JETS biggest issue ... By far ... LB

[SyracuseJet]

Originally Posted by Dunnie

You really think,so ? I don't know if we have viable starting talent behind them.

I think they'd be a whole helluva lot better in coverage at worst, and maybe even a push for run D. They lack experience, experience they won't get this year with Thomas, Pace, and Scott clogging up the starting roles.

[Dunnie]

Originally Posted by SyracuseJet

I think they'd be a whole helluva lot better in coverage at worst, and maybe even a push for run D. They lack experience, experience they won't get this year with Thomas, Pace, and Scott clogging up the starting roles.

Might be a hell of a lot more fun to watch too ... Guys flying to the ball etc.

[SyracuseJet]

Originally Posted by Dunnie

Might be a hell of a lot more fun to watch too ... Guys flying to the ball etc.

Too bad we won't find out until next year, barring injuries.

[patman]

Originally Posted by Dreamers

It is dead money if he plays or not. There is no point in keeping a guy just because he is already paid. Open the spot bring in younger talent. We save 4 mil more next year if we drop him now so it is worth it IMO. Look at the numbers. If he can't be a starter it doesn't make sense to keep him on the roster. Same with Scott. We can cut both and still not be in bad shape. As much as people don't want to here it that is truth. Either way that money is already dead if we keep them or not.

I don't think you understand how the cap works. The jets have about 6 mill in cap space right now, if they cut Scott it counts for almost 8 mill of cap room.
they actually will lose cap space, likewise with Pace.

[Dreamers]

Originally Posted by SyracuseJet

The issue with LB isn't lack of talent, it's the presence of 2 high priced guys past their prime blocking the way for others to get their chance.

I have to disagree. If we had a better option they would be starting over him or Thomas who isn't making a whole lot. I have been a big Pace supporter for years but he is done. The fact we still have him starting to me just means the depth is so weak we are just stuck with him. He is an edge blitz OLB that no longer has the speed to get to QBs. People are saying he is still a good run blocker? Just because that is all he can do now doesn't mean that gives him value. It just means our depth is so bad they can't even do that. We will get small balled to death because we have no one that can cover a TE for 5 yards. Ss can't play up front or your just asking for trouble. Look at what Pitts and Balt do. Their OLBs can cover, Blitz, and run block. They have guys like Jason Worilds, Upshaw and Sergio Kindle sitting the bench. We don't have anything close to that starting right now. OLB is a huge whole on both ends right now. Thomas is the best we have and that is just sad I am sorry.

[ChrisChrusher#40]

Bart Scott and Calvin Pace getting beat did discourage. Hopefully that'll clean up, and I bet it will.

That OL... it has too much talent in its prime to look that terrible. I mean, Sanchez AND Tebow were both rushed and it looked like last year all over again. They need time, especially Mark (at least Tebow can break some tackles and make people miss). I know it's preseason, but when some QBs can scratch their balls and blow kisses to their moms, dads, wives and kids before they throw, and ours look like scared chickens running around in circles, it's a bad thing.

[Dreamers]

Originally Posted by patman

I don't think you understand how the cap works. The jets have about 6 mill in cap space right now, if they cut Scott it counts for almost 8 mill of cap room.
they actually will lose cap space, likewise with Pace.

Yes I am aware but they have the cap room to cut either of them. Check the Cap page we are good. It is not an 8 mil hit it is only a 1.7 mil hit(Pace). We are already paying him the rest. We took about that letting Cotch go. We have a lot of cap room and by cutting him NOW we save anther 3 mil next year. The money adds up if he can't play better then what we have he is disposable. People saying we can't cut him because it would be too big a hit aren't getting the actual #s. If he is useless he shouldn't be taking up a roster spot period. So even if you say 6 mil in space you'd still be able to cut him and spend 1.5 on a replacement easy. Heck at worst with 6 mil -1.7 then we trade for player x make 3 mil(best case not naming names just hoping) you'd still have over 1 mil space with Smith(2mil who is likely not to make the team at this point) and a ton of players that are making over 500k that can open up some room if needed. We have 2 Ks either one save 540k if cut. That is worst case mind you we would still end up with around 4 mil in cap space to work with. You don't need a whole lot of room once the season starts. Unless your still holding onto the thought we are going to trade for a 6 mil a year player which I just don't see.

[Suffering]

Originally Posted by Dunnie

Pace , Scott, Thomas

They looked like 90 year old men chasing kids around. I never thought it was possible for these guy to actually look slower than last year.

I think I was wrong.

Reminds of the year Jones and Lewis finally had to hang them up. It was like watching paint dry.

[eaglenj]

Originally Posted by Dreamers

I have to disagree. If we had a better option they would be starting over him or Thomas who isn't making a whole lot. I have been a big Pace supporter for years but he is done. The fact we still have him starting to me just means the depth is so weak we are just stuck with him. He is an edge blitz OLB that no longer has the speed to get to QBs. People are saying he is still a good run blocker? Just because that is all he can do now doesn't mean that gives him value. It just means our depth is so bad they can't even do that. We will get small balled to death because we have no one that can cover a TE for 5 yards. Ss can't play up front or your just asking for trouble. Look at what Pitts and Balt do. Their OLBs can cover, Blitz, and run block. They have guys like Jason Worilds, Upshaw and Sergio Kindle sitting the bench. We don't have anything close to that starting right now. OLB is a huge whole on both ends right now. Thomas is the best we have and that is just sad I am sorry.

Really not trying to turn this into another awful thread, but seriously, do you have any idea what you are talking about?

James Harrison and Woodley HARDLY EVER or NEVER cover (harrison 5 career ints in 9 years and woodley 4 in 5 years). The steelers defense works because Farrior and Timmons, their ILBs are excellent in coverage.

For the last time, our defense does not need pace to cover anyone, that isn't his job. We need our ILBs to cover and that is the problem and why davis needs to start playing over bart

As far as depth and personnel, are you honestly saying sergio kindle is better then what we have. He has never played and has a fractured skull????? Jason Worldis, was a talented college player but has doing zero in the nfl. Now he is being brought along in their defense very slowly, which is a big part of the reason pitts is so successful, but the jets are doing the same exact thing.

Who knows what we have with sapp, maybin, davis and dowtin. But they are all young, fast and talented. If 2 of them make it as starters thats a great job.

[ColonelForbin]

Scott should have been cut, and the Oline should have been reworked.

[Dreamers]

Originally Posted by eaglenj

Really not trying to turn this into another awful thread, but seriously, do you have any idea what you are talking about?

James Harrison and Woodley HARDLY EVER or NEVER cover (harrison 5 career ints in 9 years and woodley 4 in 5 years). The steelers defense works because Farrior and Timmons, their ILBs are excellent in coverage.

For the last time, our defense does not need pace to cover anyone, that isn't his job. We need our ILBs to cover and that is the problem and why davis needs to start playing over bart

As far as depth and personnel, are you honestly saying sergio kindle is better then what we have. He has never played and has a fractured skull????? Jason Worldis, was a talented college player but has doing zero in the nfl. Now he is being brought along in their defense very slowly, which is a big part of the reason pitts is so successful, but the jets are doing the same exact thing.

Who knows what we have with sapp, maybin, davis and dowtin. But they are all young, fast and talented. If 2 of them make it as starters thats a great job.

Never got past that. Pretty false statement. I see Woodley out covering a lot and Harrison used to all the time. Not so much last year. I'm tired of hearing it is not the OLBs job that is BS. Other OLBs do it so that doesn't hold water. Yeah ILB cover the INSIDE but you still have that 5 yard buffer on the outside before the S and/or ILB enters. If a TE bee lines for the sideline your ILB or S are not going to catch him. I see it on every team but ours and I'm tired of hearing that is not their job. If they see a TE running right at them in a short pattern they need to pick that up not just go right by for a sack they aren't getting on a short pass. It is embarrassing. If you think otherwise go back and watch that 2nd Pats game. They just kept dumping it off right in front of our OLBs. Yeah part of that was Scott but most of it was on the OLBs missing the early assignment.

[srobjets]

Originally Posted by SyracuseJet

Well hopefully we play more 43/46 packages so we only need 3 quality LBs.

A 43 LB core of Pace(Thomas)/Harris/Davis wouldn't suck nearly as bad.

This makes them even more worse. In a 4/3 set the 3 line backers are responsable for more space. Slower LB's+more space= even more TE's & Rb's running all over the place. Release them (Scott, Pace, Thomas) let the young guys learn by b\playing. Oh yeah don't forget Harris can cove either.

[eaglenj]

Originally Posted by Dreamers

Never got past that. Pretty false statement. I see Woodley out covering a lot and Harrison used to all the time. Not so much last year. I'm tired of hearing it is not the OLBs job that is BS. Other OLBs do it so that doesn't hold water. Yeah ILB cover the INSIDE but you still have that 5 yard buffer on the outside before the S and/or ILB enters. If a TE bee lines for the sideline your ILB or S are not going to catch him. I see it on every team but ours and I'm tired of hearing that is not their job. If they see a TE running right at them in a short pattern they need to pick that up not just go right by for a sack they aren't getting on a short pass. It is embarrassing. If you think otherwise go back and watch that 2nd Pats game. They just kept dumping it off right in front of our OLBs. Yeah part of that was Scott but most of it was on the OLBs missing the early assignment.

So OLBs have a read and react assignment? If a TE runs at them they need to decide on the fly if they are going to rush or drop?

[Dreamers]

Originally Posted by eaglenj

So OLBs have a read and react assignment? If a TE runs at them they need to decide on the fly if they are going to rush or drop?

Most every position has a read and react responsibility. If your on a hard blitz and they call a running play do you just let the RB run right by you? Well maybe if you Babin. If your ILB are being worn out by short outside TE and RB plays all day don't tell me no one should help them out. The best players are not one trick ponies. They are the ones who can read and react to what is happening on the field. Now don't get me wrong, guys like Aldon Smith and Robert Mathis are great for what they do but the best Ds all have guys that adjust on the fly. Why do you think Clay Matthews was out showing off his cover skills last year? He knows what it takes to win and does it. That is the position some times. You think the Giants normally have Chase Blackburn coving TEs? He may have won them that SB doing something some would say he shouldn't be doing. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/1...hero-blackburn

In other words, if Chase Blackburn is making a play, it's usually going to be on a running back, or on Brady himself -- on a scramble. Not a pass.

And damn sure not a pass 50 yards down the field.

What was Chase Blackburn doing 50 yards off the line of scrimmage in the fourth quarter of Super Bowl XLVI? Well, he was doing his job. On this play, he was given the assignment of tracking Patriots tight end Rob Gronkowski, and this play went haywire.

Now where where the Ss on that play?

[eaglenj]

So an OLB who is lined up on the LOS and a TE who is also on the line, the OLB should read him? How would you do that exactly? If you asked them to read the TE, and then decide to rush, it would be a ridiculous waste of talent. That is not the way a 3-4 defense is played. If you want to talk about a 4-3 weak side LB, deciding to rush or cover a TE then what you are saying makes sense. Can woodley and harrison cover, yes. Do they cover 5-10% of the time, yes. That does NOT mean they regularly are in coverage.

And if you are talking about bryan thomas' role in our defense then that also makes sense. But we do not run a traditional 3-4 and pace does not have TE coverage responsibility 85% of the time.

Will maybin be asked to occasionally cover, absolutely, but again...it will be 10% of the time or less.

[eaglenj]

Oh, and please don't forget, chase blackburn plays MLB in a 4-3, so that argument makes no sense.

[FijiJet]

Jets LBs need to be overhauled. Maybin, DD, Sapp need to start seeing some major playing time this year then the Jets cut bait with the overpaid fossils bext year.

Good thing we have such a (potentially) great DL. Wee need them to overwhelm the OL early and often, bludgeon the QB and RB to conceal the LBs weaknesses.

[Dreamers]

Originally Posted by eaglenj

So an OLB who is lined up on the LOS and a TE who is also on the line, the OLB should read him? How would you do that exactly? If you asked them to read the TE, and then decide to rush, it would be a ridiculous waste of talent. That is not the way a 3-4 defense is played. If you want to talk about a 4-3 weak side LB, deciding to rush or cover a TE then what you are saying makes sense. Can woodley and harrison cover, yes. Do they cover 5-10% of the time, yes. That does NOT mean they regularly are in coverage.

And if you are talking about bryan thomas' role in our defense then that also makes sense. But we do not run a traditional 3-4 and pace does not have TE coverage responsibility 85% of the time.

Will maybin be asked to occasionally cover, absolutely, but again...it will be 10% of the time or less.

So because it is only 5-10% they shouldn't care about it is what you are saying? That is like saying you only throw deep 5-10% of the time so don't worry about it. You have been watching Shotty way too long. You seem to at least understand it is part of their job that is step one. You also seem to realize Thomas is the only guy we have that can do it. So your smarter then some here. I'm not talking covering WR just extra coverage for when they see 2 TE sets or to help out vs speedy RBs. It is a huge area of weakness that was taken advantage of.

In Oakland Bush and Boss lead the team in yards vs us. NE game one we gave up 100 yards to TEs and RB. Gronk owned us in game 2 we gave up over 150 yards to TEs alone. Ray Rice and Ed Dickerson both lead Balt with 109 receiving vs us. Lance Ball and Dante Rosario had 44 yards combined almost 50% of Denvers production. Celek 156!! Witten 110 with anther 70 by RBs and other TEs. In SD both TE lead the game with a combined 99 yards and also 26 to Mathews. Scott Chandler in Buff had 9 of his 38 catches vs us thank god buff didn't have a good TE. Washington both Davis 99 Helu 42 lead the team that day. Yeah OK our DB are shutdown but that is a lot of yards by most of the TEs and RBs we faced last year. I'll say close to 40% of all the passing yards we did give up came from RBs or TEs. Part of that was bad Ss but a lot of it was just lack of LB coverage on quick passes that turned into big plays. That is a huge 5-10% if you ask me.

[Dreamers]

Originally Posted by eaglenj

Oh, and please don't forget, chase blackburn plays MLB in a 4-3, so that argument makes no sense.

It does make sense because he doesn't cover. His assignments are what your saying Pace is doing. Different D but a great example of how even if you think they don't do it it doesn't mean it isn't useful to have. Do you think ANY of our LB could have made that play? I dont.

[eaglenj]

FIrst off, I appreciate the discussion....as for once on this board its actually about football, and I understand what you are talking about conceptually.

However you have to separate RBs and TEs.

We have been notoriously bad vs screen passes and that is because we do not have sideline to sideline LBs, which I will concede, but only 1 OLB can defend a screen, that falls more on the ILBs yet again.

As for as the TE....what LBs in the entire league cover Gronk/hernandez? That has been on our safeties, 100%