Copernicus: Where do you stand on this?

[doggin94it]

Originally Posted by copernicus

Teaching is unique because it is almost impossible to evaluate.

If teaching is impossible to evaluate, then all teachers should be paid minimum wage.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by doggin94it

If teaching is impossible to evaluate, then all teachers should be paid minimum wage.

Numerous former students who were terrible in the classroom both behavior wise and academically come back to the same school to thank the teachers years later. They claim that it was the teachers who made them successful and they often apologize for the way they had behaved as students. I have personally witnessed this year after year at my public school in nyc.

You cant evaluate teachers initially because in many cases it is not until years later where it pays off.

Society has to go back to trusting the professionals, the teachers......

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by copernicus

Society has to go back to trusting the professionals, the teachers......

If thats true, then should teachers go back to trusting the professional Government Administrators and Budget Analysts regarding afforadabillity, policy and evaluation of public servants? And the Professional Tax PAyers who (via the vote) have the final say over it all and pay all the bills?

Or are Teachers ALSO the experts of how to run a Government in all it's myriad complexity?

TLDR Coper, it basicly sounds like your positon on Public Education is:

1. Pay us anything and everything we ask for, we deserve it, you're lucky to have us.
2. Never Question anything about our Compensation.
3. Never Question Us. We too special to be judged or evaluated.
4. Hire More of Us Till We Say It's Enough, and Give us all the Job Security We Desire.
5. Absolutely no Competition or Alternative to us Should Be Allowed.
6. Teaching is alot like Being a Soldier in Vietnam, and Teachers should be Respected Equally.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by Warfish

If thats true, then should teachers go back to trusting the professional Government Administrators and Budget Analysts regarding afforadabillity, policy and evaluation of public servants? And the Professional Tax PAyers who (via the vote) have the final say over it all and pay all the bills?

Or are Teachers ALSO the experts of how to run a Government in all it's myriad complexity?

TLDR Coper, it basicly sounds like your positon on Public Education is:

1. Pay us anything and everything we ask for, we deserve it, you're lucky to have us.
2. Never Question anything about our Compensation.
3. Never Question Us. We too special to be judged or evaluated.
4. Hire More of Us Till We Say It's Enough, and Give us all the Job Security We Desire.
5. Absolutely no Competition or Alternative to us Should Be Allowed.
6. Teaching is alot like Being a Soldier in Vietnam, and Teachers should be Respected Equally.

ROFLMAO, trust the government with your kids education? With the corporate douche bags that currently run our politics? Every single politician leaves office with some dirt on them. How they stole, mislead, hurt, scammed, and hooked up others in the business world. Teachers,when they retire, not so much.

Trust the government?

BTW, there is competition, its called private schools. The ones that fund their own buildings, not like charter schools who use YOUR money to fund and sell their agenda.....

Do you realize how much of YOUR money is being spent to try and fire such a small amount of teachers that truly cant cut it?

This money is being spent to fire teachers so politicians can give it to their friends in the business world, not the kids!

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by copernicus

ROFLMAO, trust the government with your kids education? With the corporate douche bags that currently run our politics? Every single politician leaves office with some dirt on them. How they stole, mislead, hurt, scammed, and hooked up others in the business world. Teachers, not so much.

Trust the government?

BTW, there is competition, its called private schools. The ones that fund their own buildings, not like charter schools who use YOUR money to fund and sell their agenda.....

So TLDR (again), you don't deny that you DO want exactly the things I listed, and you DO NOT want Professional Governors or economists to Govern or control budgets for Teachers/Education, but you want Teachers to be in-effect a Rule of Law of their own, that gets whatever it demands, and runs Education however they want it run, with no oversight or taxpayer control.

In all seriousness, is there any other service the Government provides you feel should have the same treatement as teachers apparently should in yoru world?

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by Warfish

So TLDR (again), you don't deny that you DO want exactly the things I listed, and you DO NOT want Professional Governors or economists to Govern or control budgets for Teachers/Education, but you want Teachers to be in-effect a Rule of Law of their own, that gets whatever it demands, and runs Education however they want it run, with no oversight or taxpayer control.

In all seriousness, is there any other service the Government provides you feel should have the same treatement as teachers apparently should in yoru world?

No Child Left Behind set up GW Bush's corporate douche bags with tons of money leaving students and teachers in the dust. Set back education for years.

Yeah, leave it up to the politicians. Romney seems like he is a real caring person.........

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by copernicus

No Child Left Behind set up GW Bush's corporate douche bags.......

Ok, if you don't want to have an actual conversation, so be it.

[Trades]

Originally Posted by copernicus

No Child Left Behind set up GW Bush's corporate douche bags with tons of money leaving students and teachers in the dust. Set back education for years.

Yeah, leave it up to the politicians. Romney seems like he is a real caring person.........

The government isn't there to care. They aren't your mom, your wife or your dog. They are there to provide a framework for us to all live under and services such as foreign affairs and defense that are outlined in the constitution. All the extra stuff like infrastructure, welfare, etc is great if it is affordable.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Ok, if you don't want to have an actual conversation, so be it.

Im not asking for more money, pay me for what I do. I work every weekend of the school year. I work every afternoon grading and preparing full lessons for the next day. This is not part of my contract. Think this is a quick process? Try marking 245 home-works EVERY afternoon. Yes, in middle school the kids change classes. I have 7 classes with about 35 in each. When you get finished, then prepare lessons for the next day. Oh, by the way there is a new term, its called differentiated learning, it means I must have a specific lesson to meet the needs of EACH student. Think this is manageable? Makes sense? Cant use lessons from the year before, new policies each year prevent this. I am not compensated for this time. That money is not part of my teacher contract. I have one prep (40 min) per day to do this. Technechly I dont have to take home one minute of work. Doesnt work out that way.

I am not asking to be compensated for it. Just dont take anymore of it away.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by copernicus

I am not asking to be compensated for it. Just dont take anymore of it away.

I don't think we can make any progress at this point Copernicus.

All I will say, is that Teachers are a public service, just like any other. You serve us, at our pleasure, and as we wish it, prioritized (or not) as we see fit. Your compensation, and value, is what we, the taxpayers and voters, say it is and should be. Not a penny more, not a penny less.

It in my opinion that you have completely forgotten the relationship between your chosen profession, and the society of taxpayers and voters it exists purely to serve. And that you have completely misunderstood teh relation between the two.

In any event, I still remember when you were one of my absolute favorite football posters, pre-politics, and pre-Tebow. So on that basis alone, I wish you the best. But I don't think we have anywhere further to go on this discussion.

[doggin94it]

Originally Posted by copernicus

Numerous former students who were terrible in the classroom both behavior wise and academically come back to the same school to thank the teachers years later. They claim that it was the teachers who made them successful and they often apologize for the way they had behaved as students. I have personally witnessed this year after year at my public school in nyc.

You cant evaluate teachers initially because in many cases it is not until years later where it pays off.

Society has to go back to trusting the professionals, the teachers......

If there is no way to tell who is a good teacher or who is a bad teacher, then all teachers - experienced or inexperienced, highly educated or not - should be paid equally at the lowest wage the market will bear. After all, if there is no way to tell that an experienced teacher is better than an inexperienced teacher, why pay for experience? If there is no way to tell that a teacher with a masters' degree is better than one without, why pay more for the degree, or require it at all? If any bum off the street can, as far as anyone would be able to tell, do an identically good or bad job in the classroom, then teacher wages should be set at whatever price would be necessary to entice any bum off the street to teach - since there would be no discernable decline in the quality of teaching or education.

Of course, I don't agree with that. But if you insist that teachers cannot be evaluated, then you do.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by doggin94it

If there is no way to tell who is a good teacher or who is a bad teacher, then all teachers - experienced or inexperienced, highly educated or not - should be paid equally at the lowest wage the market will bear. After all, if there is no way to tell that an experienced teacher is better than an inexperienced teacher, why pay for experience? If there is no way to tell that a teacher with a masters' degree is better than one without, why pay more for the degree, or require it at all? If any bum off the street can, as far as anyone would be able to tell, do an identically good or bad job in the classroom, then teacher wages should be set at whatever price would be necessary to entice any bum off the street to teach - since there would be no discernable decline in the quality of teaching or education.

Of course, I don't agree with that. But if you insist that teachers cannot be evaluated, then you do.

I have been evaluated for every year of teaching, 15 in total. Most people dont realize this but teachers are evaluated every year multiple times. More times than cops, firemen, sanitation, etc. I have no problem whatsoever being evaluated by educators who are my superiors. Before corporate greed got their hands in on education, most principals were former teachers, not anymore. It shows in their leadership. Its a big secret, politicians are creating "principal academies" like the one mayor Bloomberg has. Its by invitation only, no teaching experience necessary. Nice, fat, cushy administrator jobs for unqualified educators who are friends of politicians. Shhhh, its part of where the money is being wasted.

I have a problem with teachers being scored by tests from companies that are directly connected to politicians. You know how they get fat? They make the tests extremely difficult (when teacher contacts and tenure is in the news), all the kids fail, teachers look like failures, and the kids need to get extra help from the same resources of the company that created the tests. It also puts pressure on the system to change so big business can "fix it" (LMAO). Scores go up when it is an election year and tests are made simple. Presently there are multiple ways to score these state exams. One score makes the teachers look incompetent, another makes the politician look like a genius. Its maddening that society is letting these crook politicians get away with it. Mayor Bloomberg fought to get these scores connected to teachers published in the NY POST. Why? To degrade all teachers and prove his agenda. He is a big business man, he smells MONEY! Its the only side of the story that's being told. Open up the paper and its the teachers fault, just look at the scores!

It is very sad to job that politicians are doing on people who are attacking teachers. Its all about breaking the union so big business can come in and truly railroad America's youth.

With all due respect, so many of you guys sound passionate and educated but you dont understand what is happening.

I am formally evaluated 6 times per year. My superiors words mean a lot to me and to most teachers. Since NCLB, the evaluation process for teachers has become money pit for corporations who are involved in testing, pre testing, and textbooks that line up exactly to the tests. If the general public really knew how much of YOUR TAX money was going directly into politician friend's pockets you'd be appalled. The fight is not against teachers my friends, its against the politicians who are acting scrupulously affecting YOUR children's education.

Anyone try to help their kids with math recently? Its called "new math." You know why your kid learns math so differently than you? SO YOU CANT HELP HIM and are forced to PAY for help to companies directly connected to the state exams.....

This is what's happening