OK now that the election is behind us...

[Trades]

where do we go from here? Conservatives can lament that the country is lost but that solves nothing.

Knowing what the last 4 years of Obama brought one should be able to figure out how to navigate the system to prosper. How does someone in the infamous 99% move up?

How does someone in the bottom 20% (other than the retired) move up to the next tier and so on? Where are the opportunities if someone really wanted to try?

In investing I have to assume health care is a big one. Alternative energy would have to be another.

There has to be a niche somewhere that you can use this administrations policies to your advantage. What is the next ebay, Amazon or PayPal? Is there money in learning solar panel installations and what would the start up costs be? What are your ideas?

[freestater]

there's always Costa Rica.

[Trades]

Originally Posted by freestater

there's always Costa Rica.

I was actually thinking Honduras...
http://www.economist.com/node/21541391

Free cities

Honduras shrugged

Two start-ups want to try out libertarian ideas in the country’s new special development regions

Dec 10th 2011 | from the print edition



DISGUSTED by an increasingly invasive state, America's most capable entrepreneurs retreat to Galt's Gulch, a libertarian commune. That was the theme of Ayn Rand's magnum opus, “Atlas Shrugged”, a sacred text for libertarians ever since it was published in 1957. Actually creating such an enclave has been the dream of many fans of small government (or of none at all). Several have had a try at it, but their efforts have always ended in disaster (see table).






Now, for the first time, libertarians have a real chance to implement their ideas. In addition to a big special development region, the Honduran government intends to approve two smaller zones. And two libertarian-leaning start-ups have already signed a preliminary memorandum of understanding with the Honduran government to develop them.

One firm goes by the name of Future Cities Development Corporation. It was co-founded by Patri Friedman, a grandson of Milton Friedman, a Nobel laureate in economics, and until recently executive director of the Seasteading Institute, a group producing research on how to build ocean-based communes. The other is called Grupo Ciudades Libres (Free Cities Group) and is the brainchild of Michael Strong and Kevin Lyons, two entrepreneurs and libertarian activists.


Both share a purpose: to build “free cities”. Last April all three spoke at a conference organised by Universidad Francisco Marroquín, a libertarian outfit in Guatemala. In September they and Giancarlo Ibárgüen, the university's president, launched the Free Cities Institute, a think-tank, to foster the cause.


As so often with enthusiasts, divisions within the cause run deep. The two firms hail from different parts of the libertarian spectrum. Mr Friedman is an outspoken critic of democracy. It is “ill-suited for a libertarian state”, he wrote in an essay in 2009—because it is “rigged against libertarians” (they would always lose) and inefficient. Rather than giving its citizens a voice, he argues, they should be free to exit; cities should compete for them by offering the best services.


The second firm's backers appear to be less radical. A founder of several charter schools, Mr Strong is now the force behind FLOW, a movement that claims to combine libertarian thinking “with love, compassion, social and environmental consciousness”, says its website. He too prefers exit over voice (meaning that he thinks that leaving and joining are better constraints on executive power than the ballot box). But he also believes that democratic consent is needed in certain areas, such as criminal justice. His goal in Honduras is less to implement libertarian ideals than to reduce poverty and to speed up economic development.


Some in the Honduran government have libertarian leanings, which is one reason why the authorities have moved so quickly. But when the master developers for the new zones are selected next year, strong political credentials will not be enough—and may even prove to be a drawback. Mr Friedman is stressing a difference between his political beliefs and his firm. “Ideology makes bad business,” he says, adding that Future Cities Development wants to focus on the needs of the people who live in the city.


Yet the biggest hurdle for the libertarian start-ups may be that the transparency commission, which will oversee the development regions, is unlikely to give them free rein. The “constitutional statute” for the development zones, which the Honduran national congress passed in August, does not leave much wiggle room in key areas, not least when it comes to democracy: ultimately their citizens will vote.
Both firms, however, have links to prominent libertarians with deep pockets. Mr Strong is close to John Mackey, the co-founder and chief executive of Whole Foods, a high-end supermarket chain—though Mr Strong says that Mr Mackey already has too many other things on his plate. Mr Friedman's contacts seem more promising: the Seasteading Institute received lots of cash from Peter Thiel, a Silicon Valley billionaire who founded the internet payment service PayPal and was an early investor in Facebook, the world's biggest social network.


Mr Thiel's ambitions go far beyond scouting out the next big thing in technology. “I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible,” he wrote in an essay in 2009. This is why libertarians should find an escape from politics, he added. “Because there are no truly free places left in our world, I suspect that the mode of escape must involve some sort of new and hitherto untried process that leads us to some undiscovered country.” Back then he had the ocean or space in mind. Honduras would certainly be more convenient.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by Trades

where do we go from here?

Where do "we" go? "We" don't go anywhere.

The agenda is in the Presidents hands, and will be exactly what it is expected to be.

Immigration Reform, Green Jobs and Energy, Higher Taxes on everyone, Universal Single Payer Healthcare, Increases in entitlement and welfare programs, larger more powerful Government, and small, weaker, less free individuals, no budget, no end to millitary interventionism, no end to Patriot Act and further intrusion into our civil liberties, and no accountabillity of any kind for the Government, in what it spends, how it spend, who it kills or what it does. Oh, and four more years of any opposition to any policy being branded as racist and selfish and hateful.

I.e. business as usual.

For the "greater good" and "we're all in it together" will be said many, many times in the near future, to explain why some of "we" will have alot less of our money and freedom, and others will be the beneficiaries of our state mandataed charity and forgiveness.

[Trades]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Where do "we" go? "We" don't go anywhere.

The agenda is in the Presidents hands, and will be exactly what it is expected to be.

Immigration Reform, Green Jobs and Energy, Higher Taxes on everyone, Universal Single Payer Healthcare, Increases in entitlement and welfare programs, larger more powerful Government, and small, weaker, less free individuals, no budget, no end to millitary interventionism, no end to Patriot Act and further intrusion into our civil liberties, and no accountabillity of any kind for the Government, in what it spends, how it spend, who it kills or what it does. Oh, and four more years of any opposition to any policy being branded as racist and selfish and hateful.

I.e. business as usual.

For the "greater good" and "we're all in it together" will be said many, many times in the near future, to explain why some of "we" will have alot less of our money and freedom, and others will be the beneficiaries of our state mandataed charity and forgiveness.

I didn't mean where do "we" go physically. I meant what can the not so average American that wants to do for himself and his family do to prosper? If you are willing to work, take chances, etc, how do you make your mark in this system? How do we play their game to get a piece of the pie?

Also is there any way to not just give up and let the country fall into the abyss? Many of us here see that what we have today is totally unsustainable. The American government is supposed to be by the people and for the people. How do we keep America being the land of opportunity and freedom that it was designed to be? Is there a road back to prosperity rather than redistribution?

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by Trades

I didn't mean where do "we" go physically. I meant what can the not so average American that wants to do for himself and his family do to prosper? If you are willing to work, take chances, etc, how do you make your mark in this system? How do we play their game to get a piece of the pie?

You don't.

You can work hard, same as always. Be personally responsible, same as always. Work FOR the system, of course, since it's always better to be the Commisar than the kulaks.

Means little, because all along the way, those who break the law (illegals), make stupid mistakes or don't want to work (economics) and want to share your wealth (D) will continue to take more and more from you, to give to their voters.

By all emans, you cans till be fine with only 40% of your paycheck, or even 50%. You won't have the house youw ant, where you want, perhaps, like the situation I am in. But you'll get by.

Also is there any way to not just give up and let the country fall into the abyss?

Best of luck with that. At this point, I've seen enough, and enough paralleles with history. I'm definitely at the "**** it" stage. I know where it's going, and I know how to survivie it.

You? You're on your own. I'd suggest reading some history. You're going to need it in the next fewe decades.

[Trades]

Originally Posted by Warfish

You don't.

You can work hard, same as always. Be personally responsible, same as always. Work FOR the system, of course, since it's always better to be the Commisar than the kulaks.

Means little, because all along the way, those who break the law (illegals), make stupid mistakes or don't want to work (economics) and want to share your wealth (D) will continue to take more and more from you, to give to their voters.

By all emans, you cans till be fine with only 40% of your paycheck, or even 50%. You won't have the house youw ant, where you want, perhaps, like the situation I am in. But you'll get by.



Best of luck with that. At this point, I've seen enough, and enough paralleles with history. I'm definitely at the "**** it" stage. I know where it's going, and I know how to survivie it.

You? You're on your own. I'd suggest reading some history. You're going to need it in the next fewe decades.

I am very aware of history but I like to think that there is a way to prepare for the fall, use bad situations to your advantage or to be at the top when the **** hits the fan. Maybe you are right, maybe humanity is just flawed and it is going to make the same mistakes over and over. However history also shows that there will be independent spirits that will find a better way. The American pioneers did that. People left for dead in Australia did that.

Personally I am not willing to give up. Unlike you I have 2 kids who I need to provide for and still have to think I can give them a better world than we have today. Maybe the answer is to take a huge leap and move to one of these "free cities" in Honduras. Be a pioneer and start over. That is how America started. People need to be willing to make a sacrifice to ensure a better future.