The Omnibus Draft Thread (fka Brooks Reed to Jets)

[Come Back to NY]

Originally Posted by Slikmojet

Hey Bit what happened man, you and CBTNY smoked the peace pipe in Mobile? You better pick a fight before the combine or I will lose all respect for you

There needs to be a Mount Cody sized argument here soon or else! Where's Gato when you need him?

eventually they all see the light....granted you are still wallowing in the mire...

[FijiJet]

Originally Posted by WeeZiTe

I'd be ecstatic to come away with Taylor AND Reed, but as of right now I'd be disappointed to come away with either of them in the late first round. Trading down always sounds like a great idea, but we never do it. It's something that we really need to look into this year because the value in the second and third rounds looks amazing.

Very true, the talent in the top half of the draft is very DL heavy, we should get some big value picks in the second and third. Perhaps the franchise tag and trade route of someone like Holmes could get us some high picks.

Given that we have some difficulties with the cap as it currently stands, releasing some of our valuable talent seems inevitable not only to resign our core players but also to have the space to sign our 2011 draft picks. Of course clarifying the CBA quickly should allow us to gauge exactly where we stand with available cap space

[BigJet85]

Given all the intangibles in Football players who are drafted high and low are just the same in my opinion....

I think that if you find a player who is willing to learn what system they are put in and are willing to be part of the system will be the most successful.

Look at jamal westerman. This kid has put everything he has into any time he gets playing time on the field into production.

What about David Harris? I know he is a bad example but the guy shuts his mouth and does his job...regardless of the coach regardless of what is going on he plays Ball. He goes out week in and week out and gives it his all and it pays off for him. he shuts his mouth about money and everything and plays. he should have been a 2 time pro bowler at this point and due to the stupid nfl voting he hasnt....but this guy just does his job...

I think our draft picks need to be guys who are the right character guys and are willing to give "it" up for the team and learn and do what is asked of them.

I think stock in how high you get drafted is superbly over rated and it should be about the player the ethic and what his actual "football IQ" is not if he is the best or worst just if he is willing to do anything it takes to get on the field and PRODUCE,

Look at Westerman for us...I think he will be a starter next season because of what he shows the Coaches, the fans and what he will bring to the game. which is production and a threat at any given time he is out there, quietly the way it should be done. NOT HIS DRAFT STATUS!

Sorry thats my late night Early morning rant...i Have off today so i just wanted to get this drafting stuff off my chest fellas.

[TheMo]

Originally Posted by BigJet85

Given all the intangibles in Football players who are drafted high and low are just the same in my opinion....

I think that if you find a player who is willing to learn what system they are put in and are willing to be part of the system will be the most successful.

Look at jamal westerman. This kid has put everything he has into any time he gets playing time on the field into production.

What about David Harris? I know he is a bad example but the guy shuts his mouth and does his job...regardless of the coach regardless of what is going on he plays Ball. He goes out week in and week out and gives it his all and it pays off for him. he shuts his mouth about money and everything and plays. he should have been a 2 time pro bowler at this point and due to the stupid nfl voting he hasnt....but this guy just does his job...

I think our draft picks need to be guys who are the right character guys and are willing to give "it" up for the team and learn and do what is asked of them.

I think stock in how high you get drafted is superbly over rated and it should be about the player the ethic and what his actual "football IQ" is not if he is the best or worst just if he is willing to do anything it takes to get on the field and PRODUCE,

Look at Westerman for us...I think he will be a starter next season because of what he shows the Coaches, the fans and what he will bring to the game. which is production and a threat at any given time he is out there, quietly the way it should be done. NOT HIS DRAFT STATUS!

Sorry thats my late night Early morning rant...i Have off today so i just wanted to get this drafting stuff off my chest fellas.

Unfortunately this might only work near the top of the draft where the talent pool tends to be high overall (even then you might pass on a bigger talent that eventually becomes elite for a blue collar guy who is a solid starter). Mangini had the same approach to the draft that you are talking about and while we ended up with some real blue chippers near the top of the draft, we also had some epic fails in the middle and later on even at the top (see boar hunter, gholston, who regardless of what people wanna say now was seen as a hard working guy). Drafting players based on the "football player" model can be pretty disastrous if taken to the extreme you are mentioning.

[bitonti]

Originally Posted by BigJet85

Look at Westerman for us...I think he will be a starter next season

if this were true they wouldn't need to target an OLB pass rusher early in the draft. Westerman is a special teamer, and kinda marginal. Great person from all accounts but I doubt the Jets see him as an impact player.

[augustiniak]

Originally Posted by bitonti

if this were true they wouldn't need to target an OLB pass rusher early in the draft. Westerman is a special teamer, and kinda marginal. Great person from all accounts but I doubt the Jets see him as an impact player.

i think (assuming) the CBA is completed, the jets will look to get 2 guys in free agency to improve the front 7, then look to the draft at BPA with an eye on young talent there. tanny learned his lesson (hopefully) with the gholston pick that you are more likely to get burned when you pick more based on need than what your draft board or scouts may say. when tanny has stuck to the draft board, he's done very well.

[Untouchable]

Originally Posted by bitonti

if this were true they wouldn't need to target an OLB pass rusher early in the draft. Westerman is a special teamer, and kinda marginal. Great person from all accounts but I doubt the Jets see him as an impact player.

+1

I know a lot of people are hoping that guys like Westerman, Dixon, Pitoitua, Gilbert, etc will turn into something, but the odds are against that happening.

We need to add some legit talent to the front seven before it goes from a weakness to being in total shambles.

[bitonti]

Originally Posted by augustiniak

i think (assuming) the CBA is completed, the jets will look to get 2 guys in free agency to improve the front 7, then look to the draft at BPA with an eye on young talent there. tanny learned his lesson (hopefully) with the gholston pick that you are more likely to get burned when you pick more based on need than what your draft board or scouts may say. when tanny has stuck to the draft board, he's done very well.

even with revisionist history, Gholston was the BPA at 6. People gloss over it, but at the time there was no other obvious pick to make.

Ideally they could fill out their need with FA but there probably wont be a FA period before the draft.

Also JMO taking a pass rusher is not a dire need. Even tho we moan about them, Thomas and Pace are still starters. It's more of a developmental thing... which is good cause it usually takes time to convert a DE to 3-4 OLB. the only position on the entire team where they "need" a starter in 2011 is probably free safety.

[crasherino]

Originally Posted by bitonti

even with revisionist history, Gholston was the BPA at 6. People gloss over it, but at the time there was no other obvious pick to make.

Ideally they could fill out their need with FA but there probably wont be a FA period before the draft.

Also JMO taking a pass rusher is not a dire need. Even tho we moan about them, Thomas and Pace are still starters. It's more of a developmental thing... which is good cause it usually takes time to convert a DE to 3-4 OLB. the only position on the entire team where they "need" a starter in 2011 is probably free safety.

Ya think? I actually thought Pool picked up his game once Leonhard went down. He had a couple of breakdowns (Garcon's TD), but overall, he played his best in the playoffs. I used to think that Safety was one of the biggest needs on this team, but I'm not so sure now.

I wouldn't be surprised if the team re-signed Pool if the price was right. It took him a while to adjust, I think, but now that he's a vet of this defense, I'm bullish on him.

[jetsfan1983]

Pool was good late in the year...

The only need position imo will be at OLB. Thomas is definitely gone, and Taylor is likely gone. That leaves you Pace and Westerman and I'm not sure they see Westerman as a starter.

Same with the Ellis DE position if they don't bring him back. He's not getting any younger and his production wasn't great outside of that New England game.

[bitonti]

Originally Posted by jetsfan1983

Thomas is definitely gone, and Taylor is likely gone.

why is Bryan Thomas definitely gone? He's under contract... has played pretty well overall. He and Pace are on the wrong side of 30 but they are gonna be starters next year, right?

[bitonti]

Originally Posted by crasherino

Ya think? I actually thought Pool picked up his game once Leonhard went down. He had a couple of breakdowns (Garcon's TD), but overall, he played his best in the playoffs. I used to think that Safety was one of the biggest needs on this team, but I'm not so sure now.

I wouldn't be surprised if the team re-signed Pool if the price was right. It took him a while to adjust, I think, but now that he's a vet of this defense, I'm bullish on him.

eric smith is also a free agent and hes a special teams dynamo that also plays alot on real D... so with him and Pool not under contract it's a pretty bad need. I will agree that Pool got better but he's more of a strong safety playing out of position... i dont think they have a true coverage safety right now.

[Untouchable]

Originally Posted by bitonti

why is Bryan Thomas definitely gone? He's under contract... has played pretty well overall. He and Pace are on the wrong side of 30 but they are gonna be starters next year, right?

We clear up almost $5 million in cap space if we cut Thomas.

I don't see anyway we keep him. Same thing for Damien Woody.

[eaglenj]

Originally Posted by bitonti

even with revisionist history, Gholston was the BPA at 6. People gloss over it, but at the time there was no other obvious pick to make.

Ideally they could fill out their need with FA but there probably wont be a FA period before the draft.

Also JMO taking a pass rusher is not a dire need. Even tho we moan about them, Thomas and Pace are still starters. It's more of a developmental thing... which is good cause it usually takes time to convert a DE to 3-4 OLB. the only position on the entire team where they "need" a starter in 2011 is probably free safety.

I just dont see thomas as a good enough starter given our overall defense and the fact that he saves us $3.6 million with no cap hit.

Is he a dependable, veteran player...sure, but he is very slow, and doesnt do any one particular thing exceptionally. If we had some young, fast players that needed a veteran presence I could see it. But we have all slower-veteran LBs and need to inject some speed and youth into the position.

Pace took a lot of heat this year, and I think that was overdone. He is a very good player....he is just not a star. If the Dline in general is getting pressure, and Pace can be isolated, he is very good (see his sack/forced fumble on brady). But if he is facing an OT who has help, hes not a guy who is gonna split a double team.

I think we can live with either a DE or OLB out of this draft and then work westerman into the mix for thomas. Ideally we can trade down into the second round and wind up with a Taylor in the 2nd, beal with one 3rd and BPA with the other 3rd.

[bitonti]

Originally Posted by Untouchable

We clear up almost $5 million in cap space if we cut Thomas.

I don't see anyway we keep him. Same thing for Damien Woody.

interesting... this makes OLB a huge need. I dont see Westerman as starting material.

[augustiniak]

Originally Posted by eaglenj

I just dont see thomas as a good enough starter given our overall defense and the fact that he saves us $3.6 million with no cap hit.

Is he a dependable, veteran player...sure, but he is very slow, and doesnt do any one particular thing exceptionally. If we had some young, fast players that needed a veteran presence I could see it. But we have all slower-veteran LBs and need to inject some speed and youth into the position.

Pace took a lot of heat this year, and I think that was overdone. He is a very good player....he is just not a star. If the Dline in general is getting pressure, and Pace can be isolated, he is very good (see his sack/forced fumble on brady). But if he is facing an OT who has help, hes not a guy who is gonna split a double team.

I think we can live with either a DE or OLB out of this draft and then work westerman into the mix for thomas. Ideally we can trade down into the second round and wind up with a Taylor in the 2nd, beal with one 3rd and BPA with the other 3rd.

guys like pace, thomas, scott and ellis are all fine, but not together. you need to mix in younger guys with more speed/explosiveness so that you have a blend of savvy veterans and young energy. the jets front 7 lacks the pure young energy/speed right now, and that's why they can't get off the field on 3rd downs enough.

[crasherino]

Originally Posted by Untouchable

We clear up almost $5 million in cap space if we cut Thomas.

I don't see anyway we keep him. Same thing for Damien Woody.

$3.7 mil according to Jason. I guess it all depends on whether there is a better way to spend that money - can the Jets find an OLB that's cheaper?

They may be able to get Thomas to reduce that number a bit - if so, I think there's a chance he stays. He's not great, but he's serviceable. And having Pace and Westerman as the only experienced guys is not ideal at all.

[eaglenj]

Originally Posted by crasherino

$3.7 mil according to Jason. I guess it all depends on whether there is a better way to spend that money - can the Jets find an OLB that's cheaper?

They may be able to get Thomas to reduce that number a bit - if so, I think there's a chance he stays. He's not great, but he's serviceable. And having Pace and Westerman as the only experienced guys is not ideal at all.

The thing is I dont want Thomas to stay, even at a reduced rate.

Every team needs a mix of veterans and young players, mainly for speed and athleticism, and if we keep these vets hanging around, taking reps away from our young guys, its gonna hurt us long term.

Both Bart Scott and Adalius Thomas were guys that rarely played in their 1st 2 years under Rex and then came in and flourished. They took time to learn the pro game, learn the system, and were able to use their physical ability to thrive once they were comfortable in the defense.

Westerman was a very good pass rusher in college who needed to transition to LB in the pros, and we have given him the time and support to do that; something Rex has excelled at with multiple players in his career.

There is something to be said for brining players along slowly (and is talked about all the time for QBs....the David Carrs - vs - the Rodgers). Maybe westerman wont pan out even with time to develop, who knows....but we certainly wont know if we bury his speed and pass rushing on the bench and go through another season with an average player at OLB.

This way we hopefully wont need a top pick to learn the system and pro game in order to contribute immediately....we can find a Brooks Reed/Beal to draft in the 2nd or 3rd round, who can sit behind scott/pace, learn and replace one of them in a year or 2.

[Much ado about Nothing]

I'd rather see Westerman at ILB than DE/OLB...it's easier to survive there as a starter...I hope he's not a starting option at either spot...something I agree with bit on.

Bit, I do find it funny that you know Westerman's ability to start but praise guys like Pito (who might not even be on the roster next year because rule #1 is don't get hurt), Kroul, and whoever the other JAG DL are on the practice squad...I kinda like Dixon though.

[njherdfan]

Originally Posted by Joe W. Namath

Do you guys think Peyton Hillis and Clay Matthews are changing scouts views in evaluating white players?

huh? Before Clay Matthews there was Kevin Greene. Once the players get to college scouts don't use race as a factor. You can argue they get pigeon-holed into positions at a young age due to race, but that's a separate issue.