Rich People DON'T Create Jobs: 6 Myths That Have to Be Killed for Our Economy to Live - Page 3 - Jets Insider.com Forums

SONNY WERBLIN · 12-14-2011, 01:12 PM

[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4276574]Question for the OP. If rich people don't create jobs who does? Simple question really. I'm just wondering.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure it's this guy.

[IMG]http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PSO1213.jpg[/IMG]

SONNY WERBLIN · 12-14-2011, 01:15 PM

[QUOTE=Trades;4276582]Before I got divorced my ex would put the heat on 73 and the A/C on 68 and I could never figure out why 73 was comfortable in the winter but 68 was in the summer.[/QUOTE]

F*ck yeah! I hate that! My thermostat is 69 in the winter and 75 in the summer.

parafly · 12-14-2011, 01:20 PM

[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4276574]Question for the OP. If rich people don't create jobs who does? Simple question really. I'm just wondering.[/QUOTE]

Jobs are created by the government and the wealthy, but in my opinion, this question puts the focus on the wrong issue. The key is not who creates jobs, it's what drives job creation.

The answer is consumers.

Trades · 12-14-2011, 01:22 PM

[QUOTE=parafly;4276628]Jobs are created by the government and the wealthy, but in my opinion, this question puts the focus on the wrong issue. The key is not who creates jobs, it's what drives job creation.

The answer is consumers.[/QUOTE]

No private jobs are created by the government. Government has the ability to make it easier or harder for jobs to be created by businesses.

parafly · 12-14-2011, 01:26 PM

[QUOTE=Trades;4276634]No private jobs are created by the government.[/QUOTE]

Disagreed. Large numbers of private jobs are created through military actions, governments policies, regulations, and mandates.

[QUOTE]Government has the ability to make it easier or harder for jobs to be created by businesses.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, but a much more powerful driving force is consumption level and demand.

Warfish · 12-14-2011, 01:39 PM

[QUOTE=parafly;4276628]The answer is consumers.[/QUOTE]

So to spur Job Growth, you would say the clear answer is to grow consumers first?

How do we do that, would you say?;)

SONNY WERBLIN · 12-14-2011, 01:39 PM

[QUOTE=parafly;4276628]Jobs are created by the government and the wealthy, but in my opinion, this question puts the focus on the wrong issue. The key is not who creates jobs, it's what drives job creation.

The answer is consumers.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Consumers who have jobs. It's a chicken/egg thing.

WestCoastOffensive · 12-14-2011, 01:41 PM

[QUOTE=JetPotato;4276552]Cool/cold are nothing. There are no such things in the physical world. Only a lack of heat.[/QUOTE]
lol, you live in the same zero-sum world as my wife.

Trades · 12-14-2011, 01:42 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;4276661]So to spur Job Growth, you would say the clear answer is to grow consumers first?

How do we do that, would you say?;)[/QUOTE]

I think the best thing to do is start a government program to advertise products and then mandate that we all have to buy the product.

We can start with health insurance.

chiefst2000 · 12-14-2011, 01:45 PM

[QUOTE=parafly;4276628]Jobs are created by the government and the wealthy, but in my opinion, this question puts the focus on the wrong issue. The key is not who creates jobs, it's what drives job creation.

The answer is consumers.[/QUOTE]
Interesting take. Technically you are correct that Government can create jobs but aren't they taking money directly out of the consumers hands to do so? If what you say is correct then you agree that the Wealthy are least a small component of job creation. Would adding a new tax surcharge on those folks during a tepid recovery be wise?

Going back to the consumer, lets look at what the average consumers major expenses look like. Taxes, Healthcare cost, energy costs, and morgage/rent expense are the top expenses for the average family or consumer. Logic dictates that reducing one or more of those expenses would leave more money in their pocket to consume with correct? Logic then dictates that to promote job growth and economic growth the government should be looking for ways to leave more money in consumers pockets.

Now lets look at Obama's signature achievement:

Healthcare Reform - Average Cost for a family plan is up over 30% since legislation was passed and continues to rise. Add in the new payroll tax scheduled to kick in right after the election (how convenient) and it appears that government passed a law that will take a lot of money out of consumers hands.

How does this help consumers or the economy?

Warfish · 12-14-2011, 01:50 PM

[QUOTE=Trades;4276669]I think the best thing to do is start a government program to advertise products and then mandate that we all have to buy the product.

We can start with health insurance.[/QUOTE]

I believe the standard Progressive economic answer is:

Take form the wealthy, give to the poor.
The poor then become consumers.
More comsumers spurs job growth.
More money is then made by business owners (the wealthy).

Then the cycle feeds itself, i.e. more money made by the wealthy, which can then be taken by the State to give to the poor, who become better consumers, thus spurring more job growth, thus providing more money to the wealthy, etc, etc, etc.

parafly · 12-14-2011, 01:51 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;4276661]So to spur Job Growth, you would say the clear answer is to grow consumers first?

How do we do that, would you say?;)[/QUOTE]

The best strategy is to increase consumer purchasing power. Limit inflation, limit excessive taxing, and put policies in place to incentivize domestic job creation and wage increases.

parafly · 12-14-2011, 01:54 PM

[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4276673]Logic then dictates that to promote job growth and economic growth the government should be looking for ways to leave more money in consumers pockets.[/QUOTE]

Yes, an important piece of the puzzle.

[QUOTE]Healthcare Reform - Average Cost for a family plan is up over 30% since legislation was passed and continues to rise. Add in the new payroll tax scheduled to kick in right after the election (how convenient) and it appears that government passed a law that will take a lot of money out of consumers hands.

How does this help consumers or the economy?[/QUOTE]

Short answer - it doesn't.

JetPotato · 12-14-2011, 02:14 PM

[QUOTE=Trades;4276582]Before I got divorced my ex would put the heat on 73 and the A/C on 68 and I could never figure out why 73 was comfortable in the winter but 68 was in the summer.[/QUOTE]

Humidity

JetPotato · 12-14-2011, 02:18 PM

[QUOTE=WestCoastOffensive;4276668]lol, you live in the same zero-sum world as my wife.[/QUOTE]

No, it's science ;)

chiefst2000 · 12-14-2011, 02:53 PM

[QUOTE=parafly;4276691]Yes, an important piece of the puzzle.

Short answer - it doesn't.[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I am wrong but I had you pegged as a left of center type that voted for Obama. How do you reconcile that vote with the policies and legislation currently being pursued by the administration. More taxes, more government spending, less money in the hands of the consumer etc?

parafly · 12-14-2011, 06:51 PM

[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4276792]Correct me if I am wrong but I had you pegged as a left of center type that voted for Obama. How do you reconcile that vote with the policies and legislation currently being pursued by the administration. More taxes, more government spending, less money in the hands of the consumer etc?[/QUOTE]

I would categorize myself as socially liberal and fiscally moderate. I voted for Obama, but generally feel he's been a failure.

You are wrong about "more taxes." Taxes have decreased under Obama.

chiefst2000 · 12-15-2011, 09:57 AM

[QUOTE=parafly;4277170]I would categorize myself as socially liberal and fiscally moderate. I voted for Obama, but generally feel he's been a failure.

You are wrong about "more taxes." Taxes have decreased under Obama.[/QUOTE]

Well it depends how you look at it. The Obamacare legislation carries a new payroll tax on all Americans that kicks in in 2013. That is a tax hike we it just hasn't kicked in yet. I consider the raise in my healthcare premiums due to that legislation a tax hike as well. Now he did implement some temporary stimulus via a payroll tax cut but his current proposal includes a new tax on the wealthy. So it's intellectually dishonest to say taxes have gone down. The stimulus is temporary but the Obamacare tax as well as the millionaire tax are would be permanent.

I also consider deficits to be a form of future taxes. Obamas unwillingness to reign in spending represents a future tax that will need to be covered.

12-14-2011, 01:50 PM	#51
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=Trades;4276669]I think the best thing to do is start a government program to advertise products and then mandate that we all have to buy the product. We can start with health insurance.[/QUOTE] I believe the standard Progressive economic answer is: Take form the wealthy, give to the poor. The poor then become consumers. More comsumers spurs job growth. More money is then made by business owners (the wealthy). Then the cycle feeds itself, i.e. more money made by the wealthy, which can then be taken by the State to give to the poor, who become better consumers, thus spurring more job growth, thus providing more money to the wealthy, etc, etc, etc. Last edited by Warfish; 12-14-2011 at 01:53 PM.

12-14-2011, 01:12 PM	#41
SONNY WERBLIN Veteran Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,359	[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4276574]Question for the OP. If rich people don't create jobs who does? Simple question really. I'm just wondering.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure it's this guy. [IMG]http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PSO1213.jpg[/IMG]

12-14-2011, 01:15 PM	#42
SONNY WERBLIN Veteran Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,359	[QUOTE=Trades;4276582]Before I got divorced my ex would put the heat on 73 and the A/C on 68 and I could never figure out why 73 was comfortable in the winter but 68 was in the summer.[/QUOTE] F*ck yeah! I hate that! My thermostat is 69 in the winter and 75 in the summer.

12-14-2011, 01:20 PM	#43
parafly so why side with anything? All Pro Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,296	[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4276574]Question for the OP. If rich people don't create jobs who does? Simple question really. I'm just wondering.[/QUOTE] Jobs are created by the government and the wealthy, but in my opinion, this question puts the focus on the wrong issue. The key is not who creates jobs, it's what drives job creation. The answer is consumers.

12-14-2011, 01:22 PM	#44
Trades Jets Insider VIP Join Date: May 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,556	[QUOTE=parafly;4276628]Jobs are created by the government and the wealthy, but in my opinion, this question puts the focus on the wrong issue. The key is not who creates jobs, it's what drives job creation. The answer is consumers.[/QUOTE] No private jobs are created by the government. Government has the ability to make it easier or harder for jobs to be created by businesses.

12-14-2011, 01:26 PM	#45
parafly so why side with anything? All Pro Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,296	[QUOTE=Trades;4276634]No private jobs are created by the government.[/QUOTE] Disagreed. Large numbers of private jobs are created through military actions, governments policies, regulations, and mandates. [QUOTE]Government has the ability to make it easier or harder for jobs to be created by businesses.[/QUOTE] Agreed, but a much more powerful driving force is consumption level and demand.

12-14-2011, 01:39 PM	#46
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=parafly;4276628]The answer is consumers.[/QUOTE] So to spur Job Growth, you would say the clear answer is to grow consumers first? How do we do that, would you say?;)

12-14-2011, 01:41 PM	#48
WestCoastOffensive Lying to the Smithsonian Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: SF via Strong Island Posts: 26,662	[QUOTE=JetPotato;4276552]Cool/cold are nothing. There are no such things in the physical world. Only a lack of heat.[/QUOTE] lol, you live in the same zero-sum world as my wife.

12-14-2011, 01:42 PM	#49
Trades Jets Insider VIP Join Date: May 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,556	[QUOTE=Warfish;4276661]So to spur Job Growth, you would say the clear answer is to grow consumers first? How do we do that, would you say?;)[/QUOTE] I think the best thing to do is start a government program to advertise products and then mandate that we all have to buy the product. We can start with health insurance.

12-14-2011, 01:45 PM	#50
chiefst2000 Champion of Common Sense All Pro Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5,834	[QUOTE=parafly;4276628]Jobs are created by the government and the wealthy, but in my opinion, this question puts the focus on the wrong issue. The key is not who creates jobs, it's what drives job creation. The answer is consumers.[/QUOTE] Interesting take. Technically you are correct that Government can create jobs but aren't they taking money directly out of the consumers hands to do so? If what you say is correct then you agree that the Wealthy are least a small component of job creation. Would adding a new tax surcharge on those folks during a tepid recovery be wise? Going back to the consumer, lets look at what the average consumers major expenses look like. Taxes, Healthcare cost, energy costs, and morgage/rent expense are the top expenses for the average family or consumer. Logic dictates that reducing one or more of those expenses would leave more money in their pocket to consume with correct? Logic then dictates that to promote job growth and economic growth the government should be looking for ways to leave more money in consumers pockets. Now lets look at Obama's signature achievement: Healthcare Reform - Average Cost for a family plan is up over 30% since legislation was passed and continues to rise. Add in the new payroll tax scheduled to kick in right after the election (how convenient) and it appears that government passed a law that will take a lot of money out of consumers hands. How does this help consumers or the economy?

12-14-2011, 01:51 PM	#52
parafly so why side with anything? All Pro Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,296	[QUOTE=Warfish;4276661]So to spur Job Growth, you would say the clear answer is to grow consumers first? How do we do that, would you say?;)[/QUOTE] The best strategy is to increase consumer purchasing power. Limit inflation, limit excessive taxing, and put policies in place to incentivize domestic job creation and wage increases.

12-14-2011, 01:54 PM	#53
parafly so why side with anything? All Pro Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,296	[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4276673]Logic then dictates that to promote job growth and economic growth the government should be looking for ways to leave more money in consumers pockets.[/QUOTE] Yes, an important piece of the puzzle. [QUOTE]Healthcare Reform - Average Cost for a family plan is up over 30% since legislation was passed and continues to rise. Add in the new payroll tax scheduled to kick in right after the election (how convenient) and it appears that government passed a law that will take a lot of money out of consumers hands. How does this help consumers or the economy?[/QUOTE] Short answer - it doesn't.

12-14-2011, 02:14 PM	#54
JetPotato fermenting Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 12,141	[QUOTE=Trades;4276582]Before I got divorced my ex would put the heat on 73 and the A/C on 68 and I could never figure out why 73 was comfortable in the winter but 68 was in the summer.[/QUOTE] Humidity

12-14-2011, 02:18 PM	#55
JetPotato fermenting Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York, NY Posts: 12,141	[QUOTE=WestCoastOffensive;4276668]lol, you live in the same zero-sum world as my wife.[/QUOTE] No, it's science ;)

12-14-2011, 02:53 PM	#56
chiefst2000 Champion of Common Sense All Pro Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5,834	[QUOTE=parafly;4276691]Yes, an important piece of the puzzle. Short answer - it doesn't.[/QUOTE] Correct me if I am wrong but I had you pegged as a left of center type that voted for Obama. How do you reconcile that vote with the policies and legislation currently being pursued by the administration. More taxes, more government spending, less money in the hands of the consumer etc?

12-14-2011, 06:51 PM	#57
parafly so why side with anything? All Pro Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,296	[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4276792]Correct me if I am wrong but I had you pegged as a left of center type that voted for Obama. How do you reconcile that vote with the policies and legislation currently being pursued by the administration. More taxes, more government spending, less money in the hands of the consumer etc?[/QUOTE] I would categorize myself as socially liberal and fiscally moderate. I voted for Obama, but generally feel he's been a failure. You are wrong about "more taxes." Taxes have decreased under Obama.

12-15-2011, 09:57 AM	#58
chiefst2000 Champion of Common Sense All Pro Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5,834	[QUOTE=parafly;4277170]I would categorize myself as socially liberal and fiscally moderate. I voted for Obama, but generally feel he's been a failure. You are wrong about "more taxes." Taxes have decreased under Obama.[/QUOTE] Well it depends how you look at it. The Obamacare legislation carries a new payroll tax on all Americans that kicks in in 2013. That is a tax hike we it just hasn't kicked in yet. I consider the raise in my healthcare premiums due to that legislation a tax hike as well. Now he did implement some temporary stimulus via a payroll tax cut but his current proposal includes a new tax on the wealthy. So it's intellectually dishonest to say taxes have gone down. The stimulus is temporary but the Obamacare tax as well as the millionaire tax are would be permanent. I also consider deficits to be a form of future taxes. Obamas unwillingness to reign in spending represents a future tax that will need to be covered.