Shooting

[MnJetFan]

The one question I have is? Why in hell did the company sell this guy all the ammo within a few months without notifying local authorties. My god use a little commonsense.

[Jetdawgg]

Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive. Who is the idiot that made the place a 'Gun Free zone'? That is what made the place a turkey shoot

[Winstonbiggs]

Originally Posted by Jetdawgg

Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive. Who is the idiot that made the place a 'Gun Free zone'? That is what made the place a turkey shoot

It would have been cool if everyone in the theatre was armed. You could make a nice anti-police thread as dazed patrons with arms drawn and firing came out of the theatre and police fired on them.

[MnJetFan]

There would be blood flowing out of the Theater.

[Frequent Flyer]

[gunnails]

I bought 800 rounds of ammo at Walmart on Saturday, maybe someone should alert the authorities?

[palmetto defender]

The police reported that his AR15 jammed and was inoperable after a bit. Imagine if was able to continue to use that weapon instead of just the Glock and his shotgun.
But, the guns were purchased legally and he had a clean record. Impossible to predict this.

[Jetdawgg]

More government; the ammo counting division...

[parafly]

Originally Posted by MnJetFan

The one question I have is? Why in hell did the company sell this guy all the ammo within a few months without notifying local authorties. My god use a little commonsense.

There are a significant number of powerful pro-gun organizations which lobby and fight for gun and ammo purchase privacy rights.

I believe the laws vary by state. Legally speaking, a purchase of a firearm or ammo in Colorado should not go down in state or federal government records.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by MnJetFan

The one question I have is? Why in hell did the company sell this guy all the ammo within a few months without notifying local authorties. My god use a little commonsense.

Probably because there is no Law against it, and target shooters )of which there are many) can go through a huge amount of rounds in short order, making a bulk purchase not unusual.

Commonsense is to blame the shooter for his actions, and hold him accountable.

Commonsense is to check to ensure no Laws were broken by others, and if they were, to hold them accountable.

The online purchase of ammo in bulk is not illegal, and the seller holds no accountabillity for this event.

[doggin94it]

Originally Posted by Jetdawgg

Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive. Who is the idiot that made the place a 'Gun Free zone'? That is what made the place a turkey shoot

Yeah! I mean sure, the guy had tossed in a canister of tear gas and was wearing body armor, but I'm sure a citizen with a gun would have been able to hit him in the head or through a seam in the body armor, and not accidentally shoot anyone else in the chaos. After all, if those conditions aren't perfect for aiming at a small, moving target, I don't know what conditions would be!

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by doggin94it

Yeah! I mean sure, the guy had tossed in a canister of tear gas and was wearing body armor, but I'm sure a citizen with a gun would have been able to hit him in the head or through a seam in the body armor, and not accidentally shoot anyone else in the chaos. After all, if those conditions aren't perfect for aiming at a small, moving target, I don't know what conditions would be!

Agreed.

The "Arm Everyone" Meme is not a legitimate solution here.

I am not convinced there IS a legitimate "would have stopped this" solution that would also have been acceptable in terms of the civil liberties of the other 350 million of us in the U.S.

[doggin94it]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Agreed.

The "Arm Everyone" Meme is not a legitimate solution here.

I am not convinced there IS a legitimate "would have stopped this" solution that would also have been acceptable in terms of the civil liberties of the other 350 million of us in the U.S.

And that's the problem. People always think there's some solution that can solve all the problems of the world. If only we'd done X, Y would never have happened.

Real life doesn't work that way. Do X, and instead of Y you don't just get "not Y", you also get A, B, C, and D. The question isn't "do we want crazy people to be able to purchase guns legally" - it is "how do we balance the need to prevent crazy people from purchasing weapons they use to kill innocents against the need to allow legal gun ownership for the vastly greater number of non-crazy people"?

That's a much harder question to answer - and it's why the majority of the time you'll end up with shouting camps on either extreme ("ban all guns!"/"from my cold, dead hands!") who don't even bother trying to do it.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by doggin94it

And that's the problem. People always think there's some solution that can solve all the problems of the world. If only we'd done X, Y would never have happened.

Real life doesn't work that way. Do X, and instead of Y you don't just get "not Y", you also get A, B, C, and D. The question isn't "do we want crazy people to be able to purchase guns legally" - it is "how do we balance the need to prevent crazy people from purchasing weapons they use to kill innocents against the need to allow legal gun ownership for the vastly greater number of non-crazy people"?

That's a much harder question to answer - and it's why the majority of the time you'll end up with shouting camps on either extreme ("ban all guns!"/"from my cold, dead hands!") who don't even bother trying to do it.

Agreed.

I am constantly reminded that a lack of guns never stopped those in the middle east who wished to engage in violence. They simply built bombs.

In our own nation, we have no shortage of serial-stabbers, serial-rapists, serial-beaters, or even "Vehicle-as-means-of-mass-murder". For every tool of death dealing we could ban, like guns, there are literally hundreds more awaiting potential use, some with far graver potential lethality (chemicals/biologicals/bombs).

In an odd way, the common availabillity of guns may ever inadvertantly serve as a barrier to more mass-death-causing vehicles for the truly crazy. A gun is easy, building a bomb of chemical event is much harder, less obvious. The law of unintended consequences could (not for sure fo course) result in a worse situation, where those who desire to kill do so in far worse ways to far more, like blowing up something or the like.

We must be wary of all possible outcomes of change we seek. Today guns, and tomorrw a guy steals a fully loaded gasoline truck and drives it into the theatre instead.....you just don't know.

[DeanPatsFan]

Originally Posted by doggin94it

I'm sure a citizen with a gun would have been able to hit him in the head or through a seam in the body armor, and not accidentally shoot anyone else in the chaos. After all, if those conditions aren't perfect for aiming at a small, moving target, I don't know what conditions would be!

Actually a citizen with a semi automatic pistol holding a 14-15 round clip could very easily have shot him in the head and ended the massacre...

[Jetworks]

Originally Posted by doggin94it

Yeah! I mean sure, the guy had tossed in a canister of tear gas and was wearing body armor, but I'm sure a citizen with a gun would have been able to hit him in the head or through a seam in the body armor, and not accidentally shoot anyone else in the chaos. After all, if those conditions aren't perfect for aiming at a small, moving target, I don't know what conditions would be!

Originally Posted by Warfish

Agreed.

The "Arm Everyone" Meme is not a legitimate solution here.

I am not convinced there IS a legitimate "would have stopped this" solution that would also have been acceptable in terms of the civil liberties of the other 350 million of us in the U.S.

This.

Originally Posted by DeanPatsFan

Actually a citizen with a semi automatic pistol holding a 14-15 round clip could very easily have shot him in the head and ended the massacre...

LOL! Guys with tactical training (such as myself) would have found this guy to be a difficult target, let alone a "citizen with a semi-automatic". Your sight is impaired by both the darkness of the movie theater coupled with the constantly changing light conditions of what is going on in the movie, PLUS you're being inundated with the soundtrack, screams and gunfire in an enclosed space. Not exactly favorable conditions for a precision shot.

Also, anyone with an iota of tactical training (aside from maybe SEALs) is trained to shoot center mass, not the head. Aiming for the head in target practice conditions your muscle memory to do the same thing IRL, and IRL you're faced with what I outlined above, against a fluid, moving target. Sorry, but most guys miss that shot, especially "citizens with semi-automatics".

And another thing, citizens shouldn't have 15 round clips. In NY, they don't, at least not legally. Hell, I'm LEO and when I retire permanently even I'm not allowed to have them.

[DeanPatsFan]

Originally Posted by Jetworks

This.



LOL! Guys with tactical training (such as myself) would have found this guy to be a difficult target, let alone a "citizen with a semi-automatic". Your sight is impaired by both the darkness of the movie theater coupled with the constantly changing light conditions of what is going on in the movie, PLUS you're being inundated with the soundtrack, screams and gunfire in an enclosed space. Not exactly favorable conditions for a precision shot.

Also, anyone with an iota of tactical training (aside from maybe SEALs) is trained to shoot center mass, not the head. Aiming for the head in target practice conditions your muscle memory to do the same thing IRL, and IRL you're faced with what I outlined above, against a fluid, moving target. Sorry, but most guys miss that shot, especially "citizens with semi-automatics".

And another thing, citizens shouldn't have 15 round clips. In NY, they don't, at least not legally. Hell, I'm LEO and when I retire permanently even I'm not allowed to have them.

You have no idea what the conditions were like at the theater, unless you were there. If you are unarmed and hear gun shots, you are going to run away. It's only natural. If you are armed with a semi automatic pistol and actually go and target shoot a lot, first thing you do is pull out your weapon and prepare to use it. I don't gave a rat's ass about the gun laws in NY. I don't live there. Where I live it is legal to have a 15 round clip in your weapon. Fifteen in the clip plus one in the chamber... That's 16 shots. I target practice a lot. If I were at that theater and am carrying... I like my chances a whole lot better than anyone there unarmed with absolutely no way to defend themselves....

Yes you are trained to aim for center mass, but if you are 20-30 feet from the guy with 16 rounds of ammo in a semi automatic pistol and can't hit him in the head, give it up. You have no business carrying a gun around....

[Jetdawgg]

No way to stop a random nut job.....Him knowing that no one else has a gun makes a major difference. He is not concerned with being fired upon by the patrons

[Jetworks]

Originally Posted by DeanPatsFan

You have no idea what the conditions were like at the theater, unless you were there. If you are unarmed and hear gun shots, you are going to run away. It's only natural. If you are armed with a semi automatic pistol and actually go and target shoot a lot, first thing you do is pull out your weapon and prepare to use it. I don't gave a rat's ass about the gun laws in NY. I don't live there. Where I live it is legal to have a 15 round clip in your weapon. Fifteen in the clip plus one in the chamber... That's 16 shots. I target practice a lot. If I were at that theater and am carrying... I like my chances a whole lot better than anyone there unarmed with absolutely no way to defend themselves....

Yes you are trained to aim for center mass, but if you are 20-30 feet from the guy with 16 rounds of ammo in a semi automatic pistol and can't hit him in the head, give it up. You have no business carrying a gun around....

I'll give this one more try and then gracefully bow out. I do know the conditions; they were more or less exactly as I described them. The perp waited until the first high action shooting sequence to launch his attack, which means there was a lot going on, visually and audibly. Last time I checked, movie theaters are pretty loud, pretty dark and the screens put off flickering light. Add in the screaming people (presumed, granted, but c'mon) and you have what I laid out. There have already been reports of the police requesting that the movie be turned off (which means it was still going when they arrived). Oh! And the smoke!!! How'd I forget that?!?! But, I wasn't there. Still, that doesn't stop you from stating that you'd drop the guy with a shot to the ol' noggin.

You are talking about target shooting in controlled circumstances. I am talking about shooting a living, moving target that is shooting back, in the conditions I described, with your adrenaline ramping up big time. There's no comparison between the two. And hitting a melon at that distance isn't an automatic even on the tactical range, let alone IRL.

I'm an old-school LEO, I still have a .38, but I got the 9 anyway. Joke was, what's the point of 16 if you can't hit it with 6? You are talking with bravado and little in the way of experience. Stop while you're ahead. Or don't, I couldn't care less.

[Jungle Shift Jet]

Originally Posted by Jetworks

I'll give this one more try and then gracefully bow out. I do know the conditions; they were more or less exactly as I described them. The perp waited until the first high action shooting sequence to launch his attack, which means there was a lot going on, visually and audibly. Last time I checked, movie theaters are pretty loud, pretty dark and the screens put off flickering light. Add in the screaming people (presumed, granted, but c'mon) and you have what I laid out. There have already been reports of the police requesting that the movie be turned off (which means it was still going when they arrived). Oh! And the smoke!!! How'd I forget that?!?! But, I wasn't there. Still, that doesn't stop you from stating that you'd drop the guy with a shot to the ol' noggin.

You are talking about target shooting in controlled circumstances. I am talking about shooting a living, moving target that is shooting back, in the conditions I described, with your adrenaline ramping up big time. There's no comparison between the two. And hitting a melon at that distance isn't an automatic even on the tactical range, let alone IRL.

I'm an old-school LEO, I still have a .38, but I got the 9 anyway. Joke was, what's the point of 16 if you can't hit it with 6? You are talking with bravado and little in the way of experience. Stop while your'e ahead.

oh ohs....