Andrew Brandt: Will MNF outcome break stalemate?

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Nope, they're the talent. They're worth what the Owners are willing to pay, within the Salary Cap.



Nope. The old Refs everyone is now ungering for was almost as laughably bad in making calls week to week. People just forget that now.

Where the new Refs are weak is that the players, the talent, is taking advantage of their lack of experience, and choosing to break and bend every rule.

The players are 100% at fault. They are choosing to break the rules en masse, fight and scuffle en masse, and generally cheat the **** out of the game. The Refs, unsuprisingly, can't keep up.....but neither could the old ones if the players acted, en masse, as they are right now.



More experinced, yes, clearly. Better.......not so much. Funny how many bad calls get forgotten when it suits an argument.

Give the scabs 6 weeks, they'll be just as good as the old crews tbh.



Yup, we NEVER had that before.





Inexperience, and the most legtimate criticism. They unfamiliar with the results of penalties and how to apply them.




Nope, never had that before either, amirite? Pay no mind to the Vinny T. rushing TD that ended 8 yards before the goalline.

Warfish... you can make an argument that the replacement officials could someday be as good as the old ones. To imply that they haven't been LAUGHABLY bad for the first 7 weeks (pre season) is ludicrous. Are you watching all the games? There is a bad spot or mis-interpretation of the rules or having to re-do kicks coming back from commercials because they had to be informed they messed up like every game. It's comical. And this is coming from someone who defended the replacements in the pre-season. It has gotten completely out of control. Using Vinny's (one yard short) example to justify the bad spots every game this year is weak. I agree the old ref's are suspect. The replacements so far are abysmal.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by Carlton

Warfish... you can make an argument that the replacement officials could someday be as good as the old ones. To imply that they haven't been LAUGHABLY bad for the first 7 weeks (pre season) is ludicrous. Are you watching all the games?

Laughably HYPED as bad.

I seem to recall the past few years a very similar level fo "wow, these guys suck" in the early season. Pretty much EVERY year that talk happens, matter of fact.

What I see, I will repeat, is PLAYERS choosing to break every rule, fight far more than normal, hit illegally left and right, and pretty much act like 3 year olds when Mommy went out and the babysitter is in.

Yet the Players, those bastions of "safety first", get not a shred of criticism for their frat party behavior?

Again, I think two things are in effect, hype (the burning spotlight of attention and aggression), and a mass-forgetting that at this time last year, without all the hype, people were still trashing the vet refs and their calls left and right in every thread for every game.

I hope they settle at this point, just to end all the whining and player-abuse-of-rules-and-fighting, which is really where I think the game looks bush league currently.

In eveitable "The Vet Refs Suck Patriot Cock, the Pats Got All the Calls" thread inbound in what, a few weeks?

[isired]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Nope, they're the talent. They're worth what the Owners are willing to pay, within the Salary Cap.

Oh, I'm not saying they're worth what the players are worth. But they're closer to the Director than the Grip.

Originally Posted by Warfish

Nope. The old Refs everyone is now ungering for was almost as laughably bad in making calls week to week. People just forget that now.

LOL. You're kidding. The pauses after every other play, the bad spots 2 out of 3 times, the 4-5 blown PI, PF and reception calls a game, etc., etc., etc. - this was common? I mean, people are letting the bad ball spots slide for most plays, they're letting the interruptions slide (though several times a game it affects the play, as it gives the D a chance to adjust to a new/diff O package), we've all accepted that the officiating is going to be markedly worse.

Originally Posted by Warfish

Where the new Refs are weak is that the players, the talent, is taking advantage of their lack of experience, and choosing to break and bend every rule.

Seriously? I see them starting to be afraid to make contact when breaking up a pass, pulling up, even saw a guy last night help the GB receiver up while looking all around, as if to say "see, i'm a good guy, i'm trying to help him, not hurt him!" - though he made almost no contact.

Originally Posted by Warfish

The players are 100% at fault. They are choosing to break the rules en masse, fight and scuffle en masse, and generally cheat the **** out of the game. The Refs, unsuprisingly, can't keep up.....but neither could the old ones if the players acted, en masse, as they are right now.

what the replacement refs can't keep up with is the speed of the game. Several times a game you hear them call the wrong team or player on a penalty or possession. Last night, an earlier call they had the right call, but the wrong side of the ball - they corrected it. But they get confused in this way more than anything else. Which is why I'm certain the official last night was signaling a Green Bay touchdown. It's the only logical explanation, given the context.

Originally Posted by Warfish

More experinced, yes, clearly. Better.......not so much. Funny how many bad calls get forgotten when it suits an argument.

There are always going to be bad calls, but the quantity and the degree are drastically higher. And it could be fixed.

Originally Posted by Warfish

Give the scabs 6 weeks, they'll be just as good as the old crews tbh.

Some, sure. Maybe not 6 weeks (after all, some of these guys were fired from the Lingerie Bowl), but eventually. But not all, not even most IMO. I think there are certain skills to seeing and analyzing things quickly and correctly.

Originally Posted by Warfish

Yup, we NEVER had that before.

Not nearly as often. You seriously believe this? or are you just busting my chops?

Originally Posted by Warfish

Inexperience, and the most legtimate criticism. They unfamiliar with the results of penalties and how to apply them.

I think it's more than that, but even if it isn't, the NFL better wake up and put a plan B in place permanently.

Originally Posted by Warfish

Nope, never had that before either, amirite? Pay no mind to the Vinny T. rushing TD that ended 8 yards before the goalline.

Yup, that's 1 in, what, 15 years? I bet you could come up with a couple more over that time frame, then you'd have as many as any given 5-minute span in most of these games.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by isired

Not nearly as often. You seriously believe this? or are you just busting my chops?

Generally speaking, yes, I believe it. The difference between now and most seasons week 4 is attention (i.e. hype and publicity), and player abuse/fighting/rule breaking, and the admittedly long delays the scabby refs are taking to make every call (inexperience).

Again, PI calls, spots? We get an enedless array of threads on these every week of every season. The difference is with replacement refs, it's far easier to complain about it for everyone, fans, coaches and players.

Here is the real test, why has Bellichek not been suspended by the NFL for putting his hands on an Official? Thats so unacceptable it's offensive, a breach of conduct the old Refs would never have to deal with normally.

Whose fault is that, the Refs (whose call was correct there btw), or Bellicheck for putting his hands on a Ref to try and manhandle/intimidate what he wants? Think the players aren't doing the same?

[johnnysd]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Laughably HYPED as bad.

I seem to recall the past few years a very similar level fo "wow, these guys suck" in the early season. Pretty much EVERY year that talk happens, matter of fact.

What I see, I will repeat, is PLAYERS choosing to break every rule, fight far more than normal, hit illegally left and right, and pretty much act like 3 year olds when Mommy went out and the babysitter is in.

Yet the Players, those bastions of "safety first", get not a shred of criticism for their frat party behavior?

Again, I think two things are in effect, hype (the burning spotlight of attention and aggression), and a mass-forgetting that at this time last year, without all the hype, people were still trashing the vet refs and their calls left and right in every thread for every game.

I hope they settle at this point, just to end all the whining and player-abuse-of-rules-and-fighting, which is really where I think the game looks bush league currently.

In eveitable "The Vet Refs Suck Patriot Cock, the Pats Got All the Calls" thread inbound in what, a few weeks?

I agree with this 100%. People forget how "bad" the real refs are, and most of the issues we are seeing are caused by teams trying to take advantage of them. They made a bad call it seems in Seattle, but for the most part they are making good calls.

Even ESPN who was definitely pounding their fist on the table repeatedly on how bad the refs are admitted almost every time that it was a proper call.

The regular refs make bad calls too, and people forget that the call last night was uphejd in part BY a regular official.

Part of the problem with the negotiations with the refs is that they want TENURE at the position regardless of how bad they are at officiating. I think that is the crux of the entire matter. The owners proposals have not been that bad to the officials.

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Laughably HYPED as bad.

I seem to recall the past few years a very similar level fo "wow, these guys suck" in the early season. Pretty much EVERY year that talk happens, matter of fact.

What I see, I will repeat, is PLAYERS choosing to break every rule, fight far more than normal, hit illegally left and right, and pretty much act like 3 year olds when Mommy went out and the babysitter is in.

Yet the Players, those bastions of "safety first", get not a shred of criticism for their frat party behavior?

Again, I think two things are in effect, hype (the burning spotlight of attention and aggression), and a mass-forgetting that at this time last year, without all the hype, people were still trashing the vet refs and their calls left and right in every thread for every game.

I hope they settle at this point, just to end all the whining and player-abuse-of-rules-and-fighting, which is really where I think the game looks bush league currently.

In eveitable "The Vet Refs Suck Patriot Cock, the Pats Got All the Calls" thread inbound in what, a few weeks?

No one is arguing the old refs were great. If you truly believe these refs aren't noticeably worse then you are not watching the games closely. HYPED my ass. I don't need anyone to tell me how bad it's been. I partially agree on your players taking advantage theory. That's obviously going on. What you don't seem to see is that each consecutive week the scuffles and illegal stuff is getting worse. Why? Because the refs missed so many horrific chop blocks/PIs/illegal hits that players are taking it into their own hands. I bet there were more scuffles in week three than the first two combined. So yes.. it's half that they don't respect the new refs as being replacements, but it's also half that they are TERRIBLE. Every sport has people who criticize refs, but if you can't admit these guys aren't remotely qualified for the job you're insane. Going from division 2 and jr college reffing straight to the pros will do that to you. Why wouldn't they be? But you think they can just walk in and be as good (as mediocre as that good was) as guys that have been doing it for 20 years at NFL speed and know all the rules inside and out. Ok.

Trashing the refs of last year and trashing the refs this year does not equate to equal performance just like hand picking one example of a bad spot a decade ago doesn't equate to the new refs spotting being no worse. It's a circus.

[isired]

Originally Posted by Warfish

What I see, I will repeat, is PLAYERS choosing to break every rule, fight far more than normal, hit illegally left and right, and pretty much act like 3 year olds when Mommy went out and the babysitter is in.

There were a few instances of this the past weekend, but I think it's partially a case of the whole system breaking down once law and order is a joke. It's really just building, as the refs blow calls and lose control the game. So I do think that will happen more often as we go further into the season like this.

BUT, TBH, by and large, I've seen roughing/PI/PF called when there was no roughing/PI/PF far more often than the opposite.

[isired]

Originally Posted by Carlton

No one is arguing the old refs were great. If you truly believe these refs aren't noticeably worse then you are not watching the games closely.

/THREAD

[isired]

Originally Posted by johnnysd

people forget that the call last night was uphejd in part BY a regular official.

TATE HAVING POSSESSION OF THE BALL WAS NOT UPHELD.
You have to stop repeating this. NOTHING regarding who had possession of the ball was upheld. What was upheld was that the ball did not touch the ground, and that the players were not out of bounds. And no one I've seen has disputed either of these facts.

[JB1089]

Originally Posted by isired

TATE HAVING POSSESSION OF THE BALL WAS NOT UPHELD.
You have to stop repeating this. NOTHING regarding who had possession of the ball was upheld. What was upheld was that the ball did not touch the ground, and that the players were not out of bounds. And no one I've seen has disputed either of these facts.

This.

Possession is not reviewable. That was over as soon as the call on the field was botched.