Pats Thinking?

[IndianaJet]

So much was made of the Pats having so many draft picks in the first 3 rounds this year. But....once again....they trade like crazy and end up with 2 #1s and 2 #2s next year.

Unfortunately, this is what I think the Pats were thinking.

Those picks next year could be worth a lot more next year then they would have been worth this year.

Why? - Rookie wage scale.

I'm 100% certain that whatever deal gets worked out this year, next year, the number 1, No. 1...isn't getting a contract with $30 million in guarantees and first round draft choices will be much easier to sign from a financial perspective.

That makes, taking any combination of your 2 #1s and 2 #2s and trading them to get into the top 5 a much easier pill to swallow.

Pats will be able to do whatever they want next year, from a pick perspective and from a $$$ perspective.

Fudge....

[Johnny Rico]

Damn, that's a really really good point. I've been fine with them trading down over the years because they haven't exactly "hit". I am a big fan of Tanny's strategy of trading up for can't missers. But this could be bad if the Pats decide to trade up next year. Hopefully they continue their trend and keep trading down. I have a feeling they will just keep doing that in the hopes that one of the teams they trade with ends up being a bottom 10 team or something, like the year they got the 7th overall pick.

[Slikmojet]

I think they trade up and down all day, but at the end of the day they always come up short when it comes to drafting, it's become a pattern with them. THey needed to come up with a couple of defensive linemen and a couple of pass rushers and instead watched the Jets take their guy. I'm not impressed with the Solder pick either, think Constanzo was a better choice there. Constanzo and Muhammad were perfect picks for them but they blew it. Then they go out and draft a QB that will sit behind Brady for years and went out and got two backs who will be no better than than Woody and BJGE, I'm not worried abot the Pats, especially after the beating we gave them in the playoffs.

[The Boston Patriot]

Originally Posted by Slikmojet

I think they trade up and down all day, but at the end of the day they always come up short when it comes to drafting, it's become a pattern with them. THey needed to come up with a couple of defensive linemen and a couple of pass rushers and instead watched the Jets take their guy. I'm not impressed with the Solder pick either, think Constanzo was a better choice there. Constanzo and Muhammad were perfect picks for them but they blew it. Then they go out and draft a QB that will sit behind Brady for years and went out and got two backs who will be no better than than Woody and BJGE, I'm not worried abot the Pats, especially after the beating we gave them in the playoffs.

The Pats are screwed. All their draft picks suck. All their players suck.
I'll bet they only win the AFCE by a game next year if they play the
season. Cripes, they might only go 12-4 instead of 14-2. Definitely
on the down side.

[Slikmojet]

Originally Posted by The Boston Patriot

The Pats are screwed. All their draft picks suck. All their players suck.
I'll bet they only win the AFCE by a game next year if they play the
season. Cripes, they might only go 12-4 instead of 14-2. Definitely
on the down side.

They're great come playoff time too...

[JB1089]

Originally Posted by IndianaJet

So much was made of the Pats having so many draft picks in the first 3 rounds this year. But....once again....they trade like crazy and end up with 2 #1s and 2 #2s next year.

Unfortunately, this is what I think the Pats were thinking.

Those picks next year could be worth a lot more next year then they would have been worth this year.

Why? - Rookie wage scale.

I'm 100% certain that whatever deal gets worked out this year, next year, the number 1, No. 1...isn't getting a contract with $30 million in guarantees and first round draft choices will be much easier to sign from a financial perspective.

That makes, taking any combination of your 2 #1s and 2 #2s and trading them to get into the top 5 a much easier pill to swallow.

Pats will be able to do whatever they want next year, from a pick perspective and from a $$$ perspective.

Fudge....

You're only about the 10,000th person to have realized this. My friends that are Pats fans have made the genius of this strategy very clear to me, pretty much ever since the owners opted out of the last CBA.

My response was, and remains: "Belichick PLANNED to throw away 3 years of Brady's career so he could potentially have a top 5 pick as his HOF QB enters his late 30s? A pick that, if acquired, may or may not be a bust? HOW BRILLIANT!!! ALL HAIL THE GREAT BELICHICK!!!!'

[BFfan]

Originally Posted by Slikmojet

I think they trade up and down all day, but at the end of the day they always come up short when it comes to drafting, it's become a pattern with them. THey needed to come up with a couple of defensive linemen and a couple of pass rushers and instead watched the Jets take their guy. I'm not impressed with the Solder pick either, think Constanzo was a better choice there. Constanzo and Muhammad were perfect picks for them but they blew it. Then they go out and draft a QB that will sit behind Brady for years and went out and got two backs who will be no better than than Woody and BJGE, I'm not worried abot the Pats, especially after the beating we gave them in the playoffs.

What exactly is the pattern? Moving back every single year to get extra picks yet still landing a pro bowler in the first round?

[patman]

The patriots strategy is to maintain a SB competitive every year long term, not just for a 2 or 3 year run.

[Slikmojet]

Them Pats love competin' come playoff time though...

In 08, we bounced them right out of the playoffs with that monday night game with Favre.

In 09 Rex's old team made mince meat out of them up in Foxborough.

And then in 10... Need I say more?

Rex is 3-2 against the Cheats and 1 and 0 when it counts. Wake me when the he Pats beat us when it counts, or win a meaningful game when it counts.



P.S- ***

[BFfan]

Originally Posted by Slikmojet

Them Pats love competin' come playoff time though...

In 08, we bounced them right out of the playoffs with that monday night game with Favre.

In 09 Rex's old team made mince meat out of them up in Foxborough.

And then in 10... Need I say more?

Rex is 3-2 against the Cheats and 1 and 0 when it counts. Wake me when the he Pats beat us when it counts, or win a meaningful game when it counts.




P.S- ***

Ah the response of a 10 year old- turn an adult discussion into a bitter and off topic rant (given the time of your post I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were up after a long night of drinking).

No one is claiming the Patriots recent playoff performances are anything short of disappointing, but this conversation is about their drafting- in which you and several others still cling to comparisons of drafts from 2005-2007 ( of which you wont find a single Patriot fan that claims the Jet's drafts were anything but outstanding). However, I don't think criticism of the Patriots drafts as of late is really all that reasonable, especially in the context that they have completely rebuilt their team while remaining a Superbowl contender.

On that note, pound your chest all you want about the Jets going 3-2 against the Pats the last two seasons, but as you alluded, wake me up when you win something that matters.

[Slikmojet]

Originally Posted by BFfan

Ah the response of a 10 year old- turn an adult discussion into a bitter and off topic rant (given the time of your post I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were up after a long night of drinking).

No one is claiming the Patriots recent playoff performances are anything short of disappointing, but this conversation is about their drafting- in which you and several others still cling to comparisons of drafts from 2005-2007 ( of which you wont find a single Patriot fan that claims the Jet's drafts were anything but outstanding). However, I don't think criticism of the Patriots drafts as of late is really all that reasonable, especially in the context that they have completely rebuilt their team while remaining a Superbowl contender.

On that note, pound your chest all you want about the Jets going 3-2 against the Pats the last two seasons, but as you alluded, wake me up when you win something that matters.

The Pats blew the draft this year, even writers who live with their noses up Belichicks ass were disappointed. How do you go into the draft with your biggest weakness being your front seven and come away empty handed? They go out and draft two mid round talent RB's when they already have Green Ellis and Woodhead, they blew it with the QB pick who will be holding a clipboard for five years minimum... for what? For a future second rounder? The Pats are always thinking long term but their present's not as rosy. How did they Pats rebuild their team with their draft? Take away Wilfork and that defense is dogsht. Winning four away games in the playoffs in meaningful, wake me up when the Pats win anything meaningful without cheating.

[BFfan]

Originally Posted by Slikmojet

The Pats blew the draft this year, even writers who live with their noses up Belichicks ass were disappointed. How do you go into the draft with your biggest weakness being your front seven and come away empty handed? They go out and draft two mid round talent RB's when they already have Green Ellis and Woodhead, they blew it with the QB pick who will be holding a clipboard for five years minimum... for what? For a future second rounder? The Pats are always thinking long term but their present's not as rosy. How did they Pats rebuild their team with their draft? Take away Wilfork and that defense is dogsht. Winning four away games in the playoffs in meaningful, wake me up when the Pats win anything meaningful without cheating.

1. It is the same BS argument about the Patriots "reaching" every single year. Bottom line- the Patriots have nailed first round picks as of late so I think it is reasonable to give their scouting the benefit of the doubt.


2. Offensive Tackle was a huge need- much more than defensive front seven in my opinion. Again, why don't you wait to see how Solder plays before you proclaim the Pat's blew it. Interesting quote- guess who said this:

Scott Wright: Who is the best opposing player you’ve faced in your college career?

Nate Solder. He’s a beast. When you’re that big and you’re that quick, it’s real scary for guys like me. He can match you on every step. And I went against other guys: Jason Smith, Trent Williams, and Russell Okung. All those guys are great, but Nate Solder’s excellent.


3. How many running backs do the Patriots have under contract as of right now? Look it up and get back to me- it might say something as to why they picked up some MID ROUND running backs. By the same logic, why are the Jets drafting Powell when they have drafted running backs the last two years, why are the Jets drafting a QB when they have Sanchez? It is absolutely idiotic logic.


4. How are you possibly arguing that the Patriots have not completely transformed the composition of their team through the draft. You come off as ridiculous. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not- almost the entire defense is drafted/undrafted free agents from the last few years. Not only that but they were a pretty respectable 8th in points allowed last season.

5. Why no mention of Ras I Dowling and the fact that if he stays healthy he could be a fantastic press corner? Didn't you start a thread raising the point that the Jets should draft Dowling in the first round and that he will be a shutdown corner opposite Revis? Or did you change your mind because Mel Kiper thought it was a reach.

Why no mention of the fact that the Patriots grabbed an additional first and second rounder in what will be a much deeper draft with a rookie wage scale nonetheless? Why no mention of the fact that Cannon, a projected second rounder two weeks before the draft, has stopped his cancer treatment and appears likely to play this season? What will you say if two years from now the Patriots do land an early second round pick for Mallet similar to the Kevin Kolb situation?

[Dirtstar]

this argument is self-contradictory.

in the past, teams looking to trade out of the Top-5 would do so to avoid paying huge amounts in guaranteed money for a prospect that may or may not bust.

if the new CBA makes it that Top-5 picks won't be getting nearly a much money, then the incentive to trade down is reduced.

and to add to what others have said -- sure, the Pats* look poised to do very well on draft day next year. but setting themselves up for this has cost them dearly in the short term. they haven't won a playoff game since the 2007 season, essentially letting 4 years of Brady's prime go to waste.

even if they use all those picks to move up in the draft to grab Brady's successor, the chances of that player becoming an All-Time Top 5 QB (like Brady) will be slim to none. so why waste the real thing??

[BFfan]

Originally Posted by Dirtstar

this argument is self-contradictory.

in the past, teams looking to trade out of the Top-5 would do so to avoid paying huge amounts in guaranteed money for a prospect that may or may not bust.

if the new CBA makes it that Top-5 picks won't be getting nearly a much money, then the incentive to trade down is reduced.

and to add to what others have said -- sure, the Pats* look poised to do very well on draft day next year. but setting themselves up for this has cost them dearly in the short term. they haven't won a playoff game since the 2007 season, essentially letting 4 years of Brady's prime go to waste.

even if they use all those picks to move up in the draft to grab Brady's successor, the chances of that player becoming an All-Time Top 5 QB (like Brady) will be slim to none. so why waste the real thing??

What has cost them dearly in the short term? I really don't understand this. People act like they are mortgaging top 10 picks for future second rounders or 50 cents on the dollar year after year. They blew it because they moved down like seven picks in the late first round for McCourty last year? Or because they traded a third rounder for what became Ras I Dowling this year?

[Dirtstar]

Originally Posted by BFfan

What has cost them dearly in the short term? I really don't understand this. People act like they are mortgaging top 10 picks for future second rounders or 50 cents on the dollar year after year. They blew it because they moved down like seven picks in the late first round for McCourty last year? Or because they traded a third rounder for what became Ras I Dowling this year?

it has cost them in the sense than instead of stockpiling future picks, they could've "cashed in" on some of those assets and use them to build a legit supporting cast for Brady to keep making runs at the Superbowl.

they have a top 5 QB of all time. it makes no sense to waste 3-4 of his prime years so that they get "good value" in drafting Ras I Dowling. everybody applauded the Seymour trade as another stroke of genius from BB, but that Raiders #1 pick didn't do **** to help them get their first playoff win since the 2007 season.

[BFfan]

Originally Posted by Dirtstar

it has cost them in the sense than instead of stockpiling future picks, they could've "cashed in" on some of those assets and use them to build a legit supporting cast for Brady to keep making runs at the Superbowl.

they have a top 5 QB of all time. it makes no sense to waste 3-4 of his prime years so that they get "good value" in drafting Ras I Dowling. everybody applauded the Seymour trade as another stroke of genius from BB, but that Raiders #1 pick didn't do **** to help them get their first playoff win since the 2007 season.

My point is that the "stockpiling" of picks is not generated by trading impact draft picks for 50 cents on the dollar. I'm sorry but if trading a mid third round pick for a future second is your idea of "not cashing in" then your argument is very weak (especially in light of the fact that the Patriots have a lot of picks year after year which gives them the luxury of doing precisely what they do).

The Seymour argument is pretty irrelevant at this point-sure he certainly could have helped in 2008 (but at the same time Brady went down that year so I guess the issue is whether he REALLY would have mattered). After that his contract was up, he made it very clear he was fed up with the hometown discount and wanted to be paid and he has been (to the exorbitant rate if like 12 million per season). There was no way the Patriots were paying both he and Wilfork as the highest paid players at their position, especially with Ty Warren also locked up at big money. The Jets have had the luxury of being a mediocre team for a long time and as a result have not had to deal with the "problems" inherent in juggling the salary cap and keeping all your great players. The practical effect of your argument is akin to me saying "the Jets are blowing it this year by not re-signing Harris, Edwards, Cromartie, Smith, and Holmes this year." From a business perspective I think any rationale fan realizes it is not possible.

[Dirtstar]

Originally Posted by BFfan

My point is that the "stockpiling" of picks is not generated by trading impact draft picks for 50 cents on the dollar. I'm sorry but if trading a mid third round pick for a future second is your idea of "not cashing in" then your argument is very weak (especially in light of the fact that the Patriots have a lot of picks year after year which gives them the luxury of doing precisely what they do).

no, you're simply not getting what i'm saying.

what i'm saying is that instead of continuously trading down in ALL rounds, not just mid-third as you stated above, they have blown a few opportunities to consolidate some of those picks and select "blue chip" prospects which would've probably helped them more than the plethora of mediocre talent they've grabbed in the middle rounds, a lot of which aren't even on the team anymore.

for example: Clay Matthews was available when the Pats* were on the clock in 2009. instead of grabbing a pass-rushing linebacker, which has been a need for NE for a while, they moved down (for the second time) by trading #26 and a fifth-rounder, and got a second-rounder and two thirds, one of which they then traded for a 2010 second.

yeah, they got great value in terms of picks and flexibility, and they used that 2010 second-rounder to grab Gronkowski. but at the end of the day, they probably would've been better served by drafting Clay Matthews.

[BFfan]

Originally Posted by Dirtstar

no, you're simply not getting what i'm saying.

what i'm saying is that instead of continuously trading down in ALL rounds, not just mid-third as you stated above, they have blown a few opportunities to consolidate some of those picks and select "blue chip" prospects which would've probably helped them more than the plethora of mediocre talent they've grabbed in the middle rounds, a lot of which aren't even on the team anymore.

for example: Clay Matthews was available when the Pats* were on the clock in 2009. instead of grabbing a pass-rushing linebacker, which has been a need for NE for a while, they moved down (for the second time) by trading #26 and a fifth-rounder, and got a second-rounder and two thirds, one of which they then traded for a 2010 second.

yeah, they got great value in terms of picks and flexibility, and they used that 2010 second-rounder to grab Gronkowski. but at the end of the day, they probably would've been better served by drafting Clay Matthews.

You might have a case for needing to trade up if they have been botching first rounders as of late, which unfortunately, is not the case at all. They are getting blue chip players where they are supposed to and they trade up in later rounds just as much as they do back. I guess your argument is that they should do something similar to what Atlanta did this past year? Sorry but if I were an Atlanta fan I would not be pleased- that is a exorbitant price to pay for an unproven rookie. There really are no sure things-even "blue chippers" in the top 10- Jets and Lions fans should be quite familiar with this reality ( I would rather have McCourty over any player taken in the last year's top 10 except Suh and Bradford).

You can play this stupid retrospective draft game with any team. The Jets should have traded up last year and picked a real blue chip player instead of Kyle Wilson. They really blew it- this would have better served them. Why didn't the Jets trade back and grab Mayo instead of Gholston? It is absolutely illogical that Mel Kiper (and apparently you) try to paint Clay Matthews as the ultimate draft blunder because he happened to be picked in a spot they traded out of- news flash: 24-25 other teams passed on him as well.

[lamont_jordan_rules]

... a rookie-wage scale will definitely help all teams with their first round picks ... especially teams with the top 5 selections ...

... cap-wise the pats will be in a position to use more of their selections next draft ... rather than their current trend of stocking them in the cupboard for the future ...

... agree, this info has been discussed since the lockout began ...











l_j_r

[patman]

Originally Posted by Dirtstar

no, you're simply not getting what i'm saying.

what i'm saying is that instead of continuously trading down in ALL rounds, not just mid-third as you stated above, they have blown a few opportunities to consolidate some of those picks and select "blue chip" prospects which would've probably helped them more than the plethora of mediocre talent they've grabbed in the middle rounds, a lot of which aren't even on the team anymore.

for example: Clay Matthews was available when the Pats* were on the clock in 2009. instead of grabbing a pass-rushing linebacker, which has been a need for NE for a while, they moved down (for the second time) by trading #26 and a fifth-rounder, and got a second-rounder and two thirds, one of which they then traded for a 2010 second.

yeah, they got great value in terms of picks and flexibility, and they used that 2010 second-rounder to grab Gronkowski. but at the end of the day, they probably would've been better served by drafting Clay Matthews.

And 25 teams before them would have been better served by drafting Clay Mathews. What if Mathews would have busted, would they have been better suited then?

They would have been better suited to take Jennings and not Chad Jackson also.

What if in two years Brady gets lost for the season again, how valuable is Mallet?

Gee, what it the jets drafted Mayo and not Gholston, they would have saved 8 mill in cap space (no Scott) and not be worried about keeping harris long term. playing what if is for fun, but not serious discussion.