Rep. Barney Frank won't seek re-election - Page 2 - Jets Insider.com Forums

JetPotato · 11-28-2011, 03:50 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti;4255607]alot of the "doing nothing" is party-level. You can nominate Popeye the Sailor man to the GOP congressman's seat he's not going to break with his party to pass a bill.

also I think people underrate how hard it is to be a politician. Like you can just take a CEO from some company and he'd be just as good. There are certain skills involved in being a politician and it's not the same as the world of business. or that a guy with 3 decades of gov't experience is just as good at being a congressman as joe blow off the street. that's tea party thinking and it's already proven to be a failure (Sharon Angle, Christine OConnell, this walsh dude who yells at his constituents)

here's another question if there are term limits, who is the speaker of the house? or runs the committees? Term limits destroys the idea of seniority.[/QUOTE]

Have you ever held elected office? I have. It's an easy job once you're in if you have half a brain and an ability to speak in complete sentences. You've overestimated the job, based on nothing other than the nonsensical mountains that many politicians have made of that mole hill. Again, their job is not to be [I]politicians[/I], it is to be [I]representatives[/I] of the people.

Their job is to read and understand bills, then vote on them. And occassionally propose their own. That's it. It isn't how to deal with lobbyists, how to broker deals or how to get re-elected. That's just what some make it out to be.

Warfish · 11-28-2011, 03:53 PM

[QUOTE=JetPotato;4255633]Their job is to read and understand bills, then vote on them.[/quote]

Whoa, whoa, WHOA good buddy.

"Read"?

Come on now, thats asking ALOT right off the top.

Don't even start on "understand", thats why they have a staff and endless meetings and lunches with lobbyists, so they can be told their opinions on these issues.

Far more efficient (and lucrative) than this crazy "read and understand" idea you seem to have.

Silly tater.

JetPotato · 11-28-2011, 03:57 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;4255639]Whoa, whoa, WHOA good buddy.

"Read"?

Come on now, thats asking ALOT right off the top.

Don't even start on "understand", thats why they have a staff and endless meetings and lunches with lobbyists, so they can be told their opinions on these issues.

Far more efficient (and lucrative) than this crazy "read and understand" idea you seem to have.

Silly tater.[/QUOTE]

Yeah - apparently you can get as high up as Speaker of the House thinking that you need to "pass a bill so we can find out what is in it".

Like I quote often though - "people get the democracy they deserve". Can't really expect our representatives to understand legislation when the people that voted them there don't either.

doggin94it · 11-28-2011, 04:10 PM

[QUOTE=JetPotato;4255229]How do you determine that except for elections? So if an incumbent come up against his term limit and only gets 62% of the vote, does the runner up get the job? Would drastically change the candidate field that year too, no?[/QUOTE]

No - you determine it by the prior election. Say the term limit is 3 terms and you've served two, and are running for your third. If you get more than 65% of the vote, you can run for number 4 after term 3 expires (and so on, for each election you can garner 65%+ of the vote). If not, then your third term is your final term, and you can't run for number 4.

Warfish · 11-28-2011, 04:10 PM

[QUOTE=JetPotato;4255647]Yeah - apparently you can get as high up as Speaker of the House thinking that you need to "pass a bill so we can find out what is in it".

Like I quote often though - "people get the democracy they deserve". Can't really expect our representatives to understand legislation when the people that voted them there don't either.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Of course, the system is designed to foster exactly that.

"Don't you worry little Citizen, let US take care of it. It's far too complicated and nuanced for you."

bitonti · 11-28-2011, 04:25 PM

[QUOTE=JetPotato;4255633]
Their job is to read and understand bills, then vote on them. [b]And occassionally propose their own.[/b] That's it. [/QUOTE]

how many bills from freshman congressmen get proposed/passed?

it's not something you do on day 1 in Washington DC.

and if there's an endless revolving door it might get even less functional.

doggin94it · 11-28-2011, 04:34 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;4255239]An idea designed specificly to re-elected gerimandered district perma-politicians?

And I have to ask.....65% of the electorate, or 65% of actual voters? Thats a big difference.[/QUOTE]

65% of actual voters. Non-voters deserve the representation they get.

And even in gerrymandered districts, there is usually better than 35% of the opposing party. Check out the House District map from 2010: most election wins are with a lot less than 65% of the electorate.

Districts with more:
Alaska,
22 districts in Texas (guess which party won those :D),
1 district in OK,
3 in Arizona,
23 in Cali (again, guess which party :D)
2 in Oregon
2 in Washington
1 in Idaho
2 in Utah
Wyoming
3 in Colorado
2 in Nebraska
1 in Kansas
1 in Minnesota
2 in Iowa
5 in Missouri
1 in Arkansas
3 in Louisiana
1 in Mississippi
3 in Wisconsin
5 in Michigan
10 in Illinois
4 in Kentucky
2 in Indiana
5 in Tennessee
2 in Alabama
13 in Florida
7 in Georgia
6 in Ohio
1 in West Virginia
2 in Virginia
1 in South Carolina
5 in North Carolina
3 in Maryland
6 in NJ
7 in Pennsylvania
14 in NY
1 in Connecticut
2 in Massachusetts
1 in Hawaii

That's 177 out of 435 - less than half (though still more than I expected). Bump the number to 70% and that drops more.

The point is, there are ways to allow voters to keep the really good ones who've built broad satisfaction from the people they represent while term limiting the ones who don't

FF2® · 11-28-2011, 05:08 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;4255017]32 Years in Office.

Term Limits anyone?[/QUOTE]

No.

Shouldn't Americans decide who they want to represent them? :huh:

Apparently the folks in Frank's district liked the job he did representing them.

southparkcpa · 11-28-2011, 05:38 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti;4255717]how many bills from freshman congressmen get proposed/passed?

it's not something you do on day 1 in Washington DC.

and if there's an endless revolving door it might get even less functional.[/QUOTE]

less functional than now? You should defend Penn State. You defend policy based on intent when the results are near criminal.

neevsmazda07 · 11-28-2011, 06:07 PM

[QUOTE=Trades;4255509]Talk about being careful for what you ask for...[/QUOTE]

maxine waters??? greeeeat... :angry:

JetPotato · 11-28-2011, 07:20 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti;4255717]how many bills from freshman congressmen get proposed/passed?

it's not something you do on day 1 in Washington DC.

and if there's an endless revolving door it might get even less functional.[/QUOTE]

This is a complete logic breakdown on all levels. I can't even begin.

Warfish · 11-28-2011, 10:59 PM

[QUOTE=FF2®;4255817]No.

Shouldn't Americans decide who they want to represent them? :huh:[/QUOTE]

Feel the same way abou the Presidency?

You leading the charge to change the Constitution to fix that?

Funny looking District he had, eh?

[IMG]http://www.govtrack.us/media/districts/MA4.gif[/IMG]

southparkcpa · 11-29-2011, 06:09 AM

[QUOTE=Warfish;4256193]Feel the same way abou the Presidency?

You leading the charge to change the Constitution to fix that?

Funny looking District he had, eh?

[IMG]http://www.govtrack.us/media/districts/MA4.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Agreed. Works at the highest level but not for congress? 12 years MAX is plenty.

11-28-2011, 05:08 PM	#28
FF2® Believes Sloppy Guy was involved JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 46,168	[QUOTE=Warfish;4255017]32 Years in Office. Term Limits anyone?[/QUOTE] No. Shouldn't Americans decide who they want to represent them? :huh: Apparently the folks in Frank's district liked the job he did representing them. Last edited by FF2®; 11-28-2011 at 05:10 PM.

11-28-2011, 10:59 PM	#32
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=FF2®;4255817]No. Shouldn't Americans decide who they want to represent them? :huh:[/QUOTE] Feel the same way abou the Presidency? You leading the charge to change the Constitution to fix that? Funny looking District he had, eh? [IMG]http://www.govtrack.us/media/districts/MA4.gif[/IMG] Last edited by Warfish; 11-28-2011 at 11:01 PM.

11-28-2011, 03:50 PM	#21
JetPotato fermenting Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 12,134	[QUOTE=bitonti;4255607]alot of the "doing nothing" is party-level. You can nominate Popeye the Sailor man to the GOP congressman's seat he's not going to break with his party to pass a bill. also I think people underrate how hard it is to be a politician. Like you can just take a CEO from some company and he'd be just as good. There are certain skills involved in being a politician and it's not the same as the world of business. or that a guy with 3 decades of gov't experience is just as good at being a congressman as joe blow off the street. that's tea party thinking and it's already proven to be a failure (Sharon Angle, Christine OConnell, this walsh dude who yells at his constituents) here's another question if there are term limits, who is the speaker of the house? or runs the committees? Term limits destroys the idea of seniority.[/QUOTE] Have you ever held elected office? I have. It's an easy job once you're in if you have half a brain and an ability to speak in complete sentences. You've overestimated the job, based on nothing other than the nonsensical mountains that many politicians have made of that mole hill. Again, their job is not to be [I]politicians[/I], it is to be [I]representatives[/I] of the people. Their job is to read and understand bills, then vote on them. And occassionally propose their own. That's it. It isn't how to deal with lobbyists, how to broker deals or how to get re-elected. That's just what some make it out to be.

11-28-2011, 03:53 PM	#22
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=JetPotato;4255633]Their job is to read and understand bills, then vote on them.[/quote] Whoa, whoa, WHOA good buddy. "Read"? Come on now, thats asking ALOT right off the top. Don't even start on "understand", thats why they have a staff and endless meetings and lunches with lobbyists, so they can be told their opinions on these issues. Far more efficient (and lucrative) than this crazy "read and understand" idea you seem to have. Silly tater.

11-28-2011, 03:57 PM	#23
JetPotato fermenting Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 12,134	[QUOTE=Warfish;4255639]Whoa, whoa, WHOA good buddy. "Read"? Come on now, thats asking ALOT right off the top. Don't even start on "understand", thats why they have a staff and endless meetings and lunches with lobbyists, so they can be told their opinions on these issues. Far more efficient (and lucrative) than this crazy "read and understand" idea you seem to have. Silly tater.[/QUOTE] Yeah - apparently you can get as high up as Speaker of the House thinking that you need to "pass a bill so we can find out what is in it". Like I quote often though - "people get the democracy they deserve". Can't really expect our representatives to understand legislation when the people that voted them there don't either.

11-28-2011, 04:10 PM	#24
doggin94it Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,413	[QUOTE=JetPotato;4255229]How do you determine that except for elections? So if an incumbent come up against his term limit and only gets 62% of the vote, does the runner up get the job? Would drastically change the candidate field that year too, no?[/QUOTE] No - you determine it by the prior election. Say the term limit is 3 terms and you've served two, and are running for your third. If you get more than 65% of the vote, you can run for number 4 after term 3 expires (and so on, for each election you can garner 65%+ of the vote). If not, then your third term is your final term, and you can't run for number 4.

11-28-2011, 04:25 PM	#26
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=JetPotato;4255633] Their job is to read and understand bills, then vote on them. [b]And occassionally propose their own.[/b] That's it. [/QUOTE] how many bills from freshman congressmen get proposed/passed? it's not something you do on day 1 in Washington DC. and if there's an endless revolving door it might get even less functional.

11-28-2011, 04:34 PM	#27
doggin94it Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,413	[QUOTE=Warfish;4255239]An idea designed specificly to re-elected gerimandered district perma-politicians? And I have to ask.....65% of the electorate, or 65% of actual voters? Thats a big difference.[/QUOTE] 65% of actual voters. Non-voters deserve the representation they get. And even in gerrymandered districts, there is usually better than 35% of the opposing party. Check out the House District map from 2010: most election wins are with a lot less than 65% of the electorate. Districts with more: Alaska, 22 districts in Texas (guess which party won those :D), 1 district in OK, 3 in Arizona, 23 in Cali (again, guess which party :D) 2 in Oregon 2 in Washington 1 in Idaho 2 in Utah Wyoming 3 in Colorado 2 in Nebraska 1 in Kansas 1 in Minnesota 2 in Iowa 5 in Missouri 1 in Arkansas 3 in Louisiana 1 in Mississippi 3 in Wisconsin 5 in Michigan 10 in Illinois 4 in Kentucky 2 in Indiana 5 in Tennessee 2 in Alabama 13 in Florida 7 in Georgia 6 in Ohio 1 in West Virginia 2 in Virginia 1 in South Carolina 5 in North Carolina 3 in Maryland 6 in NJ 7 in Pennsylvania 14 in NY 1 in Connecticut 2 in Massachusetts 1 in Hawaii That's 177 out of 435 - less than half (though still more than I expected). Bump the number to 70% and that drops more. The point is, there are ways to allow voters to keep the really good ones who've built broad satisfaction from the people they represent while term limiting the ones who don't

11-28-2011, 05:38 PM	#29
southparkcpa I see the 88 to 97 period all over again. Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 15,726	[QUOTE=bitonti;4255717]how many bills from freshman congressmen get proposed/passed? it's not something you do on day 1 in Washington DC. and if there's an endless revolving door it might get even less functional.[/QUOTE] less functional than now? You should defend Penn State. You defend policy based on intent when the results are near criminal.

11-28-2011, 06:07 PM	#30
neevsmazda07 jetsinsider.... pug approved!!! All League Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: cape coral fl. Posts: 2,601	[QUOTE=Trades;4255509]Talk about being careful for what you ask for...[/QUOTE] maxine waters??? greeeeat... :angry:

11-28-2011, 07:20 PM	#31
JetPotato fermenting Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 12,134	[QUOTE=bitonti;4255717]how many bills from freshman congressmen get proposed/passed? it's not something you do on day 1 in Washington DC. and if there's an endless revolving door it might get even less functional.[/QUOTE] This is a complete logic breakdown on all levels. I can't even begin.

11-29-2011, 06:09 AM	#33
southparkcpa I see the 88 to 97 period all over again. Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 15,726	[QUOTE=Warfish;4256193]Feel the same way abou the Presidency? You leading the charge to change the Constitution to fix that? Funny looking District he had, eh? [IMG]http://www.govtrack.us/media/districts/MA4.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE] Agreed. Works at the highest level but not for congress? 12 years MAX is plenty.