give the Giants the first game, he simply would have said, "Sorry, that's the way it came out."

[crasherino]

[QUOTE=Queens Jet Fan;3532018]

Can you ever remember a time when the NFL ruled in favor of the Jets on any dispute? I can't. [/QUOTE]

We got compensation from the Pats for taking BB and we got compensation from the Chiefs for taking Hermie. Those worked out in our favor.

[Queens Jet Fan]

[QUOTE=crasherino;3532037]We got compensation from the Pats for taking BB and we got compensation from the Chiefs for taking Hermie. Those worked out in our favor.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I was talking about disputes with the Giants.

[Traitor Jay & the Woodies]

[QUOTE=crasherino;3532033]I honestly don't know enough about those previous disputes to speak about them intelligently. Before you mentioned it earlier in this thread, I had no idea that the NFL had to weigh in on where the Giants would have their facility. Couldn't find anything on Google - do you have a link you could share? I'm interested to read about that.

As far as the private coin toss, I think the league never even thought about having it in public simply because it was part of a larger, more important issue - making the schedule. They probably saw having the coin toss as a concession to the Jets in that they were actually having it. From one perspective, its kind of silly to have a public spectacle over a coin toss that is simply designed to see who is playing on Sun, who is on Monday. In retrospect, the league certainly regrets that decision as now there is at least an appearance of impropriety. Rather than make it public (which could have been an option), the league could simply have called each team and said "You have 45 minutes to send an intern, a rep, the owner....whoever, down to Park Ave. to watch the coin toss. Starting now." Unfortunately, they didn't.

Also, how does the conversation go between Goodell and Woody (who, by all accounts, had a good relationship beforehand)?

Woody: Rog, I'm disappointed by this....whats the story with this coin toss?

Goodell: Woody, I swear, it was on the up and up....Mr. X and Mr. Y were watching the whole time and there was nothing out of the ordinary....here, I'll get them
(Goodell runs to Mr. X and Mr. Y, makes sure everyone's story is straight)

Mr. X: It happened just as Rog said...promise.

Sorry, I just don't see this as an issue important enough to warrant a concerted cover up by the league, which would have to be done, because inevitably questions are asked. People in the league have certainly been questioned as to who specifically flipped the coin and who was watching. Sh!t like this can easily come out. Its not worth having the league's credibility being torn to shreds over something that they shouldn't care about. If Goodell cared enough to give the Giants the first game, he simply would have said, "Sorry, that's the way it came out."[/QUOTE]

You certainly can disagree as the marketing value of promoting a "flip" to build buzz around the stadium and PSLs for both teams. I see it as a missed opportunity, you don't - so be it.

But this issue was a point of contention going in. Both owners wanted the honor of hosting the first game. It is/was a conflict. If a flip of the coin was going to decide said conflict -- why wouldn't it be conducted like every official coin toss the NFL holds?

Has their ever been a coin flip conducted where the two parties competing did not have representation at said flip? This practice goes back to the Roman empire. There is a protocol/ceremony to the activity. A tradition that the NFL always follows either on field or in the league HQ. Except this one time. They forgot to do that this time. Right.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I agree with Ham. A flip without witnesses should not count as an official flip.

:D

[Queens Jet Fan]

[QUOTE=crasherino;3532033]I honestly don't know enough about those previous disputes to speak about them intelligently. Before you mentioned it earlier in this thread, I had no idea that the NFL had to weigh in on where the Giants would have their facility. Couldn't find anything on Google - do you have a link you could share? I'm interested to read about that.

As far as the private coin toss, I think the league never even thought about having it in public simply because it was part of a larger, more important issue - making the schedule. They probably saw having the coin toss as a concession to the Jets in that they were actually having it. From one perspective, its kind of silly to have a public spectacle over a coin toss that is simply designed to see who is playing on Sun, who is on Monday. In retrospect, the league certainly regrets that decision as now there is at least an appearance of impropriety. Rather than make it public (which could have been an option), the league could simply have called each team and said "You have 45 minutes to send an intern, a rep, the owner....whoever, down to Park Ave. to watch the coin toss. Starting now." Unfortunately, they didn't.

Also, how does the conversation go between Goodell and Woody (who, by all accounts, had a good relationship beforehand)?

Woody: Rog, I'm disappointed by this....whats the story with this coin toss?

Goodell: Woody, I swear, it was on the up and up....Mr. X and Mr. Y were watching the whole time and there was nothing out of the ordinary....here, I'll get them
(Goodell runs to Mr. X and Mr. Y, makes sure everyone's story is straight)

Mr. X: It happened just as Rog said...promise.

Sorry, I just don't see this as an issue important enough to warrant a concerted cover up by the league, which would have to be done, because inevitably questions are asked. People in the league have certainly been questioned as to who specifically flipped the coin and who was watching. Sh!t like this can easily come out. Its not worth having the league's credibility being torn to shreds over something that they shouldn't care about. If Goodell cared enough to give the Giants the first game, he simply would have said, "Sorry, that's the way it came out."[/QUOTE]
You may be right about the coin toss. We'll never know. I just think my scenario is more plausable.

Sorry I don't have a link. I was pretty interested in the happenings during the time and remember the dispute over the practice site. The Jets were pretty firm and so were the Giants. What the NFL worked out was that the Giant's site would be at a more remote part of the complex not right next to the stadium - like that makes a difference.

Actually when the architectual plans were actually drawn up they had to put the Giants site closer then what the original deal called for. By then it was too late and the Jets as usual just plainly caved.

[Gas2No99]

:deadhorse:

[crasherino]

[QUOTE=Traitor Jay & the Woodies;3532055][B]You certainly can disagree as the marketing value of promoting a "flip" to build buzz around the stadium and PSLs for both teams. I see it as a missed opportunity, you don't - so be it.[/B]

But this issue was a point of contention going in. Both owners wanted the honor of hosting the first game. It is/was a conflict. If a flip of the coin was going to decide said conflict -- why wouldn't it be conducted like every official coin toss the NFL holds?

Has their ever been a coin flip conducted where the two parties competing did not have representation at said flip? This practice goes back to the Roman empire. There is a protocol/ceremony to the activity. A tradition that the NFL always follows either on field or in the league HQ. Except this one time. They forgot to do that this time. Right.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I agree with Ham. A flip without witnesses should not count as an official flip.

:D[/QUOTE]

Oh, lets be clear, I see the marketing value completely. I think this was a complete screw up by the league....in hindsight. They totally screwed the pooch here. They could have held it in Time Square, they could have had Frank Gifford on one side, Joe Namath on the other, they could have had the guys thumb wrestle for the honor of calling it in the air, and televised it on ABC.

They didn't. Bad move on their part. I choose to believe in the incompetence/lack of forethought here rather than a conspiracy.
That's all.

[crasherino]

[QUOTE=Queens Jet Fan;3532058]You may be right about the coin toss. We'll never know. [B]I just think my scenario is more plausable.[/B]

Sorry I don't have a link. I was pretty interested in the happenings during the time and remember the dispute over the practice site. The Jets were pretty firm and so were the Giants. What the NFL worked out was that the Giant's site would be at a more remote part of the complex not right next to the stadium - like that makes a difference.

Actually when the architectual plans were actually drawn up they had to put the Giants site closer then what the original deal called for. By then it was too late and the Jets as usual just plainly caved.[/QUOTE]

Your scenario being: Goodell saying to his PR staff "Just pretend we had a coin toss"?

[Queens Jet Fan]

[QUOTE=crasherino;3532093]Your scenario being: Goodell saying to his PR staff "Just pretend we had a coin toss"?[/QUOTE]
Well he doesn't have to say to his PR staff let's pretend. He could have told them that he did.

I think that your scenario makes Goodell too much of an incompetent.