Why I Disagre with the Occupy Movement - Jets Insider.com Forums

Warfish · 11-25-2011, 08:09 AM

[QUOTE=Occupy Spokestalker]"The idea is simple, hit the corporations that corrupt and control American politics where it hurts, their profits," the group's Facebook page reads, describing Black Friday as the "one day where the mega-corporations blatantly dictate our actions."
[/QUOTE]

The above quote is taken from their comments re: Black Friday.

And it exposes why I fundamentally disagree with them.

First, companies cannot vote, only people can. As such, WE are 100% responsible if we choose to vote in a way consistent with corporatocracy. Yes, donations from both companies and unions (and other groups) are influential, but WE do not hold our politicians to any standards about it, WE do not vote for third parties and WE keep electing the same (S) and (D) candidates over and over again. Thats on US, not on Best Buy.

Second, no corporation "blatantly dictates" my actions, or anyone elses actions. NO one is coming to your home today with a gun to hold to your head, to force you to go shopping, live beyond your means, or spend money. YOU may chaoose to, but thats on YOU, not on Best Buy for having a sale and trying to both fill a consumer desire and make a profit for it;s shareholders and employees. If you allow your actions to be "dictated" by others, thats on you.

It's exactly this kind of rampany abandonment of the idea of personal responsabillity that makes suppoting OWS impossible for me. In the broader sense, the entire movement is one of "not my fault, my whole life is controlled by companies and there is nothing I can do to stop them, so don't blame me!" It's a horrible and dishonest position, frankly, speaking more to the ignorance and laziness of the position holder than the truth.

We the people allow the powers that be to do what they do, and we could stop them...if we cared enough to do it, stoped playing two-party-only politics, and actully educated ourselves on the issues (regardless of the opinion you wind up with on the issue) and actively participated in the process.

Instead, we have what, a 30% voting participation, an almost totally uninformed and detached electorate, the same 99.000% domination by the same two party system we've always had......and people wonder why we never get any "change"? Why companies have such influence?

Perhaps one day the blame pointers will turn their fingers around, and point the blame where it belongs. On us. We have all the power in our system of Governance, but we'd have to care enough to use it, and then hold those we elect to it.

And I have no faith we the people will ever do that in modern America. When they write the Rise and Fall of the United States one day, a key cause will be ascribed to the loss of personal responsabillity throughout the society.

PlumberKhan · 11-25-2011, 08:59 AM

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group[/url]

Ask them what they talk about and why the public is not allowed in these meetings.

OCCH · 11-25-2011, 09:37 AM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4249915][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group[/url]

Ask them what they talk about and why the public is not allowed in these meetings.[/QUOTE]

LOL.

So these meetings are keeping the populace from having a voice? If these meetings didn't take place, less people would be sitting on the couch caring more about American Idol than American Politics?

It's no secret people of influence tend to have influence -- it's kinda where the title comes from. But there is NO WAY these guys are keeping me from having what I "want" if I'm not holding myself responsible for achieving those goals. Saying someone "owes me stuff" won't (and shouldn't) fly in a society based on capitalism (which I THINK we still are).

Do these people not have the right to meet? Are they doing anything outside of their Constitutional rights (the ones who are citizens)? Is there "nothing" we little folk can do about it? Again, we'll probably never know because most citizens don't want to "do" anything -- they just want to complain about their circumstances and place the blame on someone else, which is I think is the point of the thread . . .

quantum · 11-25-2011, 09:53 AM

[QUOTE=Warfish;4249878]The above quote is taken from their comments re: Black Friday.

And it exposes why I fundamentally disagree with them.

First, companies cannot vote, only people can. As such, WE are 100% responsible if we choose to vote in a way consistent with corporatocracy. Yes, donations from both companies and unions (and other groups) are influential, but WE do not hold our politicians to any standards about it, WE do not vote for third parties and WE keep electing the same (S) and (D) candidates over and over again. Thats on US, not on Best Buy.

Second, no corporation "blatantly dictates" my actions, or anyone elses actions. NO one is coming to your home today with a gun to hold to your head, to force you to go shopping, live beyond your means, or spend money. YOU may chaoose to, but thats on YOU, not on Best Buy for having a sale and trying to both fill a consumer desire and make a profit for it;s shareholders and employees. If you allow your actions to be "dictated" by others, thats on you.

It's exactly this kind of rampany abandonment of the idea of personal responsabillity that makes suppoting OWS impossible for me. In the broader sense, the entire movement is one of "not my fault, my whole life is controlled by companies and there is nothing I can do to stop them, so don't blame me!" It's a horrible and dishonest position, frankly, speaking more to the ignorance and laziness of the position holder than the truth.

We the people allow the powers that be to do what they do, and we could stop them...if we cared enough to do it, stoped playing two-party-only politics, and actully educated ourselves on the issues (regardless of the opinion you wind up with on the issue) and actively participated in the process.

Instead, we have what, a 30% voting participation, an almost totally uninformed and detached electorate, the same 99.000% domination by the same two party system we've always had......and people wonder why we never get any "change"? Why companies have such influence?

Perhaps one day the blame pointers will turn their fingers around, and point the blame where it belongs. On us. We have all the power in our system of Governance, but we'd have to care enough to use it, and then hold those we elect to it.

And I have no faith we the people will ever do that in modern America. When they write the Rise and Fall of the United States one day, a key cause will be ascribed to the loss of personal responsabillity throughout the society.[/QUOTE]

You missed one thing: it implies that politicians who are really, truly responsible are off the hook because its impossible to resist the bribes from corporations. Its not impossible.

Warfish · 11-25-2011, 10:38 AM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4249915][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group[/url]

Ask them what they talk about and why the public is not allowed in these meetings.[/QUOTE]

You mean this?

[QUOTE]Conspiracy theories

According to chairman Étienne Davignon, a major attraction of Bilderberg group meetings is that they provide an opportunity for participants to speak and debate candidly and to find out what major figures really think, without the risk of off-the-cuff comments becoming fodder for controversy in the media.[30]

However, partly because of its working methods to ensure strict privacy, the Bilderberg group is accused of conspiracies.[31][30][32][33][34] This outlook has been popular on both extremes of the political spectrum, even if they disagree on what the group wants to do.

[B][COLOR="Red"]Some on the left accuse the Bilderberg group of conspiring to impose capitalist domination,[35] while some on the right have accused the group of conspiring to impose a world government and planned economy
[/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]

So, maybe they talk about imposing capitalist communism?

I have to ask thou, is OWS protesting in front of the Hotel de Bilderberg?

JetPotato · 11-25-2011, 11:14 AM

"in every democracy, the people get the government they deserve"

Alex de Tocqueville

majormajor42 · 11-25-2011, 12:34 PM

Why does it take so much money to get elected anyway?

PlumberKhan · 11-25-2011, 02:43 PM

[QUOTE=OCCH;4249935]Do these people not have the right to meet?[/QUOTE]

Actually, no.

It's a violation of the Logan Act.

JetPotato · 11-25-2011, 03:16 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4249915][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group[/url]

Ask them what they talk about and why the public is not allowed in these meetings.[/QUOTE]

Big deal. What about the Mods Lounge?

JetPotato · 11-25-2011, 03:18 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4250146]Actually, no.

It's a violation of the Logan Act.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

What negotiations with foreign governments are private citizens taking place in on behalf of our government?

PlumberKhan · 11-25-2011, 03:24 PM

[QUOTE=JetPotato;4250170]:rolleyes:

What negotiations with foreign governments are private citizens taking place in on behalf of our government?[/QUOTE]

Ron Paul agrees that it's illegal. Take the issue up with him and his campaign :P

I read about it on his website a few years back when Rick Perry attended the meeting....

Oh. And read up about Texas proposed redistricting. It appears they want no more Paul after his presumed failed presidential campaign this year....

OCCH · 11-25-2011, 07:53 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4250146]Actually, no.

It's a violation of the Logan Act.[/QUOTE]

Actually, they DO have the right to meet -- the issue is the purpose they are meeting.

Accusations of conspiracy apparently don't meet the standard necessary for conviction;)

MnJetFan · 11-25-2011, 11:53 PM

First of all people are responsible for their own actions. Corporate America and the Big Banks get away with what the Government allows it to. Why doesn't the government enforce the rules? Maybe the Government is corrupt as the people they regulate. Just a thought. Democrats/Republicans both slaves to greed.

TerminatorJet · 11-26-2011, 12:06 PM

Both the occupy and tea party movements are full of radicalized wack jobs. Alot of stupid, stupid people with too much time on their hands.

FF2® · 11-26-2011, 12:17 PM

[QUOTE=TerminatorJet;4250722]Both the occupy and tea party movements are full of radicalized wack jobs. Alot of stupid, stupid people with too much time on their hands.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with both of these groups. But I have zero problems with either of them protesting.

TerminatorJet · 11-26-2011, 12:20 PM

[QUOTE=FF2®;4250733]I disagree with both of these groups. But I have zero problems with either of them protesting.[/QUOTE]

They can protest all they want but they look very stupid doing it. Both groups are full of double-digit IQ's.

PlumberKhan · 11-26-2011, 12:37 PM

[QUOTE=OCCH;4250311]Actually, they DO have the right to meet -- the issue is the purpose they are meeting.[/QUOTE]

But that's the thing...they refuse to acknowledge what they discuss and what the purpose is.

If it's so transparent, why did Perry refuse to answer a question regarding it from a Ron Paul supporter at a rally last weekend? Why does the governor of Texas, Joe Biden, the CEO of Pepsi and Bank of America, senor Chinese officials and several ranking members of European Parliament need to meet in secret in Istanbul Turkey?

I'm sure they're just talking about the weather and stuff, right?

Warfish · 11-26-2011, 02:06 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4250759]I'm sure they're just talking about the weather and stuff, right?[/QUOTE]

If you know so much, what ARE they discussing then PK?

JetPotato · 11-26-2011, 03:19 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4250759]But that's the thing...[B]they refuse to acknowledge what they discuss and what the purpose is[/B].

If it's so transparent, why did Perry refuse to answer a question regarding it from a Ron Paul supporter at a rally last weekend? Why does the governor of Texas, Joe Biden, the CEO of Pepsi and Bank of America, senor Chinese officials and several ranking members of European Parliament need to meet in secret in Istanbul Turkey?

I'm sure they're just talking about the weather and stuff, right?[/QUOTE]

Why should they?

JetPotato · 11-26-2011, 03:27 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4250892]Go.

Ask.

M*therf*cking.

Ron.

Paul.

Go ask him. Seriously. You know. Your buddy. The guy you argue with Warfish about. Go ask him. Ask. Don't as PK...ask RP.[/QUOTE]

Ron Paul isn't here b&tching and whining about these folks.

You are.

11-25-2011, 08:09 AM	#1
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	Why I Disagre with the Occupy Movement [QUOTE=Occupy Spokestalker]"The idea is simple, hit the corporations that corrupt and control American politics where it hurts, their profits," the group's Facebook page reads, describing Black Friday as the "one day where the mega-corporations blatantly dictate our actions." [/QUOTE] The above quote is taken from their comments re: Black Friday. And it exposes why I fundamentally disagree with them. First, companies cannot vote, only people can. As such, WE are 100% responsible if we choose to vote in a way consistent with corporatocracy. Yes, donations from both companies and unions (and other groups) are influential, but WE do not hold our politicians to any standards about it, WE do not vote for third parties and WE keep electing the same (S) and (D) candidates over and over again. Thats on US, not on Best Buy. Second, no corporation "blatantly dictates" my actions, or anyone elses actions. NO one is coming to your home today with a gun to hold to your head, to force you to go shopping, live beyond your means, or spend money. YOU may chaoose to, but thats on YOU, not on Best Buy for having a sale and trying to both fill a consumer desire and make a profit for it;s shareholders and employees. If you allow your actions to be "dictated" by others, thats on you. It's exactly this kind of rampany abandonment of the idea of personal responsabillity that makes suppoting OWS impossible for me. In the broader sense, the entire movement is one of "not my fault, my whole life is controlled by companies and there is nothing I can do to stop them, so don't blame me!" It's a horrible and dishonest position, frankly, speaking more to the ignorance and laziness of the position holder than the truth. We the people allow the powers that be to do what they do, and we could stop them...if we cared enough to do it, stoped playing two-party-only politics, and actully educated ourselves on the issues (regardless of the opinion you wind up with on the issue) and actively participated in the process. Instead, we have what, a 30% voting participation, an almost totally uninformed and detached electorate, the same 99.000% domination by the same two party system we've always had......and people wonder why we never get any "change"? Why companies have such influence? Perhaps one day the blame pointers will turn their fingers around, and point the blame where it belongs. On us. We have all the power in our system of Governance, but we'd have to care enough to use it, and then hold those we elect to it. And I have no faith we the people will ever do that in modern America. When they write the Rise and Fall of the United States one day, a key cause will be ascribed to the loss of personal responsabillity throughout the society.

11-25-2011, 03:24 PM	#11
PlumberKhan BRACE YOURSELVES FOR 12... Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,014	[QUOTE=JetPotato;4250170]:rolleyes: What negotiations with foreign governments are private citizens taking place in on behalf of our government?[/QUOTE] Ron Paul agrees that it's illegal. Take the issue up with him and his campaign :P I read about it on his website a few years back when Rick Perry attended the meeting.... Oh. And read up about Texas proposed redistricting. It appears they want no more Paul after his presumed failed presidential campaign this year.... Last edited by PlumberKhan; 11-25-2011 at 03:50 PM.

11-25-2011, 08:59 AM	#2
PlumberKhan BRACE YOURSELVES FOR 12... Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,014	[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group[/url] Ask them what they talk about and why the public is not allowed in these meetings.

11-25-2011, 09:37 AM	#3
OCCH glad I have more purpose in life than Jets football . . . Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,413	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4249915][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group[/url] Ask them what they talk about and why the public is not allowed in these meetings.[/QUOTE] LOL. So these meetings are keeping the populace from having a voice? If these meetings didn't take place, less people would be sitting on the couch caring more about American Idol than American Politics? It's no secret people of influence tend to have influence -- it's kinda where the title comes from. But there is NO WAY these guys are keeping me from having what I "want" if I'm not holding myself responsible for achieving those goals. Saying someone "owes me stuff" won't (and shouldn't) fly in a society based on capitalism (which I THINK we still are). Do these people not have the right to meet? Are they doing anything outside of their Constitutional rights (the ones who are citizens)? Is there "nothing" we little folk can do about it? Again, we'll probably never know because most citizens don't want to "do" anything -- they just want to complain about their circumstances and place the blame on someone else, which is I think is the point of the thread . . .

11-25-2011, 09:53 AM	#4
quantum GFY Snatchez! Hall Of Fame Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: LI Posts: 17,894	[QUOTE=Warfish;4249878]The above quote is taken from their comments re: Black Friday. And it exposes why I fundamentally disagree with them. First, companies cannot vote, only people can. As such, WE are 100% responsible if we choose to vote in a way consistent with corporatocracy. Yes, donations from both companies and unions (and other groups) are influential, but WE do not hold our politicians to any standards about it, WE do not vote for third parties and WE keep electing the same (S) and (D) candidates over and over again. Thats on US, not on Best Buy. Second, no corporation "blatantly dictates" my actions, or anyone elses actions. NO one is coming to your home today with a gun to hold to your head, to force you to go shopping, live beyond your means, or spend money. YOU may chaoose to, but thats on YOU, not on Best Buy for having a sale and trying to both fill a consumer desire and make a profit for it;s shareholders and employees. If you allow your actions to be "dictated" by others, thats on you. It's exactly this kind of rampany abandonment of the idea of personal responsabillity that makes suppoting OWS impossible for me. In the broader sense, the entire movement is one of "not my fault, my whole life is controlled by companies and there is nothing I can do to stop them, so don't blame me!" It's a horrible and dishonest position, frankly, speaking more to the ignorance and laziness of the position holder than the truth. We the people allow the powers that be to do what they do, and we could stop them...if we cared enough to do it, stoped playing two-party-only politics, and actully educated ourselves on the issues (regardless of the opinion you wind up with on the issue) and actively participated in the process. Instead, we have what, a 30% voting participation, an almost totally uninformed and detached electorate, the same 99.000% domination by the same two party system we've always had......and people wonder why we never get any "change"? Why companies have such influence? Perhaps one day the blame pointers will turn their fingers around, and point the blame where it belongs. On us. We have all the power in our system of Governance, but we'd have to care enough to use it, and then hold those we elect to it. And I have no faith we the people will ever do that in modern America. When they write the Rise and Fall of the United States one day, a key cause will be ascribed to the loss of personal responsabillity throughout the society.[/QUOTE] You missed one thing: it implies that politicians who are really, truly responsible are off the hook because its impossible to resist the bribes from corporations. Its not impossible.

11-25-2011, 10:38 AM	#5
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4249915][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group[/url] Ask them what they talk about and why the public is not allowed in these meetings.[/QUOTE] You mean this? [QUOTE]Conspiracy theories According to chairman Étienne Davignon, a major attraction of Bilderberg group meetings is that they provide an opportunity for participants to speak and debate candidly and to find out what major figures really think, without the risk of off-the-cuff comments becoming fodder for controversy in the media.[30] However, partly because of its working methods to ensure strict privacy, the Bilderberg group is accused of conspiracies.[31][30][32][33][34] This outlook has been popular on both extremes of the political spectrum, even if they disagree on what the group wants to do. [B][COLOR="Red"]Some on the left accuse the Bilderberg group of conspiring to impose capitalist domination,[35] while some on the right have accused the group of conspiring to impose a world government and planned economy [/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE] So, maybe they talk about imposing capitalist communism? I have to ask thou, is OWS protesting in front of the Hotel de Bilderberg?

11-25-2011, 11:14 AM	#6
JetPotato fermenting Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 12,141	"in every democracy, the people get the government they deserve" Alex de Tocqueville

11-25-2011, 12:34 PM	#7
majormajor42 Practice Squad Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Rockland County Posts: 399	Why does it take so much money to get elected anyway?

11-25-2011, 02:43 PM	#8
PlumberKhan BRACE YOURSELVES FOR 12... Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,014	[QUOTE=OCCH;4249935]Do these people not have the right to meet?[/QUOTE] Actually, no. It's a violation of the Logan Act.

11-25-2011, 03:16 PM	#9
JetPotato fermenting Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 12,141	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4249915][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group[/url] Ask them what they talk about and why the public is not allowed in these meetings.[/QUOTE] Big deal. What about the Mods Lounge?

11-25-2011, 03:18 PM	#10
JetPotato fermenting Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 12,141	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4250146]Actually, no. It's a violation of the Logan Act.[/QUOTE] :rolleyes: What negotiations with foreign governments are private citizens taking place in on behalf of our government?

11-25-2011, 07:53 PM	#12
OCCH glad I have more purpose in life than Jets football . . . Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,413	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4250146]Actually, no. It's a violation of the Logan Act.[/QUOTE] Actually, they DO have the right to meet -- the issue is the purpose they are meeting. Accusations of conspiracy apparently don't meet the standard necessary for conviction;)

11-25-2011, 11:53 PM	#13
MnJetFan All League Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,302	First of all people are responsible for their own actions. Corporate America and the Big Banks get away with what the Government allows it to. Why doesn't the government enforce the rules? Maybe the Government is corrupt as the people they regulate. Just a thought. Democrats/Republicans both slaves to greed.

11-26-2011, 12:06 PM	#14
TerminatorJet is making lotsa $$ off Schotty's stupidity! Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,348	Both the occupy and tea party movements are full of radicalized wack jobs. Alot of stupid, stupid people with too much time on their hands.

11-26-2011, 12:17 PM	#15
FF2® Believes Sloppy Guy was involved JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 46,192	[QUOTE=TerminatorJet;4250722]Both the occupy and tea party movements are full of radicalized wack jobs. Alot of stupid, stupid people with too much time on their hands.[/QUOTE] I disagree with both of these groups. But I have zero problems with either of them protesting.

11-26-2011, 12:20 PM	#16
TerminatorJet is making lotsa $$ off Schotty's stupidity! Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,348	[QUOTE=FF2®;4250733]I disagree with both of these groups. But I have zero problems with either of them protesting.[/QUOTE] They can protest all they want but they look very stupid doing it. Both groups are full of double-digit IQ's.

11-26-2011, 12:37 PM	#17
PlumberKhan BRACE YOURSELVES FOR 12... Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,014	[QUOTE=OCCH;4250311]Actually, they DO have the right to meet -- the issue is the purpose they are meeting.[/QUOTE] But that's the thing...they refuse to acknowledge what they discuss and what the purpose is. If it's so transparent, why did Perry refuse to answer a question regarding it from a Ron Paul supporter at a rally last weekend? Why does the governor of Texas, Joe Biden, the CEO of Pepsi and Bank of America, senor Chinese officials and several ranking members of European Parliament need to meet in secret in Istanbul Turkey? I'm sure they're just talking about the weather and stuff, right?

11-26-2011, 02:06 PM	#18
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4250759]I'm sure they're just talking about the weather and stuff, right?[/QUOTE] If you know so much, what ARE they discussing then PK?

11-26-2011, 03:19 PM	#19
JetPotato fermenting Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 12,141	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4250759]But that's the thing...[B]they refuse to acknowledge what they discuss and what the purpose is[/B]. If it's so transparent, why did Perry refuse to answer a question regarding it from a Ron Paul supporter at a rally last weekend? Why does the governor of Texas, Joe Biden, the CEO of Pepsi and Bank of America, senor Chinese officials and several ranking members of European Parliament need to meet in secret in Istanbul Turkey? I'm sure they're just talking about the weather and stuff, right?[/QUOTE] Why should they?

11-26-2011, 03:27 PM	#20
JetPotato fermenting Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 12,141	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4250892]Go. Ask. Mtherfcking. Ron. Paul. Go ask him. Seriously. You know. Your buddy. The guy you argue with Warfish about. Go ask him. Ask. Don't as PK...ask RP.[/QUOTE] Ron Paul isn't here b&tching and whining about these folks. You are.