Shooting

[DeanPatsFan]

Originally Posted by Jetworks

So, because he agrees with what I say and disagrees with you he's a kiss-ass? Really?

Yes... But more than that, he's the forum know it all, and the funny part is, when it comes to guns, he doesn't know sh*t... Probably has never fired one in his life... wouldn't know a water pistol from a 6.7 Jap....

Originally Posted by Jetworks

FTR, I am retired. I have shot: 5 calibers of pistol, 3 types of shotgun, 3 types of rifle and 6 SMGs.

FTR I've shot everything from a black powder muzzleloader to a 1928 Winchester 32 Special ... Winchester 30-30 ... .308...30.06...6.7 Jap ...AR 15....40 S&W...45....44 magnum....38 Special.. every gauge of shot gun 410...20...16...12...10...etc... But hey.. I don't know sh*t about guns.. Just a fanboi...Ask the omnipotent know it all Warfish...

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by Jetworks

But (and I know you'll appreciate this), I CAN"T HELP MYSELF!!!!

Indeed. No doubt about that.

Originally Posted by gunnails

It's not a waste of time.....to simply dismiss his point of view is counter productive to the whole idea of a political discussion, as is calling him a fanboi and you the Pro (that part is just you being mean spirited

1st, he is obviously a shooter hobbyist, not a professional LEO. If he was a LEO, he'd have said so by now. By definition he's not a pro at tactical combat in real life situations nor trained as such. He's a range monkey. Good for him.
2nd, he is full of braggadocio about how he "could have stopped" this shooter, and is 100% full of ****. He's Marky Mark on 9/11 and equally worthy of scorn.
3rd, he IS a fanboi, it's rather obvious. Even to the point where he has to show off his "cred" by listing all the big scary guns he has fired once in his life, as if that had any bearing on the discussion at hand.
4th, at no point have I said I am a pro with guns, combat or tactical situations. I'm absolutely not.
5th, he is pushing a VERY specific political agenda. Ignoring that core portion of his viewpoint is ignorant.

End of the day, Dean is a longtime vet here at JI Poli-Sci, he can defend himself more than capably from the likes of me, and when/if he wishes, he can tell me to **** myself sideways if he likes. I won't think less of him for it.

But even as a strong supporter of the 2nd and gun ownership, I reject wholesale his de-facto "if everyone was armed" or "If I was there with my big ol' handgan" arguments regarding this event not happening as it did.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by DeanPatsFan

You're so full of sh*t, the toilet's jealous...

Shooter fanboi? In your world civilians aren't as good of a marksman as LEOS?
LMFAO..... Get your nose out of Jetwork's ass and wipe off your chin.

Jetworks was/is? a LEO.. Great for him but I'd bet I've shot a heel of a lot more rounds in my life from a hell of a lot more rifles/pistols than he ever will..

So you're a range monkey and gun fanboi civ who thinks firing a few rounds makes him a tactical combat specialist.

I bet you read Guns and Ammo too, and that you consider that part ofyour resume of expertise.

Got it.

For the record Dean, it's not the "marksman" portion I'm questioning. Yes, a civ could be a better marksman than one particular LEO.

It's the situational tactical combat under fire in a dark crowded theatre full of innocents while a gun in body armor with an automatic rifle is firing at you that I question a range monkey like yourself being "the solution" to.

I am sure you are an excellent shot......in full broad daylight......on a range bench.....with time to aim......and no distraction......and a scope.......and nobody standing in the way of your targets or running through your field of vision....and no one firing back at you. I bet in that situation, you may even be all you claim, a "Top Shot" (I love that show, ever watch it?)

My doubts center on a civ range shooter in an incredably confused and difficult tacticial situation with live rounds being lobbed at him in the dark in a crowd.

By all mean, if you have experience in THAT situation, let us know.

If not, while potentially an all-world taregt shooter, thats not the same as live firing in combat in a crowd.

[DeanPatsFan]

Originally Posted by Warfish

So you're a range monkey and gun fanboi civ who thinks firing a few rounds makes him a tactical combat specialist.

I bet you read Guns and Ammo too, and that you consider that part ofyour resume of expertise.

Got it.

For the record Dean, it's not the "marksman" portion I'm questioning. Yes, a civ could be a better marksman than one particular LEO.

It's the situational tactical combat under fire in a dark crowded theatre full of innocents while a gun in body armor with an automatic rifle is firing at you that I question a range monkey like yourself being "the solution" to.

I am sure you are an excellent shot......in full broad daylight......on a range bench.....with time to aim......and no distraction......and a scope.......and nobody standing in the way of your targets or running through your field of vision....and no one firing back at you. I bet in that situation, you may even be all you claim, a "Top Shot" (I love that show, ever watch it?)

My doubts center on a civ range shooter in an incredably confused and difficult tacticial situation with live rounds being lobbed at him in the dark in a crowd.

By all mean, if you have experience in THAT situation, let us know.

If not, while potentially an all-world taregt shooter, thats not the same as live firing in combat in a crowd.

All I'm saying is, given the right situation, a person (myself included) carrying a concealed weapon in that theater that night might have prevented some of the deaths/injuries by taking this madman out....

Ridicule if you'd like but I stand by what I said....

[palmetto defender]

Originally Posted by Warfish

So you're a range monkey and gun fanboi civ who thinks firing a few rounds makes him a tactical combat specialist.

I bet you read Guns and Ammo too, and that you consider that part ofyour resume of expertise.

Got it.

For the record Dean, it's not the "marksman" portion I'm questioning. Yes, a civ could be a better marksman than one particular LEO.

It's the situational tactical combat under fire in a dark crowded theatre full of innocents while a gun in body armor with an automatic rifle is firing at you that I question a range monkey like yourself being "the solution" to.

I am sure you are an excellent shot......in full broad daylight......on a range bench.....with time to aim......and no distraction......and a scope.......and nobody standing in the way of your targets or running through your field of vision....and no one firing back at you. I bet in that situation, you may even be all you claim, a "Top Shot" (I love that show, ever watch it?)

My doubts center on a civ range shooter in an incredably confused and difficult tacticial situation with live rounds being lobbed at him in the dark in a crowd.

By all mean, if you have experience in THAT situation, let us know.

If not, while potentially an all-world taregt shooter, thats not the same as live firing in combat in a crowd.

Plus there is the element of tear gas and/or smoke grenades being deployed.
Depending on the size of the theater either can add a great deal to confusion. Having been exposed to tear gas in a controlled situation, I can attest to the fact that it is debilitating. And I knew it was coming.

It's the old "fog of battle" concept. If you do not know something is about to occur, you are not as prepared. Or prepared at all.
Of course, looking at this from a business perspective as I like to do, this could be a new industry. Have professional trained snipers at every venue placed strategically. Theaters, ball games, plays, concerts. Have one sniper for every 400 or so attendees. Lots of snipers at a Jets game.

[Jetworks]

Originally Posted by DeanPatsFan

All I'm saying is, given the right situation, a person (myself included) carrying a concealed weapon in that theater that night might have prevented some of the deaths/injuries by taking this madman out....

Ridicule if you'd like but I stand by what I said....

See, but that's the thing, you aren't standing by what you said and what you said at first is what I and others took issue with. Initially you stated "a citizen with a semi automatic pistol holding a 14-15 round clip could very easily have shot him in the head and ended the massacre...", which is a far cry from what you have said above. In fact, the first part of what I bolded is really the thing I had the biggest issue with, that the situation did not in fact lend itself to being handled in such a straightforward manner as you asserted, even for a professional. We knew that from the get-go of the reports. Maybe you didn't, I don't know.

So yea, maybe you could have ended this thing Dean. I'm willing to concede that you are probably a better shot than me as well. But I can guarantee you that if you and I found ourselves on a tactical course, I'd probably beat you so bad that you'd (figuratively) cry.

[DeanPatsFan]

Originally Posted by Jetworks

Initially you stated "a citizen with a semi automatic pistol holding a 14-15 round clip could very easily have shot him in the head and ended the massacre...

That was in response to Doggin, a know it all that wouldn't know a firing pin from a shell casing, knowing that a civilian carrying a concealed weapon could kill this guy by head shot or piercing his body armor was beyond the realm of possibility... And I still stand by what I originally posted. A civilian who is a skilled marksman could very easily have killed this guy with a shot to the head but.... the circumstances would have to have been right..

Originally Posted by Jetworks

But I can guarantee you that if you and I found ourselves on a tactical course, I'd probably beat you so bad that you'd (figuratively) cry.

That's your expertise so I won't argue with you there....

[Jungle Shift Jet]

Originally Posted by DeanPatsFan

That was in response to Doggin, a know it all that wouldn't know a firing pin from a shell casing, knowing that a civilian carrying a concealed weapon could kill this guy by head shot or piercing his body armor was beyond the realm of possibility... And I still stand by what I originally posted. A civilian who is a skilled marksman could very easily have killed this guy with a shot to the head but.... the circumstances would have to have been right..






That's your expertise so I won't argue with you there....

I'd bet the ranch on you.
No empathy training, the other guy's arm's shot, plus he looks European.

Tactics are nothing but Polish breath mints.

[doggin94it]

Originally Posted by DeanPatsFan

That was in response to Doggin, a know it all that wouldn't know a firing pin from a shell casing, knowing that a civilian carrying a concealed weapon could kill this guy by head shot or piercing his body armor was beyond the realm of possibility... And I still stand by what I originally posted. A civilian who is a skilled marksman could very easily have killed this guy with a shot to the head but.... the circumstances would have to have been right..

Aww, did I get your undies in a twist? Here's a tissue:




BTW, here's what I said:

Originally Posted by doggin94it

Yeah! I mean sure, the guy had tossed in a canister of tear gas and was wearing body armor, but I'm sure a citizen with a gun would have been able to hit him in the head or through a seam in the body armor, and not accidentally shoot anyone else in the chaos. After all, if those conditions aren't perfect for aiming at a small, moving target, I don't know what conditions would be!

In response to:

Originally Posted by Jetdawgg

Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive. Who is the idiot that made the place a 'Gun Free zone'? That is what made the place a turkey shoot

Since you've now conceded that "having the people in there have guns" wouldn't have necessarily helped at all, barring one of them being an expert marksman with tactical training armed with a desert eagle . . .

you're actually agreeing with me.

(Please refer back to tissue picture as the feelings of disgust and regret wash over you at that thought)

[doggin94it]

Originally Posted by Jungle Shift Jet

I'd bet the ranch on you.
No empathy training, the other guy's arm's shot, plus he looks European.

Tactics are nothing but Polish breath mints.

That was pretty damn funny

[parafly]

Originally Posted by palmetto defender

Of course, looking at this from a business perspective as I like to do, this could be a new industry. Have professional trained snipers at every venue placed strategically. Theaters, ball games, plays, concerts. Have one sniper for every 400 or so attendees. Lots of snipers at a Jets game.

Interesting strategy. Very similar to having an armed federal marshal on all commercial flights.

If made a federal requirement, it would be very costly in terms of funds, resources, and liberty in general. Personally, it's a little too police state for my liking.

[palmetto defender]

Originally Posted by parafly

Interesting strategy. Very similar to having an armed federal marshal on all commercial flights.

If made a federal requirement, it would be very costly in terms of funds, resources, and liberty in general. Personally, it's a little too police state for my liking.

I was just being my usual humorous self.
In reality, metal detectors at large venues is the way things may really be going.

[Jetworks]

Originally Posted by DeanPatsFan

And I still stand by what I originally posted. A civilian who is a skilled marksman could very easily have killed this guy with a shot to the head but.... the circumstances would have to have been right..

That's your prerogative, I can't refute it beyond your qualifier at the end; one which I completely agree with, regardless of who is doing the shooting.

Originally Posted by Jungle Shift Jet

I'd bet the ranch on you.
No empathy training, the other guy's arm's shot, plus he looks European.

Tactics are nothing but Polish breath mints.

Never had empathy training, my arm doesn't do any of the decision making on the course and so far I've only received confirmation of the last one from fay Asian men.

I never got the impression you were Asian...

[gunnails]

I heard on the radio that gun sales in CO are up about 50% from last week, ammo is flying off the shelves.

[PlumberKhan]

Originally Posted by gunnails

I heard on the radio that gun sales in CO are up about 50% from last week, ammo is flying off the shelves.

pew


pew pew pew


that'll solve everything

[parafly]

Originally Posted by gunnails

I heard on the radio that gun sales in CO are up about 50% from last week, ammo is flying off the shelves.

I read it this morning as well. The statistic is actually a 43% increase in state approved background checks for gun purchases from Friday to Sunday after the shooting compared to the same time period during the previous week.

Is this due to safety concerns? Fear of a change in state gun laws? Both?

[gunnails]

Originally Posted by parafly

I read it this morning as well. The statistic is actually a 43% increase in state approved background checks for gun purchases from Friday to Sunday after the shooting compared to the same time period during the previous week.

Is this due to safety concerns? Fear of a change in state gun laws? Both?

================================================== =

I think it is both, some may have thought about making a purchase in tha past and the theater shooting has motivated them, others may feel that gun restrictions are in store for the future and want to get one before they miss out on the opportunity.

Regardless the increase is do to fear.

[PlumberKhan]

Originally Posted by parafly

Is this due to safety concerns? Fear of a change in state gun laws? Both?

Plain fear.

America was built upon fear.

Fear is what drives us.

Fear is what makes us who we are.

[piney]

Here is what I don't get...

I do not advocate gun control as a solution to situations like this...but why the hell would someone need to buy tear gas?

We have some gun enthusiasts here...do you own tear gas?

[DeanPatsFan]

Originally Posted by piney

We have some gun enthusiasts here...do you own tear gas?

No.