Revisiting Gun Laws in the U.S.

[MCBNY]

I think now is a good time to rekindle the debate on guns and regulation of guns in the U.S. We are going to have strong, passionate, differing opinions so please try to keep it civil, although it probably won’t happen.

I stand on the far end of one side in believing that guns should be banned entirely. I see no positives. They are way too easily accessible, first of all. I think everyone should be able to agree on that. Why do repeated massacres like Virginia Tech, Columbine, last night’s keep happening? Because these psychopaths can just waltz into a gun shop and buy them. The system and background checks are so loosely enforced, if they are even enforced at all. It’s an absolute joke.

Here’s a comment I read online from someone:

****
“I live in Madrid now. No handguns.

Last week, both my iPad and my iPhone were stolen in the subway.

In response to the loss of my property (about which I was violently angry), a friend in the States wrote, "Don't you wish you'd had had a gun so you could've shot them?", to which I replied, "As angry as I am, stuff is just stuff, and nothing is worth a human life."

I don't think most Americans realize what it's like to live in a culture in which there is zero fear of gun violence, as opposed to one in which people are legally armed and able to act immediately on their reptilian instincts with deadly force.

It's just crazy. Completely crazy.”
****

I could not agree more with him. It’s time for America to change. I know people want to cringe with the slightest mention at becoming more like Europe, but there’s no denying they have better policies with regard to gun control. That’s my opinion at least. Actually, it’s more of a fact, because gun violence is way lower over there compared to here. Isn’t that the goal? Safer country, with less of a threat of violence? I think it’s pretty straightforward. Get rid of guns = violence goes down. PROVEN.

[Apache 51]

It's never gonna happen. We are not Spain, nor England etc. A lunatic is going to get it's hands on whatever and do what they want to cause tragedy.

[MCBNY]

Originally Posted by Apache 51

It's never gonna happen. We are not Spain, nor England etc. A lunatic is going to get it's hands on whatever and do what they want to cause tragedy.

Why is it never gonna happen? All it takes is a simple law to be passed which will change the culture.

Violence WILL decline if better laws are passed and enforced. Will gun violence completely disappear? Hell no. There will always be a way to get around the system and get a gun. But it would be much harder, and the result would be NOT having one of these massacres every other year.

People said the same thing about abolishing slavery and giving women rights. "It's never gonna happen."

[sackdance]

Originally Posted by MCBNY

which will change the culture.

Culture is fine.

Sicko is a sicko.

The media tried (and were fairly successful) calling Jared Laughlin a Tea Partier, when in fact he was a libertarian Democrat (and 1000% more nuts than anything else).

We already saw ABC tried calling this guy a Tea Partier ... no dice. In fact, as soon as I saw "ex-medical student" along with his black clad self and gas mask, I thought OWS.

But the thing about OWS's Black Bloc is that violence is a valid option. Yes, this guy was nuts, but I think he took solace in company with people only slightly less nuts than he.

The left would love than to have the classic "angry, white, conservative male" perpetrating mayhem to further their agenda.

And we should preserve the f'ing culture, it's what makes this country great.

[DDNYjets]

Not going to happen. Nor should it happen.

If you want to argue assault weapons and explosives then I agree to an extent. But shotguns and handguns will never go away.

And with regards to slavery and woman's rights, in those cases we expanded freedoms, this would be the opposite.

[JetPotato]

We now have two threads on this board: One about a senator calling for limitations to the First Amendment, and one from some kid who wants to repeal the Second Amendment. Add in a government that routinely pisses on the 10th Amendment.

Is there any part of this thing you people want to actually keep?

I'll tell you what, if you really want to start stripping it down, let's start with the 16th Amendment. Whaddya say? Deal?

[chiefst2000]

In NYC handguns are all but banned yet somehow criminals always have access. If someone comes to your house like those criminals did to that doctor in Connecticut, and you don't have a home defense weapon, you would be wishing you did. I think everyone should own a shotgun for self defense.

[Bonhomme Richard]

Outlawing all guns will make illegal gun proliferation even more extreme. You think it's bad now? Wait until the only people who have guns are the criminals. Yeah, great idea.

[HoustonJET]

Originally Posted by MCBNY

People said the same thing about abolishing slavery and giving women rights. "It's never gonna happen."

That's because those people were the oppressors.. Pretty sure the victims had a different POV... failed attempt to make a point...

[AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite]

It's been said already but this is a serious question(s)...

What other constitutional amendments do you feel need to be ripped out?

Is it just a decrepit document not deserving of use in our country any longer?

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by MCBNY

I think now is a good time to rekindle the debate on guns

While the bodies are still warm.

How predictable.

Get rid of guns = violence goes down. PROVEN.

Shocking that this was your point.

Truly shocking.

Who would have thought the Anti-2nd Amendment Types would use this tragedy for Political gain.

[jpoppy7]

Originally Posted by MCBNY

I think now is a good time to rekindle the debate on guns and regulation of guns in the U.S. .

No. Now is a terrible time to do so. Let's show a little respect for the victims before turning to use this tragedy to further political positions. This goes for both sides.

[DeanPatsFan]

Originally Posted by Warfish

While the bodies are still warm.

How predictable.



Shocking that this was your point.

Truly shocking.

Who would have thought the Anti-2nd Amendment Types would use this tragedy for Political gain.

The same people calling for a gun ban, are the same types calling for the legalization of drugs....because a ban doesn't work...

PS

How's that gun ban in Chicago and DC working out?

[thebigragu]

You guys understand that a quick walk in brighton beach or alantic ave in brooklyn just to name a few will supply you with any gun of your choice if you have the cash. And they dont do background checks and aren't bothered in the slightest if you're a known violent offender.

How do you propose to get rid of these guns.

[cedk]

Originally Posted by MCBNY

I think now is a good time to rekindle the debate on guns and regulation of guns in the U.S. .

Yeah great timing. But never bring it up when somebody successfully defends themselves from homicide, rape or getting robbed and beaten.

Let's be like Europe where only the special few were allowed to have guns and everybody else its just a battle of the fittest.
If your women, old or weak you're dead meat.

Having said that I do agree with you. Something has to be done and instead of lying what's being said in the Constitution or trying to take away fundamental rights to defend one's self I say find a middle ground.

Develop a less lethal weapon where one can defend themselves but not as deadly.

That would be an advanced stun gun that shoots accurately from 50 yards away with todays technology I think it's possible.

[doggin94it]

Spain gunman kills four in Girona province

Spain relives notorious massacre after shotgun killer hangs himself in cell



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

This is a partial list of mass murders and spree killings perpetrated by individuals. . . . .

Just since 1990, in Europe:


Izquierdo, Antonio, 53
Izquierdo, Emilio, 58 Aug. 26 1990 Puerto Hurraco Spain 9
6-12
F Criscione, Erminio, 36 March 4 1992 Rivera, Massagno & Origlio Switzerland 6
6
F Milicic, Drago, 23^ Feb. 2 1992 Bijeljina & Modran Bosnia-Herzegovina 6
0
F Palic, Vinko, 28^° Jan. 1 1993 Zrinski Topolovac Croatia 9
5-7
F Mikolajczyk, Erwin, 39 March 9 1994 Euskirchen Germany 6
8
F E Flink, Mattias, 24^ June 11 1994 Falun Sweden 7
1
F Zethraeus, Tommy, 25 Dec. 4 1994 Stockholm Sweden 4
18-20
F Bešlić, Borislav, 41^ June 18 1994 Osijek Croatia 4
8
F Shayakhmetov, ---, 66° June 25 1994 Ural Mountains Russia 6
0
MA Morgan, David Cedric, 30 Dec. 8 1994 Birmingham U.K. 0
15
M
Borel, Eric, 16° Sep. 23/24 1995 Solliès-Pont & Cuers France 15
4-5
FM Unknown Feb. 17 1997 Zavyalovka Ukraine 7
?
M Chubarov, Yuri, 47 Sep. 20 1997 Iecava Latvia 7
1
F Unknown May 24 1997 Balagansk Russia 4
6
F Gautsch, Johann, 36 Nov. 21 1997 Mauterndorf Austria 6
0
F Matajić-Tunja, Antun, 51 April 14 1998 Slavonski Brod Croatia 7
1
F Zavistonovičius, Leonardas, 58 Feb. 15 1998 Draučiai Lithuania 8
1
F Peyerl, Martin, 16° Nov. 1 1999 Bad Reichenhall Germany 4
5-7
F Ewen, Günter Hermann, 36 May 16 1999 Dillingen
Sierck-les-Bains Germany
France 5
11
F
Leibacher, Friedrich Heinz, 57 Sep. 27 2001 Zug Switzerland 14
18
F E Roux-Durrafourt, Jean-Pierre, 44 Oct. 29 2001 Tours France 4
7
F Durn, Richard, 33 March 27 2002 Nanterre France 8
19
F Shageyev, Almaz, 21^
(Алмаз Шагеев)
Sukhorukov, Mikhail, 20^
(Михаил Сухоруков) Feb. 3-5 2002 Tatarstan Russia 9
2
F Semidovskiy, Sergey, 40^
(Сергей Семидовский) Aug. 24 2002 Yaroslavka Russia 5
10
F Unknown, 32 Sep. 6 2002 Obfelden Switzerland 0
14
M
Sacco, Angelo Secondo, 54 June 28 2005 Bogogno Italy 3
9
F P., Mike, 16 May 26 2006 Berlin Germany 0
34
M Radosavljevic, Nikola, 38° July 27 2007 Jabukovac Serbia 9
2
F Yevsyukov, Denis, 32^
(Денис Евсюков) April 27 2009 Moscow Russia 2-6
6-7
F

Bird, Derrick, 52° June 2 2010 Copeland, Cumbria U.K. 12
11
F Harman, Ľubomír, 48 Aug. 30 2010 Devínska Nová Ves Slovakia 7
15
F Radmacher, Sabine, 41° Sep. 19 2010 Lörrach Germany 3
18
FMA Amrani, Nordine, 33 Dec. 13 2011 Liège Belgium 6
123
F E van der Vlis, Tristan, 24 April 9 2011 Alphen aan den Rijn Netherlands 6
17
F



The numbers after the locations are the people killed and wounded



That's 34 spree killers in 22 years.

In the US, there were 29 in the same time period - fewer than Europe.

You were saying?

[PlumberKhan]

Originally Posted by Warfish

While the bodies are still warm.

How predictable.

Jeez.

MC actually did a good thing here. The thread in the Hamper was devolving into a Pol-Shoot Out so he started this one here. It's not like he's one of the PolForum regulars.

[Winstonbiggs]

Originally Posted by chiefst2000

In NYC handguns are all but banned yet somehow criminals always have access. If someone comes to your house like those criminals did to that doctor in Connecticut, and you don't have a home defense weapon, you would be wishing you did. I think everyone should own a shotgun for self defense.

I believe NYC still allows people who pay the toll to come up from VA without having their trunks open and searched.

I live in CT and I think you can own a shotgun in CT.

[crasherino]

Originally Posted by chiefst2000

In NYC handguns are all but banned yet somehow criminals always have access. If someone comes to your house like those criminals did to that doctor in Connecticut, and you don't have a home defense weapon, you would be wishing you did. I think everyone should own a shotgun for self defense.

Criminals have access predominantly on account of the steady flow of guns from states with very lax gun laws.

Originally Posted by Bonhomme Richard

Outlawing all guns will make illegal gun proliferation even more extreme. You think it's bad now? Wait until the only people who have guns are the criminals. Yeah, great idea.

I don't think most people - even those who are in favor of strict gun control laws - are in favor of outlawing all guns. That's a pretty extreme position that doesn't really warrant much rebuttal.

Chief, above, advocates everyone owning a shotgun for self-defense. I don't think there is a jurisdiction in the nation that would prohibit that. And if folks want to argue that the fire arm restrictions in places like NY/IL/DC are too restrictive and think they should be somewhat loosened (i.e. the somewhat draconian cost of getting a license as well as renewing it in NY), I'm somewhat on board. But, hopefully that would go hand in hand with somehow limiting the ability of criminals to hop in their car, drive a few hours, and purchase handguns, assault weapons, etc. with impunity.

Contrary to what the OP thinks, there is no way to change the culture of this country - and there isn't really any reason to. There are millions of law abiding, gun owning citizens that really aren't the problem here. But, it is far too easy, with the law as it is today, for criminals to obtain fire arms. The licensing, permit-process, background checks, waiting periods, etc. should be much stricter, across the board. And yes, considering the state of certain states' restrictions (or lack thereof) the Federal Government should be involved in enacting stricter regulations (runs for cover...).

[freestater]

Originally Posted by MCBNY

I think now is a good time to rekindle the debate on guns and regulation of guns in the U.S. We are going to have strong, passionate, differing opinions so please try to keep it civil, although it probably won’t happen.

I stand on the far end of one side in believing that guns should be banned entirely. I see no positives. They are way too easily accessible, first of all. I think everyone should be able to agree on that. Why do repeated massacres like Virginia Tech, Columbine, last night’s keep happening? Because these psychopaths can just waltz into a gun shop and buy them. The system and background checks are so loosely enforced, if they are even enforced at all. It’s an absolute joke.

Here’s a comment I read online from someone:

****
“I live in Madrid now. No handguns.

Last week, both my iPad and my iPhone were stolen in the subway.

In response to the loss of my property (about which I was violently angry), a friend in the States wrote, "Don't you wish you'd had had a gun so you could've shot them?", to which I replied, "As angry as I am, stuff is just stuff, and nothing is worth a human life."

I don't think most Americans realize what it's like to live in a culture in which there is zero fear of gun violence, as opposed to one in which people are legally armed and able to act immediately on their reptilian instincts with deadly force.

It's just crazy. Completely crazy.”
****

I could not agree more with him. It’s time for America to change. I know people want to cringe with the slightest mention at becoming more like Europe, but there’s no denying they have better policies with regard to gun control. That’s my opinion at least. Actually, it’s more of a fact, because gun violence is way lower over there compared to here. Isn’t that the goal? Safer country, with less of a threat of violence? I think it’s pretty straightforward. Get rid of guns = violence goes down. PROVEN.

No. The goal is a free country. Not a safe one. The two are polar opposites. That's my opinion at least. Actually, it's more of a fact.