Mark Sanchez made a lot of improvements during his 3rd season last year.

[McGinley]

Originally Posted by JB1089

Haven't you already made this thread before?


I'm one of the most pro-Sanchez people on here, and everytime I read through your spinning of the numbers, I have to reconsider my position. It's one thing to be a fan, it's another to make no attempt whatsoever to be objective. Picking out a set of games that gives Sanchez a 94.6 passer rating? Really? You think that's an accurate reflection of the player that he is right now?


I'm pro-Sanchez, but my argument has always been that he's shown enough to give him more time and that he's not primarily responsible for the team's struggles last year or either AFCCG loss. I don't know how good he'll wind up being. I think that it's unlikely that he'll ever be elite (though there's still a remote chance) and I'm almost certain that he'll be better than he has been.

Anyone that believes Sanchez is a good QB right now has a very broad understanding of what it means to be "good." I have Sanchez somewhere in the 14-19 range. That's average to slightly below-average. If he was 29, I wouldn't be satisfied with that, but he's not, so I want to give him more time instead of starting over with another young QB. But that doesn't seem to be your position.




Lastly, I'm someone that also likes to use stats to support their arguments. Yet I find your number filled ramblings to be frustrating.

Sanchez increased his passing yardage in 2011.........so what? He threw the ball more often, his yards per attempt went down. His touchdowns increased, I was very happy about this, and his performance in the red zone improved dramatically.

There's no way to put a negative spin on that, but you should also be mindful that our red zone playcalling was radically different in 2011 than it was in 2009 and 2010. We ran the ball less and threw more. Sanchez's passing TDs were slightly depressed in his first two years, and slightly inflated in his 3rd year.

Anyone that has watched the Dolphins for the past few years should know how conservative Sparano is in the red zone. Sanchez could play just as well in the red zone and throw for fewer TDs in 2012 than he did in 2011.

Lastly, our red zone excellence last year masked how bad the offense really was. Red zone %'s tend to fluctuate significantly from year to year. Even the best offenses in the league have a hard time maintaining the 65% success rate that we had last year, from season to season. If the offense regresses to 54% (where the Giants were last year), combined with the shift in red zone playcalling....that's why you can't just say "Sanchez threw for 26 TDs last year, he should throw for even more this year if he continues to progress."

It's one thing to look at a box score, it's another to understand the context in which those numbers were produced. Far too often, you're just regurgitating numbers and giving the most pro-Jet interpretation of them that you can come up with.

[TheMikeIsHot]

How can you say a player has improved when the first sentence in your post says "he crapped the bed in his last 3 games."

There's no reason for anybody to read further than that.

And anyone who knows what he's talking about isn't paying any mind to the useless stats you cherry picked.

I like Sanchez and I actually think he's going to have a good season. But you'd have to be crazy to see a player who improved last year. He was very, very bad when it counted most. He didn't have a ton of help but he was just terrible.

[GuidoYaztremski]

Originally Posted by JB1089

Haven't you already made this thread before?


I'm one of the most pro-Sanchez people on here, and everytime I read through your spinning of the numbers, I have to reconsider my position. It's one thing to be a fan, it's another to make no attempt whatsoever to be objective. Picking out a set of games that gives Sanchez a 94.6 passer rating? Really? You think that's an accurate reflection of the player that he is right now?


I'm pro-Sanchez, but my argument has always been that he's shown enough to give him more time and that he's not primarily responsible for the team's struggles last year or either AFCCG loss. I don't know how good he'll wind up being. I think that it's unlikely that he'll ever be elite (though there's still a remote chance) and I'm almost certain that he'll be better than he has been.

Anyone that believes Sanchez is a good QB right now has a very broad understanding of what it means to be "good." I have Sanchez somewhere in the 14-19 range. That's average to slightly below-average. If he was 29, I wouldn't be satisfied with that, but he's not, so I want to give him more time instead of starting over with another young QB. But that doesn't seem to be your position.




Lastly, I'm someone that also likes to use stats to support their arguments. Yet I find your number filled ramblings to be frustrating.

Sanchez increased his passing yardage in 2011.........so what? He threw the ball more often, his yards per attempt went down. His touchdowns increased, I was very happy about this, and his performance in the red zone improved dramatically.

There's no way to put a negative spin on that, but you should also be mindful that our red zone playcalling was radically different in 2011 than it was in 2009 and 2010. We ran the ball less and threw more. Sanchez's passing TDs were slightly depressed in his first two years, and slightly inflated in his 3rd year.

Anyone that has watched the Dolphins for the past few years should know how conservative Sparano is in the red zone. Sanchez could play just as well in the red zone and throw for fewer TDs in 2012 than he did in 2011.

Lastly, our red zone excellence last year masked how bad the offense really was. Red zone %'s tend to fluctuate significantly from year to year. Even the best offenses in the league have a hard time maintaining the 65% success rate that we had last year, from season to season. If the offense regresses to 54% (where the Giants were last year), combined with the shift in red zone playcalling....that's why you can't just say "Sanchez threw for 26 TDs last year, he should throw for even more this year if he continues to progress."

It's one thing to look at a box score, it's another to understand the context in which those numbers were produced. Far too often, you're just regurgitating numbers and giving the most pro-Jet interpretation of them that you can come up with.

DWC hits a new low, yet you make this post. Excellent reasoned reply. The kid just doesn't get it.

[jp5002]

First of all, great post by JB1089. Also, it's very hard in football to use stats to show an argument. Case in point, I remember Sanchez' game against buffalo where he threw for 4 touchdowns was one of the worst games of the year for him. He was extremely erratic, overthrowing recievers, throwing would be picks. But he had 4 touchdowns so it looks like he had 1 of the best games of the year. I remeber most Jet fans after the game ripping on him. One of the worst 4 touchdown games I've ever seen.

On the contrary, the game against Baltimore, although horrible, could hardly be put on Sanchez. He had absolutely no time in the pocket, and was getting creamed on every play. I'm not going to clear him of all the blame, but he just didn't have a chance that game. I know people use the O-line excuse alot, and it gets old, but this game was by far the 1 game you could really use it on. It was god awful.

[DDNYjets]

DWC is a wannabe JB. A very, very poor man's JB.

He will never be JB.

JB uses a lot of numbers, but he knows how to use them and how to keep them in context.

The real JB just schooled the impostor.

[DDNYjets]

Originally Posted by jp5002

First of all, great post by JB1089. Also, it's very hard in football to use stats to show an argument. Case in point, I remember Sanchez' game against buffalo where he threw for 4 touchdowns was one of the worst games of the year for him. He was extremely erratic, overthrowing recievers, throwing would be picks. But he had 4 touchdowns so it looks like he had 1 of the best games of the year. I remeber most Jet fans after the game ripping on him. One of the worst 4 touchdown games I've ever seen.

On the contrary, the game against Baltimore, although horrible, could hardly be put on Sanchez. He had absolutely no time in the pocket, and was getting creamed on every play. I'm not going to clear him of all the blame, but he just didn't have a chance that game. I know people use the O-line excuse alot, and it gets old, but this game was by far the 1 game you could really use it on. It was god awful.

Solid 1st post.

And for the first time, I actually mean that when I say it.

[jp5002]

I bet you'll really freak when I tell you I'm a dolphins fan haha. I wasn't going to say it because I didn't want to worry about people jumping down my throat for being a "troll" or whatever (even though I can promise you I'm not and I wont be, just hear to talk football with a rival), but I had to now lol

[Matt39]

Originally Posted by JB1089

Haven't you already made this thread before?


I'm one of the most pro-Sanchez people on here, and everytime I read through your spinning of the numbers, I have to reconsider my position. It's one thing to be a fan, it's another to make no attempt whatsoever to be objective. Picking out a set of games that gives Sanchez a 94.6 passer rating? Really? You think that's an accurate reflection of the player that he is right now?


I'm pro-Sanchez, but my argument has always been that he's shown enough to give him more time and that he's not primarily responsible for the team's struggles last year or either AFCCG loss. I don't know how good he'll wind up being. I think that it's unlikely that he'll ever be elite (though there's still a remote chance) and I'm almost certain that he'll be better than he has been.

Anyone that believes Sanchez is a good QB right now has a very broad understanding of what it means to be "good." I have Sanchez somewhere in the 14-19 range. That's average to slightly below-average. If he was 29, I wouldn't be satisfied with that, but he's not, so I want to give him more time instead of starting over with another young QB. But that doesn't seem to be your position.




Lastly, I'm someone that also likes to use stats to support their arguments. Yet I find your number filled ramblings to be frustrating.

Sanchez increased his passing yardage in 2011.........so what? He threw the ball more often, his yards per attempt went down. His touchdowns increased, I was very happy about this, and his performance in the red zone improved dramatically.

There's no way to put a negative spin on that, but you should also be mindful that our red zone playcalling was radically different in 2011 than it was in 2009 and 2010. We ran the ball less and threw more. Sanchez's passing TDs were slightly depressed in his first two years, and slightly inflated in his 3rd year.

Anyone that has watched the Dolphins for the past few years should know how conservative Sparano is in the red zone. Sanchez could play just as well in the red zone and throw for fewer TDs in 2012 than he did in 2011.

Lastly, our red zone excellence last year masked how bad the offense really was. Red zone %'s tend to fluctuate significantly from year to year. Even the best offenses in the league have a hard time maintaining the 65% success rate that we had last year, from season to season. If the offense regresses to 54% (where the Giants were last year), combined with the shift in red zone playcalling....that's why you can't just say "Sanchez threw for 26 TDs last year, he should throw for even more this year if he continues to progress."

It's one thing to look at a box score, it's another to understand the context in which those numbers were produced. Far too often, you're just regurgitating numbers and giving the most pro-Jet interpretation of them that you can come up with.

that about wraps this up...

[FF2®]

Originally Posted by NY2FLDWC85

First, I'll start off by saying that Sanchez completely crapped the bed during the final 3 games of the regular season.

So yes, as a 3rd year developing quarterback, Sanchez did have 3 failures during our first 13 games against the Ravens, Patriots and Broncos,

So your point is except for the 6 games where he sucked, (including the last 3 which the Jets really needed him to step up but he choked) Sanchez played well?

I would agree with you!

[HitSomeone41]

If most of the now elite QB's would have been scrutinized and put under a microscope like Sanchez and his first three years in the league......there would be no Hall of Fame QB's in Canton.
Good grief!

[GreenWave]

Originally Posted by DDNYjets

DWC is a wannabe JB. A very, very poor man's JB.

He will never be JB.

JB uses a lot of numbers, but he knows how to use them and how to keep them in context.

The real JB just schooled the impostor.

I'd like to your of the previous

You know your argument is dead when 15 consecutive posts are praising the guy who refuted everything you said.

[sg3]

great job again by DWC


keep up the great work here at JI

[Jordy]

Originally Posted by Untouchable

This is the kind of silly sh*t that I'm talking about.

The guy turned the ball over 26 times last season, yet you try your hardest to make it sound like Sanchez is already a legitimate franchise QB. Aside from his playoff record, what exactly is this based on?

He's one of the most erratic, inaccurate, turnover prone starting QB's in the NFL at this point. Can he improve? Sure he can, and I think that every Jets fan out there hopes that he does. But this constant excuse making is getting to be incredibly tiresome.

Amen.

This guy needs to "invent" threads so he can go on his stat-infused rants.

[NY2FLDWC85]

Who said anything about Sanchez being "good". I simply made it known that as a developing quarterback, Sanchez improved last year. The negative critics will say otherwise. Once again... He improved last year.

Originally Posted by ;

During his first two seasons, he combined for a QB rating of 69.5. Last year he put up a QB rating of 78.2. I'm not comparing Sanchez to Brady, but it took Brady until his 5th year in the league before he posted his first seasonal QB Rating of 90.0+

During his first two seasons, he combined for 8 games in which he threw multiple INT's. Last year Sanchez had 5 games in which he threw multiple INT's. The difference? In 2009/2010 Sanchez combined for games of 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4 and 5 INT games. Last year Sanchez had games of 2, 2, 2, 2 and 3 INT games.

During his first two seasons, he combined for 1 INT per every 26.4 drop backs. Last year, Sanchez threw 1 INT per every every 30.1 drop backs.

During his first two seasons, he combined for 35 TD's/33 INT's. Last year alone, Sanchez put up 32 TD's/18 INT's.

During his first two seasons, he combined for a completion percentage of 69.1%. Last year, Sanchez improved his accuracy with a 56.7 completion percentage. Has improved his accuracy each of his first 3 seasons. Expecting at least 60% this season.

During his first two seasons, he combined for 7 games of multiple TD's (2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3 & 3). Last year alone, Sanchez put up 9 games of multiple TD's of 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3 and 4 TD performances.

During his first two seasons, he combined for 8 games of 250+ yards. Last year alone, Sanchez put up 5 games of 250+ yards.

During first first two seasons, he combined for 2 games of 300+ yards. Last year alone, Sanchez put up 3 games of 300+ yards.

During his first two seasons, he combined for 7 games of 80-90 QB ratings, 1 game of 90-100 QB Ratings and 7 games of 100+ QB ratings. Last year alone Sanchez put up 4 games of 80-90 QB ratings, 4 games of 90-100 QB ratings and 2 games of 100+ QB ratings.

During his first two seasons, he combined for 7 games of 60% completion percentages or higher (61.4%, 63.2%, 63.6%, 64.9%, 65.5%, 70% and 76.5%). Last year alone, Sanchez put up 7 games of 60% completion percentages or higher (60.0%, 61.4%, 61.5%, 61.9%, 65.5% and 70.8% and 71.4%). He's not improving upon his accuracy?

During his first two seasons, he combined for 9 games of 50% completion percentages or below (34.5%, 38.1%, 38.6%, 42.1%, 46.7%, 47.6%, 47.7%, 50.0% & 50.0%). As a 3rd year player Sanchez only had 2 games of 50% or below (31.4% and 48.6%). Would you still like to claim that "Sanchez hasn't improved upon his accuracy"?

Sanchez improved last season, regardless of what NE fans and/or negative critics have to say.

He made all of those improvements, despite being surrounding by a couple awful situations. Plaxico Burress was a useless between the 20's WR due to A.) Aging and B.) Spending almost 3 years away from the game of football inside of a prison cell. Sanchez was forced to work with a #2 WR in Burress who couldn't land a training camp invite with the Panthers this offseason. A slot WR in Derrick Mason who was (and is) completely washed up. Couldn't get any type of production out of Mason for 5 weeks. A raw 5th round slot WR in Jeremy Kerely who was thrown into the fire due to Mason's release. Ferguson having his worst season at LT since his rookie year. Mangold getting hurt, missing games, and taking a while to recover back to full strength. Moore was recovering from offseason hip surgery and had his worst season in quite some time. Hunter became a true disaster on the offensive line. None of these are "excuses" as the Sanchez critics like to call them, they're facts. Anyone who seen the Ravens disaster (where we started an undrafted rookie in Baxter) would have understood that not even Montana had a chance to survive that game. They talk about Mark's turnovers; 5 happened during that 1 disaster alone. Sanchez improved as a quarterback, despite some pretty awful situations surrounding him; only a complete tool would say otherwise.

[Jordy]

Originally Posted by JB1089

Haven't you already made this thread before?


I'm one of the most pro-Sanchez people on here, and everytime I read through your spinning of the numbers, I have to reconsider my position. It's one thing to be a fan, it's another to make no attempt whatsoever to be objective. Picking out a set of games that gives Sanchez a 94.6 passer rating? Really? You think that's an accurate reflection of the player that he is right now?


I'm pro-Sanchez, but my argument has always been that he's shown enough to give him more time and that he's not primarily responsible for the team's struggles last year or either AFCCG loss. I don't know how good he'll wind up being. I think that it's unlikely that he'll ever be elite (though there's still a remote chance) and I'm almost certain that he'll be better than he has been.

Anyone that believes Sanchez is a good QB right now has a very broad understanding of what it means to be "good." I have Sanchez somewhere in the 14-19 range. That's average to slightly below-average. If he was 29, I wouldn't be satisfied with that, but he's not, so I want to give him more time instead of starting over with another young QB. But that doesn't seem to be your position.




Lastly, I'm someone that also likes to use stats to support their arguments. Yet I find your number filled ramblings to be frustrating.

Sanchez increased his passing yardage in 2011.........so what? He threw the ball more often, his yards per attempt went down. His touchdowns increased, I was very happy about this, and his performance in the red zone improved dramatically.

There's no way to put a negative spin on that, but you should also be mindful that our red zone playcalling was radically different in 2011 than it was in 2009 and 2010. We ran the ball less and threw more. Sanchez's passing TDs were slightly depressed in his first two years, and slightly inflated in his 3rd year.

Anyone that has watched the Dolphins for the past few years should know how conservative Sparano is in the red zone. Sanchez could play just as well in the red zone and throw for fewer TDs in 2012 than he did in 2011.

Lastly, our red zone excellence last year masked how bad the offense really was. Red zone %'s tend to fluctuate significantly from year to year. Even the best offenses in the league have a hard time maintaining the 65% success rate that we had last year, from season to season. If the offense regresses to 54% (where the Giants were last year), combined with the shift in red zone playcalling....that's why you can't just say "Sanchez threw for 26 TDs last year, he should throw for even more this year if he continues to progress."

It's one thing to look at a box score, it's another to understand the context in which those numbers were produced. Far too often, you're just regurgitating numbers and giving the most pro-Jet interpretation of them that you can come up with.

Originally Posted by Untouchable

Originally Posted by ASG0531

Double

I'm far too lazy to put together that honest, legitimate assessment of Sanchez that happens to also smack down DWC's spin. That was a good read, JB.

Boom! goes the dynamite.

[Joe W. Namath]

In the 10 games you listed, he threw for less then 200 yards in 6 of them. Tebow can do that but better.

[Jordy]

Originally Posted by sg3

great job again by DWC


keep up the great work here at JI

And Mr. Clueless supports a post that just got ripped by every other poster in this thread.

How sad.

[Untouchable]

Originally Posted by NY2FLDWC85

Who said anything about Sanchez being "good".

You did...repeatedly.

[Jordy]

Originally Posted by NY2FLDWC85

Who said anything about Sanchez being "good". I simply made it known that as a developing quarterback, Sanchez improved last year. The negative critics will say otherwise. Once again... He improved last year.

Sanchez improved as a quarterback, despite some pretty awful situations surrounding him; only a complete tool would say otherwise.

So I guess you're saying Mike Tannenbaum is a tool?

Jets G.M. Mike Tannenbaum was blunt in an interview with Mike Francesa on WFAN, saying Sanchez’s growth as a quarterback “isn’t where it needs to be” and adding, “No, he didn’t play well.”

[GuidoYaztremski]

Originally Posted by NY2FLDWC85

Who said anything about Sanchez being "good". I simply made it known that as a developing quarterback, Sanchez improved last year. The negative critics will say otherwise. Once again... He improved last year.



He made all of those improvements, despite being surrounding by a couple awful situations. Plaxico Burress was a useless between the 20's WR due to A.) Aging and B.) Spending almost 3 years away from the game of football inside of a prison cell. Sanchez was forced to work with a #2 WR in Burress who couldn't land a training camp invite with the Panthers this offseason. A slot WR in Derrick Mason who was (and is) completely washed up. Couldn't get any type of production out of Mason for 5 weeks. A raw 5th round slot WR in Jeremy Kerely who was thrown into the fire due to Mason's release. Ferguson having his worst season at LT since his rookie year. Mangold getting hurt, missing games, and taking a while to recover back to full strength. Moore was recovering from offseason hip surgery and had his worst season in quite some time. Hunter became a true disaster on the offensive line. None of these are "excuses" as the Sanchez critics like to call them, they're facts. Anyone who seen the Ravens disaster (where we started an undrafted rookie in Baxter) would have understood that not even Montana had a chance to survive that game. They talk about Mark's turnovers; 5 happened during that 1 disaster alone. Sanchez improved as a quarterback, despite some pretty awful situations surrounding him; only a complete tool would say otherwise.

So your wife serves you a sh!t sandwich and calls it lunch and you're forced to eat it and smile.

The next week she takes a leak in a sauce pan, heats it up, and gives it to you for lunch, and you eat it up and say "Honey, your cooking is improving"?





See what I did there?