Copernicus: Where do you stand on this?

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by copernicus

Again, teachers who are guilty should be fired and arrested.

Compare with:

IMHO, the government and everyone trickling down refuse to admit the SERIOUS behavior issues that are happening in schools. In MOST cases it is disturbed children.....

Save the Union Propaganda Copernicus.

Your profession has more documented and prosecuted cases of pedophiles/child sexual predators than any other in America.

Your effort to blame the children for being "disturbed" "liars" is vile and utterly contemptable. There is apparently no depth you will not sink to to defend your Union, is there.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Compare with:



Save the Union Propaganda Copernicus.

Your profession has more documented and prosecuted cases of pedophiles/child sexual predators than any other in America.

Your effort to blame the children for being "disturbed" "liars" is vile and utterly contemptable. There is apparently no depth you will not sink to to defend your Union, is there.

I'd love to talk intelligently about this but your hatred towards unions and workers rights just doesnt allow you to see the serious issues that teachers are facing.

I agree 100% that teachers who cross the line with abuse towards children should be fired and arrested.

Unfortunately you underestimate the amount of frivolous accusation that occur yearly from disturbed students, students going through changes, students who are craving attention, students who are being encouraged by their parents in hopes of a big law suit, and some who are just plain bored.

[Frequent Flyer]

Originally Posted by copernicus

I agree 100% that teachers who cross the line with abuse towards children should be fired and arrested.

Unfortunately you underestimate the amount of frivolous accusation that occur yearly from disturbed students

What does one have to do with the other?

[PlumberKhan]

Teachers union = Police union...

[freestater]

Originally Posted by copernicus

Most hear a teacher is accused of sexual misconduct and immediately the teacher is guilty. Ten year olds in the school system get more support than teachers. Just like the government wants.

Are you alluding that they should not?

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by copernicus

I'd love to talk intelligently about this but....

Intelligent discourse is impossible with a person who'd claim "most" child sex abuse by teachers is caused be "disturbed children".

your hatred towards unions and workers rights

I don't hate either. I hate what they have become, like our Government, they are bloated, self-serving, overcompensated and corrupt, totoally having lost sight of why the exist and who they serve.

Fromt he vital role Unions played in the past equalizing the playing field, they've become profit engines of corruption and economic destruction, serving the few, while bloating their compensation to unaffordabllity and overvaluation, forcing jobs to be moved to more reasonably prices alternatives. Want to know what causes oursourcing.....a line working grunt who makes $90,000 a year cash and another $50,000 a year in beenfits. Unsustainable.

Unfortunately you underestimate the amount of frivolous accusation

Not in the least. I know all too well what being the victim of false accusations feels like and the damge it does. But your attempts to shrug off responsabillity for the MANY crimes that do occur onto the children the way you did is pathetic. When one says "most" teacher-student sex events are the fault of "disturbed children", there is no room for understanding of such a disgusting, child-blaming and self-serving remark.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by freestater

Are you alluding that they should not?

I meant to write respect. When a ten year old's word with a knife in his school bag is believed by the media and higher ups in the system before the teacher there is an issue.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by Frequent Flyer

What does one have to do with the other?

The teacher's union is a necessity. It is the ONLY protection a teacher has from a system that would rather turn their heads to OBVIOUS behavior issues from the students.

Two years ago at my school a teacher was walking to her car when a known troubled African American started running at her and yelling "they are going to kill me help, help!" Now this kid was known trouble and disrespectful to EVERY teacher and adult he came across each day. The teacher didnt hesitate and told him to jump into her car for safety. Before she could blink an Asian gang with baseball bats were bashing her entire car trying to get at him. She acted as a hero, and probably saved his life. She took her own life into her hands to protect a boy who who was mean and disrespectful to her numerous times in the past. This did not make the news, mayor Bloomberg or the NYC Schools Chancellor did not reference her heroism in any way or form both privately or publicly. Guess who reimbursed her for the damage on the car? No one from the school or the system! Not the mayor, schools chancellor or principal. It wasnt until the teachers union stepped in to help her with the major damages to her car. The teacher also needed medical assistance and was a bit traumatized to say the least. No support offered at all from the school system. The message was go get the help on your own. Think the next teacher will act the same way next time a situation occurs like this knowing the system will turn their back on them?

If this same troubled African American boy or members of the Asian gang accused this teacher of any wrong doing, she be on the front page of the paper with most likely very little support from her principal and DEFINITELY no support from the mayor or NYC Schools Chancellor. There would be press conference after press conference from Mayor Bloomberg shouting about how the teacher should be removed from the classroom but it the awful union's fault.

Observe the next time a NYC police officer is accused of wrong doing. Initially, he is supported by the mayor ,Chief of Police, and police union heads. Often it is followed with "lets not jump to conclusions, we are doing a full investigation." Compare that to the next time a teacher's face is dragged through the media when a child makes an accusation. Crickets, no support from the schools chancellor and mayor. They are hoping the teacher is guilty so they can continue their quest to convince the public get rid of tenure (teacher's union) and fire veteran teachers.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by copernicus

The teacher's union is a necessity. It is the ONLY protection a teacher has from a system.......

Actually, teachers, like all of us, enjoy the benefits of hundreds of thousands of pages of labor protection legislation.

Apparently your opinion is that the Law that protects all of us aren't good enough for you.

Two years ago at my school a teacher was walking to her car when a known troubled African American started running at her and yelling "they are going to kill me help, help!" Now this kid was known trouble and disrespectful to EVERY teacher and adult he came across each day. The teacher didnt hesitate and told him to jump into her car for safety. Before she could blink an Asian gang with baseball bats were bashing her entire car trying to get at him. She acted as a hero, and probably saved his life. She took her own life into her hands to protect a boy who who was mean and disrespectful to her numerous times in the past. This did not make the news, mayor Bloomberg or the NYC Schools Chancellor did not reference her heroism in any way or form both privately or publicly. Guess who reimbursed her for the damage on the car? No one from the school or the system! Not the mayor, schools chancellor or principal.

This tale says so much about you.

The women acted heroicly, aye.

But the expectation of a refund? That somehow society owed her for it finanacially? How ghastly arrogant and self-important. There is no "Hero Fund" to pay people who do the right thing. The onlt people who owed her where theg assailants and their parents/guardians.

I assume you realize that should these events happen to any of us, many of us would do exactly the same thing, and none of us would be refunded either. We'd have the same recourse she did....sue the parants or file criminal charges/complaints.

It is this "you owe us, we're special" attitude that is so annoying. I'll say it again, Teachers are not special, they're different, they're just another group of job doers, just like the rest of us, and you do not deserve not warrant special treatement above what we all get.

[Frequent Flyer]

Originally Posted by copernicus

I meant to write respect. When a ten year old's word with a knife in his school bag is believed by the media and higher ups in the system before the teacher there is an issue.

You make it sound like a warzone. If it's that bad, and I don't doubt it is, why don't you just walk away? I wouldn't stay in a job like that.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by Frequent Flyer

You make it sound like a warzone. If it's that bad, and I don't doubt it is, why don't you just walk away? I wouldn't stay in a job like that.

Quit? Quit on the students who need it the most? Eventually they become adults and are thrust into our society. Then what? They become criminals. I hope in my small way each day that I help.

Again, most students arent like the ones I've mentioned, but there are enough to destroy a lesson every day. I dont work in what would be considered a bad area. Its you basic neighborhood in the five boroughs. I cant imagine the stories a teacher from East NY or the South Bronx have. Again, politicians will turn a blind eye to the issues. The sad part is that the people who are in charge do not necessarily care to fix it. The next group of politicians will come in and change just for the sake of making it their own. New textbooks and educational philosophies that must be followed by the teacher. Under NCLB the term "corporal punishment" is peppered throughout it. It basically states that just about any form of punishment can be brought up and reviewed as being "too harsh." Many teachers in my school alone have had corporal punishment allegations brought up on them for simply asking a student to stand in the hallway until he can behave. Most times, the student refuses. Then what? Call the principal? Do that once and now the principal is pissed and he/she can claim you cant control your class. Its no win. Cant deny any student of there education, even if they are violent to others. Its an impossible way to work. Then to come home spend hours grading your own students work, the work that politicians push on principals for teachers to do, and if there is time, turn on the news and listen to politicians scream about how bad teachers are........

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Actually, teachers, like all of us, enjoy the benefits of hundreds of thousands of pages of labor protection legislation.

Apparently your opinion is that the Law that protects all of us aren't good enough for you.



This tale says so much about you.

The women acted heroicly, aye.

But the expectation of a refund? That somehow society owed her for it finanacially? How ghastly arrogant and self-important. There is no "Hero Fund" to pay people who do the right thing. The onlt people who owed her where theg assailants and their parents/guardians.

I assume you realize that should these events happen to any of us, many of us would do exactly the same thing, and none of us would be refunded either. We'd have the same recourse she did....sue the parants or file criminal charges/complaints.

It is this "you owe us, we're special" attitude that is so annoying. I'll say it again, Teachers are not special, they're different, they're just another group of job doers, just like the rest of us, and you do not deserve not warrant special treatement above what we all get.

If you would let an over-sized thuggish looking black teen into your car not knowing the full situation then more power to you. JMO, I dont think that most would.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Intelligent discourse is impossible with a person who'd claim "most" child sex abuse by teachers is caused be "disturbed children"..

Just a flat out twist on words. Are you really this insane? There are cases of child abuse in schools. Those who are guilty should be arrested and lose their jobs. PERIOD!

It makes it very difficult because MOST, (NOT ALL) of the allegations that are made by a small percentage of disturbed students are lies. You are underestimating that if you have one student out of a thousand who would lie about a serious allegation like sexual abuse it can ruin a dedicated teacher's career and make ALL TEACHERS LOOK BAD. When you factor in that the average student goes through mental and hormonal changes during the middle school years you can see how these allegation can be more frequent. When middle school students are going through changes it sometimes affects there actions and their perception of reality. On the average day of any school year there is a teacher verbally abused at my school by students who claim the teachers are racist, stupid, ugly, mean etc. Students will drop the race card at the drop of a hat. Fail a test that they didnt prepare for, teacher is racist. Reprimand a student from one group and they will claim that the teacher never reprimands the other group (race, gender, ect). It can be the most outrageous claim without any evidence and the teacher is immediately guilty until proven innocent. Its what happens when the teachers get no support from those in charge of the system.

Again, clearly, there are cases of child abuse in schools and those adults should be removed. Sadly, there is no support (other than the union) to protect for the many false allegations that teachers will have brought up against them throughout their careers.

[palmetto defender]

Originally Posted by CraigFL

I was a wrestler, never got into a fight, graduated with honors, and earn a 4 year scholarship based on academics. just saying.

I was generalizing obviously. Most of the wrestlers I knew were sociopaths. BUT, one guy at my HS did go on to the Olympics (although not as a wrestler).
Versus other sports, wrestlers were strange. Of course, some feel football players were nuts. As recently as a couple years ago I was labelled a "hoodlum" by some of my college non football classmates. 40+ years removed. LOL

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by copernicus

I dont think that most would.

Obviously.

You think Teachers are simply a superior form of human being. It's written all over every word you post on the topic.

Originally Posted by copernicus

Just a flat out twist on words.

No twist required, sad as that is.

I'll requote you, to remind you what you said on the topic of child sex abuse in schools.

In MOST cases it is disturbed children with serious issues who provoke altercations the happen between adult and child in the school setting.

Unfortunately you underestimate the amount of frivolous accusation that occur yearly from disturbed students

Hundreds of accusations that are completely false with only the union to defend teachers.

MOST, (NOT ALL) of the allegations that are made by a small percentage of disturbed students are lies.

Or to get off sexual predators and demonize victims, as you've done repeatedly in this thread, describing most oi fthese victims as "liars" and "disturbed", and supporting a Union who will defend a child sex predator in every way possible, including tearing down and destroying the victim in order to protect the perpetrator.

If anyone said this about say, rape of adult women, their would be a firestorm against you.

Yet here we have a teacher, who for all intents and purposes, is dividing the rampant child sex abuse in schools into "legitimate child sex abuse" and "most cases, which are child liars who are disturbed and have disturbed parents too".

Perhaps Copernicus, you need to have a serious dose of self-evaluation and reflection. Your employment cannot be worth so much to you as to warrant such sadistic blame-the-victim-first Union thuggery.

[PatriotReign]

I think coper getting a bad rap here. Is he stridently pro teacher's union? Yup but that does not make every observation he makes inaccurate by default. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but anyone who has not seen how some inner city kids react to any type of authority simply have no basis of knowledge as to what it is like.

Of course teachers found guilty of any sex offense should be terminated and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. As far as "violent" teachers I have gone to calls where an angry parent demanded action because Mr. Jones put a hand "on my (17 year old) baby" without mentioning that the teacher had to forcibly wrestle her baby off another student. I've seen countless variations of that over the years.

This debate doesn't have to be all or nothing as both sides make valid respective points. There are some POS teachers but it's been my experience that the teachers aren't the problem.

[Frequent Flyer]

Originally Posted by copernicus

The teacher's union is a necessity. It is the ONLY protection a teacher has from a system that would rather turn their heads to OBVIOUS behavior issues from the students.

Two years ago at my school a teacher was walking to her car when a known troubled African American started running at her and yelling "they are going to kill me help, help!" Now this kid was known trouble and disrespectful to EVERY teacher and adult he came across each day. The teacher didnt hesitate and told him to jump into her car for safety. Before she could blink an Asian gang with baseball bats were bashing her entire car trying to get at him. She acted as a hero, and probably saved his life. She took her own life into her hands to protect a boy who who was mean and disrespectful to her numerous times in the past. This did not make the news, mayor Bloomberg or the NYC Schools Chancellor did not reference her heroism in any way or form both privately or publicly. Guess who reimbursed her for the damage on the car? No one from the school or the system! Not the mayor, schools chancellor or principal. It wasnt until the teachers union stepped in to help her with the major damages to her car. The teacher also needed medical assistance and was a bit traumatized to say the least. No support offered at all from the school system. The message was go get the help on your own. Think the next teacher will act the same way next time a situation occurs like this knowing the system will turn their back on them?

If this same troubled African American boy or members of the Asian gang accused this teacher of any wrong doing, she be on the front page of the paper with most likely very little support from her principal and DEFINITELY no support from the mayor or NYC Schools Chancellor. There would be press conference after press conference from Mayor Bloomberg shouting about how the teacher should be removed from the classroom but it the awful union's fault.

Observe the next time a NYC police officer is accused of wrong doing. Initially, he is supported by the mayor ,Chief of Police, and police union heads. Often it is followed with "lets not jump to conclusions, we are doing a full investigation." Compare that to the next time a teacher's face is dragged through the media when a child makes an accusation. Crickets, no support from the schools chancellor and mayor. They are hoping the teacher is guilty so they can continue their quest to convince the public get rid of tenure (teacher's union) and fire veteran teachers.

You didn't answer the question.

Let's try another one:

Do you know what a "moral compass" is?

[Frequent Flyer]

Originally Posted by copernicus

If you would let an over-sized thuggish looking black teen into your car not knowing the full situation then more power to you. JMO, I dont think that most would.

Like I said before, why stay in a job like that?

[PatriotReign]

Originally Posted by Frequent Flyer

Like I said before, why stay in a job like that?

Because every job has its downside and/or risks. That's like asking a firefighter or cop why they stay in a job that could kill them. They enjoy the profession despite the potential risk.

[isired]

The problem with teachers is, how do you stop the good, long term teachers with higher salaries from getting replaced with new teachers with lower salaries when the budget gets tighter? This happens even now, it's what some of you guys are missing when it comes to teachers and public education, where every dollar is spent knowing there will be no direct financial return. I've seen it happen in schools my wife has worked at with teachers that are just short of tenure - they make more money than rookies, so when the budget axe swings, their skills in the classroom are not the deciding factor: if you've got 30 classrooms to fill and 28 teachers and you're at your budget, you've got to lose higher paid teachers and replace them with lower paid rookies. You can't have 2 classrooms full of kids with no teachers all day. So the quality of education suffers - not the teachers, who are still young enough to go elsewhere and make more money, see greater opportunities for advancement in the suburbs or private schools (the two that I know of are in great poisons now, one running a private list grade school and the other because principal of a suburban high school - they probably look back at it as the best favor they were ever done, but again, the students were hurt, neither of the rookies are still at the school, they were not half as good as the teachers that left, and it took several cracks to replace them). And this is at a very good NYC public high school, a school that gets more than 8000 applicants for a hundred slots every year. If/when the teachers that get cut are older, though, add they'll pretty much me able to count on getting cut once their salary reaches a certain point, and they'll be less attractive to fill the positions these teachers fill now.