Offensive Line Problems - Jets Insider.com Forums

rmeyer52 · 10-05-2012, 10:57 AM

From today's Wall Street Journal...

The performance of the Jets offensive line has reached new lows after a precipitous decline that began in 2011. Even worse, the former stars that led the unit to wide acclaim at the beginning of coach Rex Ryan's tenure are increasingly responsible for sinking it.

This year, the Jets' pass blocking ranks 22nd (of 32 teams) and its run blocking 31st, according to ProFootballFocus.com, which grades every play of each lineman based on his individual assignment, play result and game situation.

That run ranking this year is especially problematic considering Ryan's pledge to return his team to its ground-and-pound ways that led to consecutive appearances in the AFC championship game his first two seasons. In 2009, the Jets' run blocking ranked fifth, as did their pass blocking. In 2010, the line was even better, ranking fourth in run blocking and second when passing. But last year, the Jets ranked 12th in the former and 13th in the latter—middle-of-the-pack figures, much like their 8-8 season record.

The most obvious reason for the decline is personnel changes along the line, primarily the retirement of right tackle Damien Woody before the start of the 2011 season. ProFootballFocus graded his 2011 replacement, the since-departed Wayne Hunter, as one of the worst tackles in football. Austin Howard, this season's starter, hasn't fared much better.

But the Jets' two All-Pro linemen are performing nowhere near that level. Center Nick Mangold was graded the second-best center in the league in 2010 and 2011, but he ranks just 18th this year. Left tackle D'Brickashaw Ferguson has fallen even more, from a high of fourth in 2010 to 41st this year.

And in Ryan's first two seasons, even unheralded guard Brandon Moore was graded in the top 10 at his position. But now Moore is below average, too, ranking 38th among guards thus far this season.

adpz · 10-05-2012, 11:09 AM

It's hard to know how accurate these kind of deep stats are - but this is not - can't be - just a physical thing. There is no way that someone just loses their ability to play a position that badly.

I think the general decline has to do with coaching and, in a negative sense, either not working as unit or team. An optimist might say that that's just going on because of a new scheme, adjusting to it, etc. But the new scheme was supposed to be easier than the old one . . .

Who knows what is valid here - but I think this does show that the 'old' idea that you build a team from the lines is as valid as ever. I would happily take a dominant O and D line over any upgrade at the skill spots. Next to a QB, a great line is the next most important thing to make everyone else on the field look better.

eaglenj · 10-05-2012, 11:21 AM

Yes our line isnt playing well, but its far from all on them.

Sanchcez has been sacked 6 times....yet has 4 picks and 2 fumbles. For comparison, Rodgers line has really struggled allowing 16 sacks and yet he only has 3 picks and 0 fumbles. That is a monumental disparity, that the line cannot control.

Also while our run blocking is FAR from 2009-2010, are we really not opening holes for greene? Or is it more the fact that Rex has stayed with a RB who cant cut back, make defenders miss, and ends 75% of his runs by plowing straight into his own linemans back?

southside · 10-05-2012, 11:25 AM

I agree with the assessment.

Brick and Mangold aren't playing at a top level and it's because of the garbage playing next to them. It's not a coincidence. Faneca made them better. The Jets need a really good LG and those two will benefit greatly from such.

Or it could be that they both got big ass paydays the last two years and they stopped working as hard.... also not a coincidence.

augustiniak · 10-05-2012, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southside

I agree with the assessment.

Brick and Mangold aren't playing at a top level and it's because of the garbage playing next to them. It's not a coincidence. Faneca made them better. The Jets need a really good LG and those two will benefit greatly from such.

Or it could be that they both got big ass paydays the last two years and they stopped working as hard.... also not a coincidence.

i think the entire unit knows there's a huge talent void and whether anyone will admit it, there's a dropoff in effort. how many more years can the line be highly motivated to block for this crap?

DDNYjets · 10-05-2012, 11:32 AM

Moore has gotten older. He is a career overachiever. Can't knock on him too much other than I think he his role in the locker room mess last season has been overlooked.

Brick has always been soft and he had his best years with Faneca playing next to him. Got paid. Saw an interview with him on Jets.com where he was pleased with his performance and the team's performance last year claiming that going 8-8 is an accomplishment in this league. Wants to be a Hollywood director. Writing is on the wall.

Mangold was always slightly overrated IMO. Don't get me wrong, he was a great player but he too had his best years when he was playing alongside Faneca and Moore in his prime. He got paid and has been out of shape the past couple of years. Just look at pictures of him. He needs to go work out with his sister.

Harris was once the most underrated LB in the league. Got paid and got slow.

TheMo · 10-05-2012, 11:36 AM

This is my biggest issue with the general strategy of this organization. We fix a problem but rather than incorporating that into future strategy it seems like they go ADD and just forget how important it was. We fix the line in 2008 and then don't address it again until 2010. This is where having extra 4th-5th round picks help. Drafting trench guys there when you are already "good" is what allows OL/DL to continuously stay powerful. When you are good you don't have to worry about the misses that will inevitably come from that area of the draft. But when you hit on one of those you can plug them in as the line you fixed starts to show signs of erosion.

GreenWave · 10-05-2012, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDNYjets

Moore has gotten older. He is a career overachiever. Can't knock on him too much other than I think he his role in the locker room mess last season has been overlooked.

Brick has always been soft and he had his best years with Faneca playing next to him. Got paid. Saw an interview with him on Jets.com where he was pleased with his performance and the team's performance last year claiming that going 8-8 is an accomplishment in this league.

Mangold was always slightly overrated IMO. Don't get me wrong, he was a great player but he too had his best years when he was playing alongside Faneca and Moore in his prime. He got paid and has been out of shape the past couple of years. Just look at pictures of him. He needs to go work out with his sister.

Harris was once the most underrated LB in the league. Got paid and got slow.

+1 across the board. People will disagree (especially on Mangold), but I think you nailed all four players.

Bad combination of complacency, poor coaching and aging overachievers up front.

adoom · 10-05-2012, 11:37 AM

[QUOTE=rmeyer52;4632039]From today's Wall Street Journal...

The performance of the Jets offensive line has reached new lows after a precipitous decline that began in 2011. Even worse, the former stars that led the unit to wide acclaim at the beginning of coach Rex Ryan's tenure are increasingly responsible for sinking it.

This year, the Jets' pass blocking ranks 22nd (of 32 teams) and its run blocking 31st, according to ProFootballFocus.com, which grades every play of each lineman based on his individual assignment, play result and game situation.

That run ranking this year is especially problematic considering Ryan's pledge to return his team to its ground-and-pound ways that led to consecutive appearances in the AFC championship game his first two seasons. In 2009, the Jets' run blocking ranked fifth, as did their pass blocking. In 2010, the line was even better, ranking fourth in run blocking and second when passing. But last year, the Jets ranked 12th in the former and 13th in the latter—middle-of-the-pack figures, much like their 8-8 season record.

The most obvious reason for the decline is personnel changes along the line, primarily the retirement of right tackle Damien Woody before the start of the 2011 season. ProFootballFocus graded his 2011 replacement, the since-departed Wayne Hunter, as one of the worst tackles in football. Austin Howard, this season's starter, hasn't fared much better.

But the Jets' two All-Pro linemen are performing nowhere near that level. Center Nick Mangold was graded the second-best center in the league in 2010 and 2011, but he ranks just 18th this year. Left tackle D'Brickashaw Ferguson has fallen even more, from a high of fourth in 2010 to 41st this year.

And in Ryan's first two seasons, even unheralded guard Brandon Moore was graded in the top 10 at his position. But now Moore is below average, too, ranking 38th among guards thus far this season.

Didn't take a genius to see this!

TheMo · 10-05-2012, 11:40 AM

Also let it be known that this guy kinda cherry picked with the PFF stats. Prior to this past week Brick and Mangold were much higher. Both had really bad games against the 49ers. Not saying I disagree, but the guy picked the perfect time to "compare" years and show a stark contrast.

CTjetfan52 · 10-05-2012, 11:46 AM

The chain is as strong as its weakest link.

Slauson and Howard have altered the line chemistry and we have moved to a new O-line coach and a new scheme. The players are aging.

Hate to keep beating a dead horse but Rex and Tanny have really failed to
evaluate the team's talent accurately and make the necessary changes and upgrades. It was criminal to start the season with Wayne Hunter on our roster and be espousing a Ground and Pound philosophy without the personnel.

It's called HUBRIS:

Hubris ( /ˈhjuːbrɪs/), also hybris, from ancient Greek ὕβρις, means extreme pride or arrogance. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power.

The adjectival form of hubris is "hubristic".

JonEJet · 10-05-2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmeyer52

THANKS PATS FAN.....KEEP UP THESE GREAT THREADS

lageman4ever · 10-05-2012, 11:48 AM

I wonder about PFF ratings as well. I've never found out who exactly is doing these ratings - are they professional scouts, volunteer joe sixpacks watching the games, etc. But while the exact precision of these rankings may be in question, I think their gross ratings are likely correct.

For the Jets the PFF assessment on the decline of the OL play is consistent with what most of us have commented on JI. And that's especially true for our previous star performers like Mangold and DBrick.

This decline is a bit odd. Much of the OL has played together as a unit for a number of years now and that continuity generally leads to good play. And, except for Moore, all of the guys are in the prime of their careers age wise. Finally while the guys have had some injuries, nobody's had anything truly serious like an ACL tear. So the precipitous drop off is unusual.

Jet Blast · 10-05-2012, 11:58 AM

How the hell is D'Brick ranked 41st???

I know he has dropped off but that's ridiculous. There are 32 teams and this would mean that there are teams with backups better than him!

JETSJetsJetsJets · 10-05-2012, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet Blast

How the hell is D'Brick ranked 41st???

I know he has dropped off but that's ridiculous. There are 32 teams and this would mean that there are teams with backups better than him!

Probably includes LT and RT

TheMo · 10-05-2012, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JETSJetsJetsJets

Probably includes LT and RT

This. The rankings include RT and LT. Also one other thought to consider is that perhaps Brick and Mangold are better suited for zone blocking. Brick I think definitely is, he is athletic and not really a mauler. His pass blocking is fine cause that doesn't change, but in a man run blocking scheme I think it exacerbates his average run block power.

Boynton Beach Jets · 10-05-2012, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmeyer52

From today's Wall Street Journal...

The performance of the Jets offensive line has reached new lows after a precipitous decline that began in 2011. Even worse, the former stars that led the unit to wide acclaim at the beginning of coach Rex Ryan's tenure are increasingly responsible for sinking it.

This year, the Jets' pass blocking ranks 22nd (of 32 teams) and its run blocking 31st, according to ProFootballFocus.com, which grades every play of each lineman based on his individual assignment, play result and game situation.

That run ranking this year is especially problematic considering Ryan's pledge to return his team to its ground-and-pound ways that led to consecutive appearances in the AFC championship game his first two seasons. In 2009, the Jets' run blocking ranked fifth, as did their pass blocking. In 2010, the line was even better, ranking fourth in run blocking and second when passing. But last year, the Jets ranked 12th in the former and 13th in the latter—middle-of-the-pack figures, much like their 8-8 season record.

The most obvious reason for the decline is personnel changes along the line, primarily the retirement of right tackle Damien Woody before the start of the 2011 season. ProFootballFocus graded his 2011 replacement, the since-departed Wayne Hunter, as one of the worst tackles in football. Austin Howard, this season's starter, hasn't fared much better.

But the Jets' two All-Pro linemen are performing nowhere near that level. Center Nick Mangold was graded the second-best center in the league in 2010 and 2011, but he ranks just 18th this year. Left tackle D'Brickashaw Ferguson has fallen even more, from a high of fourth in 2010 to 41st this year.

And in Ryan's first two seasons, even unheralded guard Brandon Moore was graded in the top 10 at his position. But now Moore is below average, too, ranking 38th among guards thus far this season.

I am sure having a good running back like the Jets had in Thomas Jones and some weapons improve the stats. Stats are overrated in football its not baseball.

TheMo · 10-05-2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boynton Beach Jets

I am sure having a good running back like the Jets had in Thomas Jones and some weapons improve the stats. Stats are overrated in football its not baseball.

Well PFF is based off the play. They actually rewatch the tape and follow the player, not just the stats. Their method of grading is actually really interesting, worth a read if you have a minute to spare.

Run Jets Run · 10-05-2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMo

Well PFF is based off the play. They actually rewatch the tape and follow the player, not just the stats. Their method of grading is actually really interesting, worth a read if you have a minute to spare.

Agree PFF is a great website. They have tons of data, great for the football fan and even more so if your into fantasy football.

rmeyer52 · 10-05-2012, 01:34 PM

It's almost like trying to fix new leaks in a boat. As soon as you have one taken care of another one pops up. However if the Jets had a strategic plan someone should have noted that by the time they put all the pieces of the puzzle together some are going to be faded and need to be replaced.

10-05-2012, 10:57 AM	#1
rmeyer52 All League Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Simi Valley, California Posts: 2,709	Offensive Line Problems From today's Wall Street Journal... The performance of the Jets offensive line has reached new lows after a precipitous decline that began in 2011. Even worse, the former stars that led the unit to wide acclaim at the beginning of coach Rex Ryan's tenure are increasingly responsible for sinking it. This year, the Jets' pass blocking ranks 22nd (of 32 teams) and its run blocking 31st, according to ProFootballFocus.com, which grades every play of each lineman based on his individual assignment, play result and game situation. That run ranking this year is especially problematic considering Ryan's pledge to return his team to its ground-and-pound ways that led to consecutive appearances in the AFC championship game his first two seasons. In 2009, the Jets' run blocking ranked fifth, as did their pass blocking. In 2010, the line was even better, ranking fourth in run blocking and second when passing. But last year, the Jets ranked 12th in the former and 13th in the latter—middle-of-the-pack figures, much like their 8-8 season record. The most obvious reason for the decline is personnel changes along the line, primarily the retirement of right tackle Damien Woody before the start of the 2011 season. ProFootballFocus graded his 2011 replacement, the since-departed Wayne Hunter, as one of the worst tackles in football. Austin Howard, this season's starter, hasn't fared much better. But the Jets' two All-Pro linemen are performing nowhere near that level. Center Nick Mangold was graded the second-best center in the league in 2010 and 2011, but he ranks just 18th this year. Left tackle D'Brickashaw Ferguson has fallen even more, from a high of fourth in 2010 to 41st this year. And in Ryan's first two seasons, even unheralded guard Brandon Moore was graded in the top 10 at his position. But now Moore is below average, too, ranking 38th among guards thus far this season.

10-05-2012, 11:32 AM	#6
DDNYjets Bye week buh bye Rex Hall Of Fame Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: New York Posts: 12,300	Moore has gotten older. He is a career overachiever. Can't knock on him too much other than I think he his role in the locker room mess last season has been overlooked. Brick has always been soft and he had his best years with Faneca playing next to him. Got paid. Saw an interview with him on Jets.com where he was pleased with his performance and the team's performance last year claiming that going 8-8 is an accomplishment in this league. Wants to be a Hollywood director. Writing is on the wall. Mangold was always slightly overrated IMO. Don't get me wrong, he was a great player but he too had his best years when he was playing alongside Faneca and Moore in his prime. He got paid and has been out of shape the past couple of years. Just look at pictures of him. He needs to go work out with his sister. Harris was once the most underrated LB in the league. Got paid and got slow. Last edited by DDNYjets; 10-05-2012 at 11:34 AM.

10-05-2012, 11:09 AM	#2
adpz Veteran Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,002	It's hard to know how accurate these kind of deep stats are - but this is not - can't be - just a physical thing. There is no way that someone just loses their ability to play a position that badly. I think the general decline has to do with coaching and, in a negative sense, either not working as unit or team. An optimist might say that that's just going on because of a new scheme, adjusting to it, etc. But the new scheme was supposed to be easier than the old one . . . Who knows what is valid here - but I think this does show that the 'old' idea that you build a team from the lines is as valid as ever. I would happily take a dominant O and D line over any upgrade at the skill spots. Next to a QB, a great line is the next most important thing to make everyone else on the field look better.

10-05-2012, 11:21 AM	#3
eaglenj All League Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3,839	Yes our line isnt playing well, but its far from all on them. Sanchcez has been sacked 6 times....yet has 4 picks and 2 fumbles. For comparison, Rodgers line has really struggled allowing 16 sacks and yet he only has 3 picks and 0 fumbles. That is a monumental disparity, that the line cannot control. Also while our run blocking is FAR from 2009-2010, are we really not opening holes for greene? Or is it more the fact that Rex has stayed with a RB who cant cut back, make defenders miss, and ends 75% of his runs by plowing straight into his own linemans back?

10-05-2012, 11:25 AM	#4
southside Forever Awesome All Pro Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,893	I agree with the assessment. Brick and Mangold aren't playing at a top level and it's because of the garbage playing next to them. It's not a coincidence. Faneca made them better. The Jets need a really good LG and those two will benefit greatly from such. Or it could be that they both got big ass paydays the last two years and they stopped working as hard.... also not a coincidence.

10-05-2012, 11:36 AM	#7
TheMo All League Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,347	This is my biggest issue with the general strategy of this organization. We fix a problem but rather than incorporating that into future strategy it seems like they go ADD and just forget how important it was. We fix the line in 2008 and then don't address it again until 2010. This is where having extra 4th-5th round picks help. Drafting trench guys there when you are already "good" is what allows OL/DL to continuously stay powerful. When you are good you don't have to worry about the misses that will inevitably come from that area of the draft. But when you hit on one of those you can plug them in as the line you fixed starts to show signs of erosion.

10-05-2012, 11:37 AM	#9
adoom Waterboy Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 24	[QUOTE=rmeyer52;4632039]From today's Wall Street Journal... The performance of the Jets offensive line has reached new lows after a precipitous decline that began in 2011. Even worse, the former stars that led the unit to wide acclaim at the beginning of coach Rex Ryan's tenure are increasingly responsible for sinking it. This year, the Jets' pass blocking ranks 22nd (of 32 teams) and its run blocking 31st, according to ProFootballFocus.com, which grades every play of each lineman based on his individual assignment, play result and game situation. That run ranking this year is especially problematic considering Ryan's pledge to return his team to its ground-and-pound ways that led to consecutive appearances in the AFC championship game his first two seasons. In 2009, the Jets' run blocking ranked fifth, as did their pass blocking. In 2010, the line was even better, ranking fourth in run blocking and second when passing. But last year, the Jets ranked 12th in the former and 13th in the latter—middle-of-the-pack figures, much like their 8-8 season record. The most obvious reason for the decline is personnel changes along the line, primarily the retirement of right tackle Damien Woody before the start of the 2011 season. ProFootballFocus graded his 2011 replacement, the since-departed Wayne Hunter, as one of the worst tackles in football. Austin Howard, this season's starter, hasn't fared much better. But the Jets' two All-Pro linemen are performing nowhere near that level. Center Nick Mangold was graded the second-best center in the league in 2010 and 2011, but he ranks just 18th this year. Left tackle D'Brickashaw Ferguson has fallen even more, from a high of fourth in 2010 to 41st this year. And in Ryan's first two seasons, even unheralded guard Brandon Moore was graded in the top 10 at his position. But now Moore is below average, too, ranking 38th among guards thus far this season. Didn't take a genius to see this!

10-05-2012, 11:40 AM	#10
TheMo All League Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,347	Also let it be known that this guy kinda cherry picked with the PFF stats. Prior to this past week Brick and Mangold were much higher. Both had really bad games against the 49ers. Not saying I disagree, but the guy picked the perfect time to "compare" years and show a stark contrast.

10-05-2012, 11:46 AM	#11
CTjetfan52 grateful for the love and joy still to be sharedin this world All Pro Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,400	The chain is as strong as its weakest link. Slauson and Howard have altered the line chemistry and we have moved to a new O-line coach and a new scheme. The players are aging. Hate to keep beating a dead horse but Rex and Tanny have really failed to evaluate the team's talent accurately and make the necessary changes and upgrades. It was criminal to start the season with Wayne Hunter on our roster and be espousing a Ground and Pound philosophy without the personnel. It's called HUBRIS: Hubris ( /ˈhjuːbrɪs/), also hybris, from ancient Greek ὕβρις, means extreme pride or arrogance. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power. The adjectival form of hubris is "hubristic".

10-05-2012, 11:48 AM	#13
lageman4ever Hall Of Fame Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,153	I wonder about PFF ratings as well. I've never found out who exactly is doing these ratings - are they professional scouts, volunteer joe sixpacks watching the games, etc. But while the exact precision of these rankings may be in question, I think their gross ratings are likely correct. For the Jets the PFF assessment on the decline of the OL play is consistent with what most of us have commented on JI. And that's especially true for our previous star performers like Mangold and DBrick. This decline is a bit odd. Much of the OL has played together as a unit for a number of years now and that continuity generally leads to good play. And, except for Moore, all of the guys are in the prime of their careers age wise. Finally while the guys have had some injuries, nobody's had anything truly serious like an ACL tear. So the precipitous drop off is unusual.

10-05-2012, 11:58 AM	#14
Jet Blast is full of status All League Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Forked River, NJ Posts: 4,482	How the hell is D'Brick ranked 41st??? I know he has dropped off but that's ridiculous. There are 32 teams and this would mean that there are teams with backups better than him!

10-05-2012, 01:34 PM	#20
rmeyer52 All League Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Simi Valley, California Posts: 2,709	It's almost like trying to fix new leaks in a boat. As soon as you have one taken care of another one pops up. However if the Jets had a strategic plan someone should have noted that by the time they put all the pieces of the puzzle together some are going to be faded and need to be replaced.