Taxes

[HessStation]

Originally Posted by PlumberKhan

250k is the top 2%.

Any a**hole who can't live on 120 bucks an hour should really kill themselves and their family. They bring nothing to the table.


Sent from my 8.6 acre property with 4 bedroom house with waterfront views and low utility costs because of the gas well on my property using fireworks...

Yeah they should live like they make 50 bucks an hour because it's not fair they're more successful.

[southparkcpa]

Originally Posted by PlumberKhan

250k is the top 2%.

Any a**hole who can't live on 120 bucks an hour should really kill themselves and their family. They bring nothing to the table.


Sent from my 8.6 acre property with 4 bedroom house with waterfront views and low utility costs because of the gas well on my property using fireworks...

Funny thing....these people never think by the hour. My billing rate is $220 an hour but we charge flat fees that sometimes yield more, sometimes less. BUT the wealthy never work by the hour. I just got $2000 for a tax return that took 4 hours. WHY? Risk premium.

If they bring nothing to the table..someone is overpaying them

[TheMikeIsHot]

I know investors often take big risks and profit margins are sometimes razor thin -- that's part of the game.

But if the taxes from payroll income and investments were equal, which I think they should be, would investors go out and find a 9-5 job? Move out of the country?

I assume no... because they will continue to do they know and have made them successful... so what then? They might make less on investments, maybe take on projects with less risk?

By the way, an investor's definition of risk is far different from that of a police officer. Just something to think about.

It doesn't matter to me how one makes his money. If venture capitalism is what you consider "work" that's great... but your income and my income should be taxed the same way, at the same rate.

How come there are no tax loopholes for custodians and trash collectors who are elbow deep in sh!t everyday? Because they don't run Washington. But they are no less important to society than anyone else... because I know damn well you're not going to take your own garbage to the dump.

[MnJetFan]

Once Obama cuts the budget then we talk about taxes not until then. Obama time to shutup and get spending under control!

[southparkcpa]

Originally Posted by TheMikeIsHot

How come there are no tax loopholes for custodians and trash collectors who are elbow deep in sh!t everyday? Because they don't run Washington. But they are no less important to society than anyone else... because I know damn well you're not going to take your own garbage to the dump.

But there are.... a trash collector only has to work 20 years in NYC and then the rest of his life he gets a pension and health insurance. A janitor has similar benefits. These are very valuable and are tax free while working and most of their pension is tax free at the state level.

I need to save about 25K a year to have a similar beneifit.

Not complianing and dont want to be political just pointing out that public employee unions have done a thorough job ensuring benefits for its rank and file.

[chiefst2000]

The problem with all of these arguments is that the baseline that is presented is completely false. When you take entitlement taxes like medicare and social security out of the mix, which is appropriate since those are not true taxes but rather forced savings, the average family making 100K per year in income pays an effective tax rate of around 12%. Even families making around 200K pay effective tax rates right around 15-18%. The is particularly tru for those living in States which have State income tax.This idea that the cap gains and dividend rates are dramatically less then what the average taxpayer pays is simply not true when actual numbers are used. Kicking incetsment income up to 35% then adding state and local taxes in bringing it up to 40+ % would absolutely stifle investment.

[Axil]

Originally Posted by TheMikeIsHot

I know investors often take big risks and profit margins are sometimes razor thin -- that's part of the game.

But if the taxes from payroll income and investments were equal, which I think they should be, would investors go out and find a 9-5 job? Move out of the country?

I assume no... because they will continue to do they know and have made them successful... so what then? They might make less on investments, maybe take on projects with less risk?

By the way, an investor's definition of risk is far different from that of a police officer. Just something to think about.

It doesn't matter to me how one makes his money. If venture capitalism is what you consider "work" that's great... but your income and my income should be taxed the same way, at the same rate.

How come there are no tax loopholes for custodians and trash collectors who are elbow deep in sh!t everyday? Because they don't run Washington. But they are no less important to society than anyone else... because I know damn well you're not going to take your own garbage to the dump.

But it's not about the investor. It's the fact that investors are a prerequisite of a capitalistic economy. After the crash(es), the tightening of investment funds is largely responsible for the continued decline of the economy, and private investors were willing to take on a lot more risk than banks in the right circumstances. Raising taxes on investment reduces those circumstances, reduces economic growth, reduces the number of jobs available.

Look i'm not trying to tell you investors are saints, looking to better the country, they're not. Capitalism works because it allows people acting selfishly, in their own interest to benefit society as a whole. Any time you penalize something you reduce it. This is a basic economic fact.

[chiefst2000]

Originally Posted by Axil

But it's not about the investor. It's the fact that investors are a prerequisite of a capitalistic economy. After the crash(es), the tightening of investment funds is largely responsible for the continued decline of the economy, and private investors were willing to take on a lot more risk than banks in the right circumstances. Raising taxes on investment reduces those circumstances, reduces economic growth, reduces the number of jobs available.

Look i'm not trying to tell you investors are saints, looking to better the country, they're not. Capitalism works because it allows people acting selfishly, in their own interest to benefit society as a whole. Any time you penalize something you reduce it. This is a basic economic fact.

[palmetto defender]

Originally Posted by Warfish

And what if, we lower the % of taxation for labor and production (i.e. lower the labor tax rate and the Business Tax rate) alongside the increase in Capital gains taxes?

Incentive work and business profit, and shift the burden of taxation away from working, and towards investing income.

I can see a good argument that income that does not involve work and is generally done by those who are not in any fiscal need, should face a higher rate of taxation than income due to personal labor.

Remember that dividends which are currently taxed at 15%, have already been taxed at the corporate level at a rate of perhaps 35%. That means a double taxation on the invested capital. Excessive.
A change in capital gains rates (50% exclusion as it once once) is not terrible. Aggressive changes and increased run the risk oof stunning the economy. Better to move gradually. Evolution rather than revolution.
Some changes to deductions and exclusions should be considered.
An increase in age eligibilty for SS and Medicare is a must. Disability abuse must be curbed as well as Medicaid abuse.

[palmetto defender]

Originally Posted by PlumberKhan

250k is the top 2%.

Any a**hole who can't live on 120 bucks an hour should really kill themselves and their family. They bring nothing to the table.


Sent from my 8.6 acre property with 4 bedroom house with waterfront views and low utility costs because of the gas well on my property using fireworks...

$120/hour isn't what it used to be. The fuel bill for my boat is a disgrace.
Actually 250k is not a lot. For a guy like cpa for example - he has 2 kids in decent colleges. Ain't cheap. Lots of us already have a hefty tax bill.
Do those who pay no taxes have ANY responsibility? Here's thought. Pay no taxes, get community service. Same with get food stamps or unemployment, clean the park etc.

[Trades]

Originally Posted by palmetto defender

$120/hour isn't what it used to be. The fuel bill for my boat is a disgrace.
Actually 250k is not a lot. For a guy like cpa for example - he has 2 kids in decent colleges. Ain't cheap. Lots of us already have a hefty tax bill.
Do those who pay no taxes have ANY responsibility? Here's thought. Pay no taxes, get community service. Same with get food stamps or unemployment, clean the park etc.

Besides 250k in many parts of NJ, NY and CA is totally different than it is in the back woods of upstate NY. When I was in the Air Force in the late 80s and early 90s I was based in Oklahoma City and you could buy a house for $40k. You can barely buy a shed for that where I live in NJ.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by palmetto defender

Remember that dividends which are currently taxed at 15%, have already been taxed at the corporate level at a rate of perhaps 35%. That means a double taxation on the invested capital. Excessive.

No, it doesn't.

You are not the Corporation. You are two seperate legal entities.

Their profit is not your profit. Their income is not your income.

Your profit only occurs when they issue you a dividend.

It's not a double tax, it's a tax on the Business, and then a tax on you, two different entities, two different taxes.

And it's exactly the same as payroll, where the business is taxed on its profit, then the employee is taxed when they are paid.

[Ernie]

Originally Posted by palmetto defender

$120/hour isn't what it used to be. The fuel bill for my boat is a disgrace.
Actually 250k is not a lot. For a guy like cpa for example - he has 2 kids in decent colleges. Ain't cheap. Lots of us already have a hefty tax bill.
Do those who pay no taxes have ANY responsibility? Here's thought. Pay no taxes, get community service. Same with get food stamps or unemployment, clean the park etc.

And the CPA with 2 kids in decent colleges is paying full freight. No aid for him. And tuition is payed with post tax dollars.

Meanwhile, the son of a worker gets need based scholarships.

[parafly]

At the end of the day, a yearly income of a quarter million dollars is a significant amount of money no matter how you spin it. If it is not enough for you and your family, then it's due to the personal choices you have made in life.

The overwhelming majority of Americans make significantly less income, and many of them are still able to live very comfortably. It's all about priorities and choices.

[palmetto defender]

Originally Posted by Warfish

No, it doesn't.

You are not the Corporation. You are two seperate legal entities.

Their profit is not your profit. Their income is not your income.

Your profit only occurs when they issue you a dividend.

It's not a double tax, it's a tax on the Business, and then a tax on you, two different entities, two different taxes.

And it's exactly the same as payroll, where the business is taxed on its profit, then the employee is taxed when they are paid.

Of course the profit is my profit. As a stockholder I OWN a percentage of the company. It is MINE. Their income is partially MINE.
You get confused because of the MAGNITUDE of some companies. Obviously my ownership % of Exxon is minimal but I still own a part - MY PROFIT.
If my company was a microcap it would be "closer to home" but no different.

[palmetto defender]

Originally Posted by parafly

At the end of the day, a yearly income of a quarter million dollars is a significant amount of money no matter how you spin it. If it is not enough for you and your family, then it's due to the personal choices you have made in life.

The overwhelming majority of Americans make significantly less income, and many of them are still able to live very comfortably. It's all about priorities and choices.

And I pay for my choices.
Who pays for the choice to use birth control?
Or government assistance because someone goes belly up on theoir house payment?
Or choose to have 6 children with no father and no job?
Let's have individual responsibility.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by palmetto defender

Of course the profit is my profit. As a stockholder I OWN a percentage of the company. It is MINE. Their income is partially MINE.

I have no idea how you could become so wealthy with such an inaccurate understanding of the way Corporations work.

No sir, it's not yours. You have (via stock ownership) a claim on assets ONLY if the Corporation ends, and less their outstanding liabillities. You cannot walk your stock certificate up to IBM and ask them for $100 woth of stuff in exchange for the stock on your demand.

The Corporation, and yourself, are two absolutely disstinct legal entities. You are not, in fact, an "owner" in the way your're claiming simply because you won stock, and the profit is not yours (the Corporation is under no obligation to issue a dividend).

If the system worked as you claim, where their profits are yopur profits, the reverse would also be true, their liabillities would be your liabillities, and when a company went out of business, you (as the supposed owner) would have to pony up your own personal assets to make good any liabillities outstanding at the time of termination......which clearly does not occur.

And income the business makes is not yours in any legal form until such time as they choose to issue a dividend. Then and only then does the money become income for you.

You're not being taxed twice anymore than my paycheck is taxed twice. I am not my employer, and you are not IBM just because you won a few shares.

[Trades]

Originally Posted by palmetto defender

And I pay for my choices.
Who pays for the choice to use birth control?
Or government assistance because someone goes belly up on theoir house payment?
Or choose to have 6 children with no father and no job?
Let's have individual responsibility.

As we saw in the housing/financial crash removing personal responsibility and risk from inherently risky behaviors encourages people to ignore risk because they will just be bailed out by others.

[parafly]

Originally Posted by palmetto defender

And I pay for my choices.

Yeah, you pay to fill up your boat with thousands of dollars worth of gas, and then go on to say that $120/hr isn't what it used to be and $250K yearly salary is not alot.

My point: yes, it is ... and the reason you don't think so is due to your personal choices and lifestyle.

[southparkcpa]

Originally Posted by parafly

At the end of the day, a yearly income of a quarter million dollars is a significant amount of money no matter how you spin it. If it is not enough for you and your family, then it's due to the personal choices you have made in life.

The overwhelming majority of Americans make significantly less income, and many of them are still able to live very comfortably. It's all about priorities and choices.

Fine but the tax increase on these people will do nothning..absolutely nothing.

It may hurt the restaurants in their neighborhood, cleaners, charities etc as their income decreases but the deficit will grow as will govt spending.