Copernicus: Where do you stand on this?

[doggin94it]

By resisting almost any change aimed at improving our public schools, teachers unions have become a ripe target for reformers across the ideological spectrum. Even Hollywood, famously sympathetic to organized labor, has turned on unions with the documentary "Waiting for 'Superman'" (2010) and a feature film, "Won't Back Down," to be released later this year. But perhaps most damaging to the unions' credibility is their position on sexual misconduct involving teachers and students in New York schools, which is even causing union members to begin to lose faith.


In the last five years in New York City, 97 tenured teachers or school employees have been charged by the Department of Education with sexual misconduct. Among the charges substantiated by the city's special commissioner of investigation—that is, found to have sufficient merit that an arbitrator's full examination was justified—in the 2011-12 school year:
• An assistant principal at a Brooklyn high school made explicit sexual remarks to three different girls, including asking one of them if she would perform oral sex on him.
• A teacher in Queens had a sexual relationship with a 13-year old girl and sent her inappropriate messages through email and Facebook.


If this kind of behavior were happening in any adult workplace in America, there would be zero tolerance. Yet our public school children are defenseless.


Here's why. Under current New York law, an accusation is first vetted by an independent investigator. (In New York City, that's the special commissioner of investigation; elsewhere in the state, it can be an independent law firm or the local school superintendent.) Then the case goes before an employment arbitrator. The local teachers union and school district together choose the arbitrators, who in turn are paid up to $1,400 per day. And therein lies the problem.



For many arbitrators, their livelihood depends on pleasing the unions (whether the United Federation of Teachers in New York City, or other local unions). And the unions—believing that they are helping the cause of teachers by being weak on sexual predators—prefer suspensions and fines, and not dismissal, for teachers charged with inappropriate sexual conduct. The effects of this policy are mounting.




One example: An arbitrator in 2007 found that teacher Alexis Grullon had victimized young girls with repeated hugging, "incidental though not accidental contact with one student's breast" and "sexually suggestive remarks." The teacher had denied all these charges. In the end the arbitrator found him "unrepentant," yet punished him with only a six-month suspension.


Another example from 2007: Teacher William Scharbach was found to have inappropriately touched and held young boys. "Respondent's actions at best give the appearance of impropriety and at worst suggest pedophilia," wrote the arbitrator—before giving the teacher only a reprimand. The teacher didn't deny the touching but denied that it was inappropriate.


Then there was teacher Steven Ostrin, who in 2010 was found to have asked a young girl to give him a striptease, harassed students by text, and engaged in sexual banter. The arbitrator in his case concluded that since the teacher hadn't actually solicited sex from students, the charges—all of which the teacher denied—warranted only a suspension.


Michael Loeb, a middle school teacher in the Bronx and UFT member, calls this a "horrible situation," telling me "if you keep these people in the classroom, you are demeaning our profession."


Parents I spoke with described their tremendous fear about what is happening in the classroom. Maria Elena Rivera says her 14-year-old daughter was stalked by one of her Brooklyn high school teachers (who resigned from his position before the Department of Education decided whether to send the case to arbitration). Today her daughter is in counseling, says Ms. Rivera, and doesn't trust anyone: "It so messed her up. I can't protect her."


Local media have begun to get the word out, yet the stories come and go with trifling consequences or accountability. New York City's schools chancellor and districts statewide must have the power to fire sexual predators—and the final say cannot be that of an arbitrator with incentives to lessen the punishment.


Fortunately, state Sen. Stephen Saland has proposed legislation in Albany to do just this, removing arbitrators' final say while still giving teachers due process and the opportunity to appeal terminations in court. But the buck would stop with those officials in charge of our schools and tasked with protecting our kids: the chancellor in New York City, and school districts elsewhere in the state.


Mr. Saland's initiative has little chance of success without union support—which is hardly assured. "I don't understand how they think this could be a gray area," says Natalie Harrington, who teaches English at New Day Academy in the Bronx. "I worry that if the union goes to bat [against] this, it makes it seem like they will do anything to keep anyone in the classroom."


Michael Loeb still supports his union but says it "treats teachers like interchangeable widgets"—defending all teachers no matter what they have done.


The union has reached a moment of truth. With responsible legislation on the table, the right course of action is obvious. At stake is the safety of kids, the reputation of the unions, and the standing of every good and responsible teacher throughout the state.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...612049308.html

I'm curious as to your opinion. Should any teacher found guilty of sexual misconduct by the arbitrator be fired? Should it be left to the city's discretion? Or should the arbitrator have final say?

[palmetto defender]

Should they be fired? How about jailed.
Teachers themelves should be outraged at the conduct of their colleagues.
What person in any profession wants to be associated with animals.

But the teachers unions know best. You should also ask IJF. He is always upset about the poor teachers' plight.

[JetPotato]

Sexual misconduct buy teechers is a requirement of George W Bush and No Child Left Behind. Yous wuld know that if you non-professionuls werent wasting so much time attacking teechers. You shuld keep your mouths shut when it cumes to the saffety and well-being of your childrin.

All accusations of misconduct are fake and a result of attaks by the political elite who have no idea how hard it is to teach and resist the temptation of today's youth.

[Warfish]

Sexual Predator Teachers > Sexual Predator Priests

And it's not even close.

Is this news, really?

[AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite]

Silent.

[JetPotato]

Originally Posted by AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite

Silent.

Probably waiting for his union rep to get back to him with the appropriate response.

[southparkcpa]

In all fairness..... the problem with education is not as correlated with these VERY FEW as with the systemic way we educate. I am sure Copernicus detests this as much as all of us.

Sure..the unions are an issue but somebody signed that contract representing the taxpayer. The system is so broken that a local politician or school board member who has their eyes on their next political seat, will sign this contract simply to avoid bad publicity by the union.

Here in Charlotte...good private schools are almost an industry. Most of the movers and shakers dont use the public schools, thus those who can change things, dont. They have no dog in the fight.

heck..on LI, my sister just yanked her 2 daughters out of so called "good public schools".

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite

Silent.

He's probably not online today.

Lets try and be fair.

[AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite]

Originally Posted by Warfish

He's probably not online today.

Lets try and be fair.

I think JP is onto something

[Frequent Flyer]

Public school teacher beats the **** out of a kid, doesn't go to jail, doesn't get fired--- he gets some "training" and a transfer:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-suicidal.html

[brady's a catcher]

Originally Posted by palmetto defender

Should they be fired? How about jailed.
Teachers themelves should be outraged at the conduct of their colleagues.
What person in any profession wants to be associated with animals.

But the teachers unions know best. You should also ask IJF. He is always upset about the poor teachers' plight.

Right, why is LE not involved? Are these cases reported to the police and the police sit on their hands for some bizarre reason?

[PlumberKhan]

Originally Posted by Frequent Flyer

Public school teacher beats the **** out of a kid, doesn't go to jail, doesn't get fired--- he gets some "training" and a transfer:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-suicidal.html

Not surprising. The teacher was also the "wrestling" coach. Wrestling coaches and wrestlers tend to be the biggest pieces of sh*t in school.

[palmetto defender]

Originally Posted by PlumberKhan

Not surprising. The teacher was also the "wrestling" coach. Wrestling coaches and wrestlers tend to be the biggest pieces of sh*t in school.

Astounding. Am in agreement with you totally here.
Remember from HS that the wrestling coaches were arrogant jerks. And the wrestlers were mostly morons. Maybe it was all that cutting weight that did it. The dregs that nobody would want as friends. The girls hated wrestlers.

[CraigFL]

Originally Posted by palmetto defender

Astounding. Am in agreement with you totally here.
Remember from HS that the wrestling coaches were arrogant jerks. And the wrestlers were mostly morons. Maybe it was all that cutting weight that did it. The dregs that nobody would want as friends. The girls hated wrestlers.

I was a wrestler, never got into a fight, graduated with honors, and earn a 4 year scholarship based on academics. just saying.

[copernicus]

Hey guys, sorry but I havent been in the political forum for a week or so.

Thanks for posting Doggin it. Schools are a hot top and the issue of sexual misconduct is very much in the news. Those stories are disturbing and educators who are found guilty should be FIRED!

First, let me state that if a teacher crosses the line in a sexual way with a student then that teacher has no place in the classroom.There are cases like Sandusky and others that are 100% guilty and they make the front cover of every media publication as they should. These "educators" should be removed and if enough evidence is present they should be jailed.

Unfortunately, its never not as simple as that.

Where to start? So many layers.

Somewhere in the last 10 years the teacher's perception and role has changed dramatically. The political powers that make up educational philosophies seem to be way out in RIGHT field. Teachers are to act as facilitators rather than teach the actual subject. Its bizarre, the political elite treat students as if they are adults. There in lies much of the educational issues today. The students have way too much say. When you and I were kids, we earned the right to be heard. Not today. Even the kid with severe mental issues words seem to way more than the educators. It very much acts as a handcuff for teachers. Funny how educational policies are changed, teachers are forced to teach a certain way and if the student fails, its the teachers fault entirely, but no fault lies on the forced policy that many in the education world criticize. Also, no longer is the teacher's word respected but rather challenged. The students have more say. In most cases, the more extreme the case, the better chance, in the end, it is found that the child is lying. These cases never make the media, never find there way anywhere other than damaged reputation of the teacher and nothing done to the student or parents.

I would estimate that in my total of 210 students that I personally see in my classroom each day of the school year about 10% of those students are disturbed and in many cases it is there parents who have issues as well. I have and small percentage (again around 10%) of parents who are addicted to drugs, prostitutes, physically and sexually abusive to their kids, alcoholics, etc. My point is that when I step into the classroom, I am often dealing with a percentage of students that need a much different setting than regular education. In most cases, these are the students who harm others around them and make the most outrageous accusations about teachers. For example, last school year there were a few cases of female students giving oral sex to male students in back stair cases in my school. Think girls who give oral sex in middle school hallways are not disturbed? These are the same type of girls who will accuse a male or female teacher of something outrageous. Should a teacher be immediately fired after an accusation from students like this? Should teachers have no protection from disturbed students?

What do we do? Do we immediately fire a teacher if an accusation is made about them? Isnt this America where if a person is accused of something they are judged amongst their peers? I guess just not teachers

One of many examples, last year in my school a polular science teacher was taken out of the classroom by the FBI and thoroughly interviewed for sexual misconduct. Why? Unbeknown to him a facebook was set up by a fictitious student who claimed she was having sex with him! Other students names were mentioned and it became HUGE news across the school. His reputation is damaged and he had NOTHING to do with it! It is scary. Guess what happended to the student? NOTHING. How do you think the next group of teacher's in the upcoming school year feel about having this student in their classroom? Think it will affect their teaching style? You bet.

I am all for removing teachers from the classroom who are found guilty of sexual misbehavior. Unfortunately with a percentage of disturbed students and parents who make up lies in hopes of a big pay day it is not as simple as it appears. Add that presently, politicians, media, and the public are blaming teachers for everything and it becomes an unfair fight. If the politicians had there way they'd fire any and every experienced teacher. Imagine if all it took was a false allegation from a disturbed child who just wants attention?

[PlumberKhan]

Originally Posted by copernicus

Do we immediately fire a teacher if an accusation is made about them?

When they are caught on video assaulting a child and inciting the other students to do so as well?

Yup.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by PlumberKhan

When they are caught on video assaulting a child and inciting the other students to do so as well?

Yup.

Yes, of course, if the teacher is dead set guilty.

IMHO, the government and everyone trickling down refuse to admit the SERIOUS behavior issues that are happening in schools. In MOST cases it is disturbed children with serious issues who provoke altercations the happen between adult and child in the school setting.

It is much easier to blame the classroom teacher and label them with poor classroom management skills than provide the correct amount of resources to remove the serious behavior problems from each classroom so the teacher can teach and the students can learn

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by copernicus

IMHO, the government and everyone trickling down refuse to admit the SERIOUS behavior issues that are happening in schools. In MOST cases it is disturbed children with serious issues who provoke altercations the happen between adult and child in the school setting.

It is much easier to blame the classroom teacher and label them with poor classroom management skills than provide the correct amount of resources to remove the serious behavior problems from each classroom so the teacher can teach and the students can learn

TLDR: Blame the Victim. Teachers are Blameless.

What a suprise.

[acepepe]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Sexual Predator Teachers > Sexual Predator Priests

And it's not even close.

Is this news, really?

The (pedo) Priests need to unionize!!!I'm sure SEIU and the Obama administration will be glad to protect them for some "dues"

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by Warfish

TLDR: Blame the Victim. Teachers are Blameless.

What a suprise.

Again, teachers who are guilty should be fired and arrested.

Choose any neighborhood in NYC and spend some time in a school. Observe the criminally minded kids and how educators have to bend over backwards to support them at the expense of good kids who are there to learn. Kid spits in the teachers face, never on the news, just have to take it. That same kid accuses the teacher of physically restraining him as he pounds on an innocent kids face for no reason and the teacher is on the front page. Good luck if the teacher is white and the student is a minority.

Hundreds of accusations that are completely false with only the union to defend teachers. Yeah, they are the bad guys.

Its an awful way to work knowing that you really have little support once a false accusation is made.

Most hear a teacher is accused of sexual misconduct and immediately the teacher is guilty. Ten year olds in the school system get more support than teachers. Just like the government wants. More pressure from the public to get rid of experienced higher paid teachers the better. Politicians can cut the budget and move more big money to their friends. All the while blame the classroom teacher for poor classroom management.