Courtney Upshaw - Overrated slightly and maybe more of a 4-3 SLB.

[Much ado about Nothing]

I have had a funny feeling about Courtney Upshaw for a while now. I read alot about how he's top 15, how he's a solid bet as a 3-4 OLB, and that that's pretty much that. When I hear something so conclusive so early into the draft season it just feels to me like that leaves plenty of time to wonder how that conclusion came so quickly.

Anyway basically the guy is:

1 - Slow. He just is. It's what kills him for me, and I think it's the root of my skepticism. He's not slow in that he won't be successful. He's slow in that I don't think he's a high end 3-4 OLB prospect (pre-workouts).

2 - Not all that great of a pass rusher. 17.5 college sacks isn't all that badass, though he does get points for having them come in bunches the last two years.

3 - Not very big for the 3-4 OLB position in the NFL. Ware is taller and slightly heavier. Suggs is in the 260's. Same for Pace, Woodley, Orakpo, Kerrigan, and so on. They're all also taller for most part. He's not as long limbed as any of them either by my hack guess.

I wonder if he's not unlike Akeem Ayers from last year. Ayers was a really good looking LB prospect who caught the eye of most 3-4 teams when they thought he was 6'4 254 with a strong 40 time. He went on to have a strong rookie season for the Titans.

I actually wonder if Upshaw might be better of going to a 4-3 team. If he does find his way into a 3-4 he'd kick inside ala Derrick Johnson/Karlos Dansby/Bart Scott.

Or maybe I just buy more into DEs converting to OLB than most for this D...I honestly see no reason not to as the best 3-4 OLBs were all college DEs who maybe dabbled at LB because of raw athleticism + the coaches thought of more ways to get them free on a blitz....I don't see that with Upshaw...Different type of player, and still a damn good prospect...To me more of a really strong 2nd round pick who would make a weak first round pick.

[bitonti]

Originally Posted by Much ado about Nothing

3 - Not very big for the 3-4 OLB position in the NFL. Ware is taller and slightly heavier. Suggs is in the 260's. Same for Pace, Woodley, Orakpo, Kerrigan, and so on. They're all also taller for most part. He's not as long limbed as any of them either by my hack guess.

I see the exact opposite. He's huge by 3-4 OLb standards, supposedly walking around at 270. His arms are extremely long just by eyeballing.

Are you sure you're looking at the right player?

[augustiniak]

i think he looked menacing vs. lsu. big, active and polished. but i think there's a lot of quality guys on defense who will be available at 16.

[Come Back to NY]

right defensive scheme, wrong position....4-3 one-gap DE ala Dwight Freeney...

he's going to struggle at OLB when he is asked to play in space or in pursuit....he's not fast by any means and most of his big plays throughout the year came out of a three point stance.....

and you're right on the money about him not being tall at all (barely 6' 1.5")- especially via 3-4 OLB standards..that could be overlooked if he showed the ability to run ball handlers down from the back side but as stated previously, his game is power, not speed....

[bitonti]

here's a pretty good write up on Upshaw

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...couting-report

a note about size, being tall doesn't necessarily translate into being a good pass rusher. Alot of shorter pass rushers enjoy the leverage of getting under the pads. James Harrison, Dwight Freeney etc.

[DDNYjets]

Originally Posted by bitonti

here's a pretty good write up on Upshaw

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...couting-report

a note about size, being tall doesn't necessarily translate into being a good pass rusher. Alot of shorter pass rushers enjoy the leverage of getting under the pads. James Harrison, Dwight Freeney etc.

I agree. You dont need to be tall. You need to be fast, strong and athletic.

Read the article. Whoever wrote it is an eternal optimist.

My biggest issue with Upshaw is that he doesnt have the "bend" that guys like Harrison have. He looks stiff in his lower half. However, I have only watched him in a handful of games so that is not a big enough sample size to know for sure. It will be very interesting to watch him in the Senior Bowl practices and the Combine.

[TheMikeIsHot]

I've never had a WOW moment watching Upshaw. He's more of a middle of the pack guy to me, nothing special.

I think he will be a contributor in the NFL, not a difference maker... sort of like Bryan Thomas.

[TheMo]

Originally Posted by Much ado about Nothing

I have had a funny feeling about Courtney Upshaw for a while now. I read alot about how he's top 15, how he's a solid bet as a 3-4 OLB, and that that's pretty much that. When I hear something so conclusive so early into the draft season it just feels to me like that leaves plenty of time to wonder how that conclusion came so quickly.

Anyway basically the guy is:

1 - Slow. He just is. It's what kills him for me, and I think it's the root of my skepticism. He's not slow in that he won't be successful. He's slow in that I don't think he's a high end 3-4 OLB prospect (pre-workouts).

2 - Not all that great of a pass rusher. 17.5 college sacks isn't all that badass, though he does get points for having them come in bunches the last two years.

3 - Not very big for the 3-4 OLB position in the NFL. Ware is taller and slightly heavier. Suggs is in the 260's. Same for Pace, Woodley, Orakpo, Kerrigan, and so on. They're all also taller for most part. He's not as long limbed as any of them either by my hack guess.

I wonder if he's not unlike Akeem Ayers from last year. Ayers was a really good looking LB prospect who caught the eye of most 3-4 teams when they thought he was 6'4 254 with a strong 40 time. He went on to have a strong rookie season for the Titans.

I actually wonder if Upshaw might be better of going to a 4-3 team. If he does find his way into a 3-4 he'd kick inside ala Derrick Johnson/Karlos Dansby/Bart Scott.

Or maybe I just buy more into DEs converting to OLB than most for this D...I honestly see no reason not to as the best 3-4 OLBs were all college DEs who maybe dabbled at LB because of raw athleticism + the coaches thought of more ways to get them free on a blitz....I don't see that with Upshaw...Different type of player, and still a damn good prospect...To me more of a really strong 2nd round pick who would make a weak first round pick.

Agree, though if I recall correctly that was the big knock on Woodley and he has worked out quite well. I might be remembering this incorrectly.

But in terms of who I'd take in the first, I am very high on Nick Perry. Not as big as Upshaw but way more explosive/faster and has a deep pass rush repertoire (spin move, shed, power, speed rush, etc.). If I am going with a pass rusher that's my guy.

[Come Back to NY]

Originally Posted by TheMo

Agree, though if I recall correctly that was the big knock on Woodley and he has worked out quite well. I might be remembering this incorrectly.

But in terms of who I'd take in the first, I am very high on Nick Perry. Not as big as Upshaw but way more explosive/faster and has a deep pass rush repertoire (spin move, shed, power, speed rush, etc.). If I am going with a pass rusher that's my guy.

Woodley's big knock was he was a pu$$y and soft...his change of direction, pursuit skills and ability to play in space was light years ahead of Upshaw's but he pulled himself out of the Senior Bowl on monday complaining about a bad hamstring then refused to workout at the combine and red flags went flying....he did do incredibly well at his pro-day...

Perry has the athleticism UPshaw does not but i'd be concerned about what's going on between the ears...he's one of those guys that goes right when the play goes left or attacks the QB 10 seconds after the ball's been handed off and the RB is already over the line of scriummage...

[section314]

Originally Posted by bitonti

I see the exact opposite. He's huge by 3-4 OLb standards, supposedly walking around at 270. His arms are extremely long just by eyeballing.

Are you sure you're looking at the right player?

Bit...what are your first thoughts about the De/OLB from Illinois wilson I think?

[TheMo]

Originally Posted by Come Back to NY

Woodley's big knock was he was a pu$$y and soft...his change of direction, pursuit skills and ability to play in space was light years ahead of Upshaw's but he pulled himself out of the Senior Bowl on monday complaining about a bad hamstring then refused to workout at the combine and red flags went flying....he did do incredibly well at his pro-day...

Perry has the athleticism UPshaw does not but i'd be concerned about what's going on between the ears...he's one of those guys that goes right when the play goes left or attacks the QB 10 seconds after the ball's been handed off and the RB is already over the line of scriummage...

Gotchya on Woodley, I definitely was not positive on what his deal was.

Perry... well that's a shame, I guess it depends on what the FO thinks during the interview process.

[TheMo]

Originally Posted by section314

Bit...what are your first thoughts about the De/OLB from Illinois wilson I think?

Do you mean Whitney Mercilus?

[bitonti]

Originally Posted by TheMikeIsHot

I think he will be a contributor in the NFL, not a difference maker... sort of like Bryan Thomas.

exactly what they need

they can't start 2 Maybins on 1st and 10. they need guys who can start and be well rounded.

[bitonti]

Originally Posted by TheMo

Do you mean Whitney Mercilus?

I think he's a great 4-3 end prospect. I don't know if he can stand up or if the Jets have the guts to try.

[augustiniak]

Originally Posted by bitonti

exactly what they need

they can't start 2 Maybins on 1st and 10. they need guys who can start and be well rounded.

get bryan thomas in another round. you need to get impact players in the first round.

[bitonti]

Originally Posted by augustiniak

get bryan thomas in another round. you need to get impact players in the first round.

believe it or not Bryan Thomas was an impact player. He made a lot of big plays in last year's playoff run and he was a big part of the defense.

Was he a 10 sack a year guy? No but that happens.

If there's not a demarcus ware in this draft you can't force it. if the best that's there is a Pace/Thomas well it's better than starting MacIntyre/Westerman/Maybin. What's appealing about Upshaw is the low risk of transitioning him into the 3-4. He's played it for 4 years.

[augustiniak]

Originally Posted by bitonti

believe it or not Bryan Thomas was an impact player. He made a lot of big plays in last year's playoff run and he was a big part of the defense.

Was he a 10 sack a year guy? No but that happens.

If there's not a demarcus ware in this draft you can't force it. if the best that's there is a Pace/Thomas well it's better than starting MacIntyre/Westerman/Maybin. What's appealing about Upshaw is the low risk of transitioning him into the 3-4. He's played it for 4 years.

i think he'll be in the conversation in the war room. i say barring some surprise where richardson falls to them, their decision (barring the opportunity to trade back) is betweeen a top wr (i'll include kendall wright as a 'top' guy for now), a front 7 guy (ingram, upshaw, devon still, someone else) or an OL. if either T martin of stanford or decastro are there, i think the jets will take him over a front 7 guy. of course this is just my opinion. you've noted before that the jets don't generally take wrs in the first, which is why i don't think they take either floyd or jeffrey here. i think they believe they can get quality wrs in later rounds. this basically narrows it down to front 7 or OL (i also assume safety will be addressed in FA and isn't worth the #16 pick). for a team that is committed to running the ball, getting a top OL is more important than getting courtney upshaw. when you distill all the team's problems down to one single commonality, it's the offensive failures, which started up front. since they won't fix the qb position in the draft this year, they may figure it's best to fix the OL, then the front 7 of the defense, give sanchez another go, and if he's not the guy, they get another qb next year and the OL is set.

[bitonti]

Originally Posted by augustiniak

for a team that is committed to running the ball, getting a top OL is more important than getting courtney upshaw.

we are still very early in this process, the free agents they sign in March will tell alot about the players they are targeting in April. For example if they sign Levi Brown to play RT that pretty much takes OT out of the equation.

[augustiniak]

Originally Posted by bitonti

we are still very early in this process, the free agents they sign in March will tell alot about the players they are targeting in April. For example if they sign Levi Brown to play RT that pretty much takes OT out of the equation.

a lot depends what they do in FA.

[Woody56]

not a big fan of upshaw myself, but he is definitely not a 4-3 lb.