The separation of church and state is the distance in the relationship between organi

[WestCoastOffensive]

The separation of church and state is the distance in the relationship between organized religion and the nation state.

The Republicans real fight: Get back their constituents.

[WestCoastOffensive]

Okay - Are we in agreement that WITHOUT the anti-abortionists, there is no "Republican Party"?

[Axil]

I don't believe abortion is primarily a religious issue.

[jetman67]

Originally Posted by Axil

I don't believe abortion is primarily a religious issue.

Its a personal issue that the government has no business being involved in. IMO life begins at birth, and until then its a fetus. Others believe life begins at conception, and some extremists like the loser in the election seem to believe it begins 2 weeks before conception.


If in fact God thinks its wrong or immoral, then its a issue between the woman and God. Nobody else should be involved.

[Axil]

Originally Posted by jetman67

Its a personal issue that the government has no business being involved in. IMO life begins at birth, and until then its a fetus. Others believe life begins at conception, and some extremists like the loser in the election seem to believe it begins 2 weeks before conception.

But it's not a personal issue. If life does in fact begin at conception, abortion is murder. There is no two ways about it. It wasn't to long ago that many believed that blacks were subhuman, some still do. Does that mean that the killing of an African American is a personal issue? I didn't think so. Abortion isn't either. If a fetus is just a fetus, then no big deal. If it's not, then an abortion is an execution.

Originally Posted by jetman67

If in fact God thinks its wrong or immoral, then its a issue between the woman and God. Nobody else should be involved.

You could make the same thing about anything we consider a crime. There are very few laws that don't have a moral basis.

[jetman67]

Originally Posted by Axil

But it's not a personal issue. If life does in fact begin at conception, abortion is murder. There is no two ways about it. It wasn't to long ago that many believed that blacks were subhuman, some still do. Does that mean that the killing of an African American is a personal issue? I didn't think so. Abortion isn't either. If a fetus is just a fetus, then no big deal. If it's not, then an abortion is an execution.


You could make the same thing about anything we consider a crime. There are very few laws that don't have a moral basis.

Life begins at birth. a living being is able to breathe on its own, have a heart beat on its own and not need to rely on another living being to breathe.

Therefore, Abortion is not murder.

[Sharrow]

Personally, I'm pro life to an extent, not because I think life begins at conception; I don't, but because no matter how you look at it, it's denying an eventual person the opportunity to live. Up to a point, they don't exist yet as a person as far as I'm concerned. I don't know when exactly that point is, but either way, it's a choice to allow them to exist or not.

That said, I'm pro choice because I think it should be a personal decision that I don't think the government should make for anyone. Plus I'm a dude and consider it a woman's choice. If the vast majority of women ever come out in droves asking for it to be made illegal, then maybe I'll switch sides.

[DDNYjets]

All fine and dandy. I am not going to get into "when life begins". BUT.

Why do I have to pay for your abortions? THAT is the double standard. You don't want religious people to tell you what to do with your body but why do those religious people have to pay for your abortions?

Oh, and BTW. "Women's health issues" and "contraception" = "abortion". Every time you hear a Dem talk about women's health they are talking about abortion. Don't get it twisted. Lets call it what it is and not hide behind semantics.

Also, lets take the 20,000 "rape pregnancies" and other extreme cases out of the equation. Do you guys think it is good for society to make getting an abortion easier? What message does it send?

BTW, technically I am "pro-life" but I do not want to overturn Roe v Wade. It has been decided and is done as far as I am concerned. I just think the rate of abortions says something about our society.

[WestCoastOffensive]

I can see that you guys are heading over the cliff, as anyone does.

Someone pointed out to me that "Nobody is ever WRONG on this issue". Resolution, at the level of the Nation, seems impossible.


Check this: the polls showed that many people voted Dem because of the hardline anti abortion stance.

Then they cut to the hard-core Anti Abortionists, shown chiding the Republicans that they should have campaigned HARDER and MORE STUBBORNLY on Pro life issues, and since they DID NOT, that's why they lost to Dems.


Are we going to allow this to take down our two party system?

[WestCoastOffensive]

Originally Posted by Axil

I don't believe abortion is primarily a religious issue.

well...are you religious? Do you believe that men and women of skill and capability, with maybe a 5-12 year service window, should be bounced from office because of this issue?

To try to gather these votes, the (R) are treading a fine line that may have shifted. The Moral Majority seems to be having trouble defining morality for 2012.

[palmetto defender]

I am pro life personally but am not anti abortion. The state should stay out of the matter. It's settled law anyway and will never be overturned.
You want an abortion? Get an abortion. But don't expect someone else to pay for it. Pay yourself or get a "pro bono" doctor or clinic to handle it without taxpayer or health plan funds. (Rape or incest exclusion). The same applies to birth control. Your decision, you pay. Same with drugs like Viagra. Same with elective surgery (nose job, boob job).
Weight reduction - run 20 minutes everyday. And a myriad of other personal "medical" issues.
Personal responsibility and accountability.

[WestCoastOffensive]

Originally Posted by palmetto defender

I am pro life personally but am not anti abortion. The state should stay out of the matter. It's settled law anyway and will never be overturned.
You want an abortion? Get an abortion. But don't expect someone else to pay for it. Pay yourself or get a "pro bono" doctor or clinic to handle it without taxpayer or health plan funds. (Rape or incest exclusion). The same applies to birth control. Your decision, you pay. Same with drugs like Viagra. Same with elective surgery (nose job, boob job).
Weight reduction - run 20 minutes everyday. And a myriad of other personal "medical" issues.
Personal responsibility and accountability.

Thank you.

It seems that the Republicans are acting as mere shills for the group that wants law overturned, and that it's okay for the AA to slow down civic process, preventing it from operating at it highest and best order.

I don't see the defiance slowing, but growing.

[palmetto defender]

Originally Posted by WestCoastOffensive

Thank you.

It seems that the Republicans are acting as mere shills for the group that wants law overturned, and that it's okay for the AA to slow down civic process, preventing it from operating at it highest and best order.

I don't see the defiance slowing, but growing.

I am an "economic" Republican. That means pragmatic and willing for SOME compromise. Certain things the government needs to help with financially, many not. THe abuses and overkill are astounding and too numerous to list.
I fully endorse some chanages in taxation. We already have a progressive system which is abused. Some need to pay "modestly" more. If the change is severe, jobs will be lost. I also think everyone should pay something - even a very modest amount - skin in the game.
I beleive there needs to be a path to immigration. But we can not have rampant overrunning of the borders without any control. That IS a crime. And criminals from elsewhere should never be allowed to become citizens or even stay here.
Frankly, neither side is exercising common sense. And neither side is moderate, middle of the road which is exactly what is needed.

[PlumberKhan]

Originally Posted by Axil

But it's not a personal issue. If life does in fact begin at conception, abortion is murder.

If so, than in-vitro clinics murder just like abortion clinics.

There is no method to dispose of the excess embryos that is morally acceptable to everyone. Occasionally, an infertile couple will need to go back for a second try at achieving a pregnancy. This happens when the first procedure did not produce a pregnancy, or when the couple wants to have an additional child. One or more additional embryos are then removed from storage, thawed out, and implanted. But even when that happens, perhaps 16 of the couple's embryos will still remain frozen. These surplus embryos will almost inevitably be destroyed:

• Perhaps 50% do not survive the freezing or thawing process.
• Others will die during storage.
• Equipment malfunction, perhaps after decades of storage, might destroy hundreds of embryos.
• Some parents ask that the surplus embryos be destroyed in order to save the cost of maintaining them in storage.
• Some clinics simply dispose of surplus embryos without freezing them.

[WestCoastOffensive]

Originally Posted by palmetto defender

I am an "economic" Republican. That means pragmatic and willing for SOME compromise. Certain things the government needs to help with financially, many not. THe abuses and overkill are astounding and too numerous to list.
I fully endorse some chanages in taxation. We already have a progressive system which is abused. Some need to pay "modestly" more. If the change is severe, jobs will be lost. I also think everyone should pay something - even a very modest amount - skin in the game.
I beleive there needs to be a path to immigration. But we can not have rampant overrunning of the borders without any control. That IS a crime. And criminals from elsewhere should never be allowed to become citizens or even stay here.
Frankly, neither side is exercising common sense. And neither side is moderate, middle of the road which is exactly what is needed.

Nice; I am hopeful that those involved with this election will continue to press the issue of moderate ~ middle of the road politicking; the budget issue looks like it may be resolved in some fashion now...good or bad, I'm pointing at evidence maybe the populace is "willing" them there.

[Warfish]

So, thus far post election, the key to a Republican return is:

-End all efforts at immigration enforcement. Promote and support illegal immigration and call it "immigration" until all immigration restrictions can be repealed and called "reform".

-Pander, in every way possible, to the African American Community, apparently by ending any effort to curb social welfare, and by cutting all ties with the "Religious right".

-End all efforts to oppose abortion. Period. Agree to pay for any and all abortions, contraceptives and fully fund planned parenthood, even if Obamacare already covers everything Planned Parenthood does via other providers.

-Never, ever, put up for office a wealthy man. Or a white man. Middle-class or lower, women or "peope of color" only.

-Cut the Millitary by 75% minimum. Spend every penny cut on social programs and "social justice" programs to set right the discrepancy between white men, and women and people of color in all aspects of society.

So, there we have it, the winning (R) ticket for 2016.

[WestCoastOffensive]

Originally Posted by Warfish

So, thus far post election, the key to a Republican return is:

-End all efforts at immigration enforcement. Promote and support illegal immigration and call it "immigration" until all immigration restrictions can be repealed and called "reform".

-Pander, in every way possible, to the African American Community, apparently by ending any effort to curb social welfare, and by cutting all ties with the "Religious right".

-End all efforts to oppose abortion. Period. Agree to pay for any and all abortions, contraceptives and fully fund planned parenthood, even if Obamacare already covers everything Planned Parenthood does via other providers.

-Never, ever, put up for office a wealthy man. Or a white man. Middle-class or lower, women or "peope of color" only.

-Cut the Millitary by 75% minimum. Spend every penny cut on social programs and "social justice" programs to set right the discrepancy between white men, and women and people of color in all aspects of society.

So, there we have it, the winning (R) ticket for 2016.

Swing and a miss; what is your problem. Stay on topic or gtfo

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by WestCoastOffensive

Swing and a miss; what is your problem. Stay on topic or gtfo

Given some of your own ramblings of late, I think I'd chill with comment like that WCO if I were you.

My post is 100% on-topic, given that one major key you're clearly pushing is that (R) needs to cut loose it's Religious base, something we both know isn't going to happen, and is a core difference (in real policy terms) between (R) and (D).

Your thread is simply another example of smug patronization suggesting that (R) wins by becoming (D-light). It's a consistent theme here now, in thread after thread. Moderate by kicking out each group that supports one pillar of (R) policy.

I don't even like Religion, as my posting record clearly shows, and even I can see this is a laughbale idea for (R) to follow. As you say, without the Anti-abortionists, i.e. the Christian Vote, there is no (R). So why would you expect (R) to dump them?

[palmetto defender]

Originally Posted by WestCoastOffensive

Nice; I am hopeful that those involved with this election will continue to press the issue of moderate ~ middle of the road politicking; the budget issue looks like it may be resolved in some fashion now...good or bad, I'm pointing at evidence maybe the populace is "willing" them there.

Our country was founded on compromise. NONE of the founders got what they wanted. EXCEPT A NEW COUNTRY.
We have no place for bozos like Grover Norquist. Or Nancy Pelosi or Jesse Jackson Jr. or Sarah Palin. All fringe players.
Everybody has to give a little and that means in all areas. Spending AND revenue.

[WestCoastOffensive]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Given some of your own ramblings of late, I think I'd chill with comment like that WCO if I were you.

My post is 100% on-topic, given that one major key you're clearly pushing is that (R) needs to cut loose it's Religious base, something we both know isn't going to happen, and is a core difference (in real policy terms) between (R) and (D).

Your thread is simply another example of smug patronization suggesting that (R) wins by becoming (D-light). It's a consistent theme here now, in thread after thread. Moderate by kicking out each group that supports one pillar of (R) policy.

I don't even like Religion, as my posting record clearly shows, and even I can see this is a laughbale idea for (R) to follow. As you say, without the Anti-abortionists, i.e. the Christian Vote, there is no (R). So why would you expect (R) to dump them?

tl;dr

stay on topic; your interpretations are from Mars.