Just in Time

[MnJetFan]

One solution is the US cutting all aid to Muslim Countries no food no money.
It is hard to fight a war on empty stomachs. One other stop buying oil from the middle east, what else do they have to sell? Sand?

[sunmou]

http://www.hasbarafellowships.org/

[Soberphobia]

Originally Posted by MnJetFan

One solution is the US cutting all aid to Muslim Countries no food no money.
It is hard to fight a war on empty stomachs. One other stop buying oil from the middle east, what else do they have to sell? Sand?

The middle East supplies a huge quantity of the world's oil - if we stopped buying it from them the price of gas would skyrocket and a world wide depression would probably ensue.

As for the issues in the OP, Israel has annexed land from the Arabs, blockaded Gaza among other things, also carried out summary executions without trial of Arab leaders. Understandably the Arabs aren't particularly happy about this, but lobbing rockets into Israel, controlled by an extreme right-wing government and in control of the biggest military in the region, was only going to bring about one response, and they got it.

Hamas also has in its charter that it wants the complete obliteration of the Jewish state - the absurdity of this position points to the fact that what has happened over time is the gradual radicalisation of each sides position in response to each new atrocity. Can't see any winners going forward in this situaiton, just more death and destruction.

[Axil]

Originally Posted by greenwichjetfan

Perhaps the issue is that you proceeded to correct me without carefully reading my post, and then insinuated that I haven't read yours.

You must have missed the first word in the paragraph that you thought was incorrect.

I said "if Israel were to go in...". The closing sentence which you misinterpreted was merely restating the proposed 'if'...as in, '(before the hamas strikes over the past two days), IF Israel did that, they'd be the aggressor.'

Regardless, I happen to agree with your 'solutions are fluid...' post.

There is no "if". Hamas initiated the conflict. Hamas is the aggressor. That cannot be changed by what Israel does.

[nyctomjetsfan]

Originally Posted by DeanPatsFan

tell the rest of the world to get bent and go in and annihilate these filthy unwashed savages....

Sounds like something Hitler attempted...

but lets keep blaming the Palestinians for everything and act like Israel is merely defending herself.

[sunmou]

http://www.hasbarafellowships.org/

They have an app for that... log on and post, your megaphones are screaming.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

What inspired international human right charter? How soon people forget... yet they claim they will never forget.

[chiefst2000]

Originally Posted by nyctomjetsfan

Sounds like something Hitler attempted...

but lets keep blaming the Palestinians for everything and act like Israel is merely defending herself.

The only problem with your post is that it is complete nonsense. The Israelis do not have a presence in Gaza. It is not occupied land nor has it been annexed. The Israelis completely and unilaterally pulled out of gaza back in 2005 in a gesture of good faith. That gesture was met with rocket fire and war. No one has been starved. No ones father is imprisoned unjustly and no ones job was taken. That man doesn't even look like a Palestinian. Meanwhile in the real world Hamas had fired over 1000 rockets at Israeli this year before this action began.

You must be a liberal posting this blather. I wonder what you think Israel's motivation is for this current action in Gaza? If they wanted the land they could easily exterminate the vermin that live there. If that was too harsh but they still could expel all the animals that live there and take it over. Yet they don't. They only ask that the terrorists there stop firing missiles at Israeli schoolchildren and civillians. The Israelis provide those people with food, power, aid and money. Years ago before the Hamas terrorists took over they even had access to plenty of jobs in Israel. The Muslims in Israel have more freedom and a higher quality of life then anywhere else in the Muslim world. They can vote. They are members of Israeli Parliament, Supreme Court and have generals in the Israeli army.

[Soberphobia]

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3636182.htm

[Ruby2]

Originally Posted by nyctomjetsfan

Sounds like something Hitler attempted...

but lets keep blaming the Palestinians for everything and act like Israel is merely defending herself.

Yeah that guy definitely looks like he has suffered in Gaza by the hands of the Israelis...LOL

[Axil]

Originally Posted by Soberphobia

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3636182.htm

What's sickening is that the mother of a Palestinian girl (little more than an infant) calls her daughter a martyr after she's killed by an Israeli weapon.

A martyr, and people pretend that civilian population isn't in league sympathizing with those attacking Israel.

Any deaths of adult civilians stilling residing in the Gaza strip ought to be labeled suicides. Any deaths of Palestinian children, prolicide.

[chiefst2000]

Originally Posted by Soberphobia

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3636182.htm

It is a terrible shame when a child loses a their life. That article was completely unverified information so I will treat it with the skepticism it deserves. The Israelis don't fire indiscriminately and Its likely those people lived near a smuggling tunnel or rocket launcher site. The article admits that the strike wasn't on that childs home but rather the fallout of something that happened far away. It could have been the debris from an iron dome hit of a Palestinian rocket or a Pali rocket gone astray. The sad fact it that elections have consequences. The Arabs in Gaza got a chance to vote and they chose to elect Hamas. The father of that child in the article states that he thinks firing rockets in to Israel is a good idea. Well not he can live with the consequences of his personal politics and his support for terror rather then peace. His daughter is a martyr now and he can be proud that her soul will likely be one of the 70 virgin souls enslaved to male Arab souls when they are martyred.

[Soberphobia]

Originally Posted by Axil

What's sickening is that the mother of a Palestinian girl (little more than an infant) calls her daughter a martyr after she's killed by an Israeli weapon.

A martyr, and people pretend that civilian population isn't in league sympathizing with those attacking Israel.

Any deaths of adult civilians stilling residing in the Gaza strip ought to be labeled suicides. Any deaths of Palestinian children, prolicide.

I think a mother trying to make sense of the death of her child in such a way is understandable - we've all been to funerals where mourners say: 'its alright, she/he's with God now'. As the journalist above said, the family was a supporter of the moderate Fatah movement, not Hamas, but I do agree that there are great swathes of Palestinians (and Arabs for that matter) who support attacks on Israel; I think in Palestine they mentioned over a third of the population would like to see Israel wiped from the map. The reasons for this are pretty obvious.

Anyway, this isn't going to stop any time soon and a ground invasion is likely given Hamas rockets are still firing into Israel, so more of these types of stories are sadly likely. I do agree that Hamas is at least partially responsible for the death of Palestinian children - what else did they expect except retaliation of their firing rockets into Israel?

[Soberphobia]

Originally Posted by chiefst2000

It is a terrible shame when a child loses a their life. That article was completely unverified information so I will treat it with the skepticism it deserves. The Israelis don't fire indiscriminately and Its likely those people lived near a smuggling tunnel or rocket launcher site. The article admits that the strike wasn't on that childs home but rather the fallout of something that happened far away. It could have been the debris from an iron dome hit of a Palestinian rocket or a Pali rocket gone astray. The sad fact it that elections have consequences. The Arabs in Gaza got a chance to vote and they chose to elect Hamas. The father of that child in the article states that he thinks firing rockets in to Israel is a good idea. Well not he can live with the consequences of his personal politics and his support for terror rather then peace. His daughter is a martyr now and he can be proud that her soul will likely be one of the 70 virgin souls enslaved to male Arab souls when they are martyred.

I think the piece made it obvious it was an Israeli bomb, but anyway. As I said earlier in this thread, both sides have gotten more and more extreme with each new atrocity - the Palestinians voting in Hamas is an example of this. I think a father whose child's life has just been taken can be forgiven for wanting to fire back at those who killed his child....but broadly you are probably right, most Palestinians would agree with firing rockets into Israel, and in fact a lot of them would like to see Israel disappear.

[Axil]

Originally Posted by Soberphobia

I think a mother trying to make sense of the death of her child in such a way is understandable - we've all been to funerals where mourners say: 'its alright, she/he's with God now'. As the journalist above said, the family was a supporter of the moderate Fatah movement, not Hamas, but I do agree that there are great swathes of Palestinians (and Arabs for that matter) who support attacks on Israel; I think in Palestine they mentioned over a third of the population would like to see Israel wiped from the map. The reasons for this are pretty obvious.

So if only 1/3rd are willing human shields (essentially Hamas combatants), what is the excuse of the other 2/3rds staying there and jeopardizing their families.

And there is a stark contrast between making sense of the death of a child by believing they are with God, and believing they were martyred.

Originally Posted by Soberphobia

Anyway, this isn't going to stop any time soon and a ground invasion is likely given Hamas rockets are still firing into Israel, so more of these types of stories are sadly likely. I do agree that Hamas is at least partially responsible for the death of Palestinian children - what else did they expect except retaliation of their firing rockets into Israel?

Partially responsible? It's not only what Hamas expected it's what Hamas intended, the deaths of Palestinian children is the best result Hamas can hope for, as it aids them in vilifying Israel. Israel took the time to drop leaflets letting people know they needed to get the ***k out or be in harms way. Explain to me how Israel bears any responsibility for the children killed there? It seems to me the blame is shared between Hamas and the parents who decided to keep their children in a war zone.

[chiefst2000]

Originally Posted by nyctomjetsfan

Sounds like something Hitler attempted...

but lets keep blaming the Palestinians for everything and act like Israel is merely defending herself.

Hamas fired over 1000 of these missiles at Israeli citizens before the Israeli government finally responded. Here is a taste of what civillians in the south of Israel have gone through on a daily basis for years on end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=86FdnMIcS1A

[nyctomjetsfan]

Originally Posted by chiefst2000

The only problem with your post is that it is complete nonsense. The Israelis do not have a presence in Gaza. It is not occupied land nor has it been annexed. The Israelis completely and unilaterally pulled out of gaza back in 2005 in a gesture of good faith. That gesture was met with rocket fire and war. No one has been starved. No ones father is imprisoned unjustly and no ones job was taken. That man doesn't even look like a Palestinian. Meanwhile in the real world Hamas had fired over 1000 rockets at Israeli this year before this action began.

You must be a liberal posting this blather. I wonder what you think Israel's motivation is for this current action in Gaza? If they wanted the land they could easily exterminate the vermin that live there. If that was too harsh but they still could expel all the animals that live there and take it over. Yet they don't. They only ask that the terrorists there stop firing missiles at Israeli schoolchildren and civillians. The Israelis provide those people with food, power, aid and money. Years ago before the Hamas terrorists took over they even had access to plenty of jobs in Israel. The Muslims in Israel have more freedom and a higher quality of life then anywhere else in the Muslim world. They can vote. They are members of Israeli Parliament, Supreme Court and have generals in the Israeli army.

Yea you got me, I must be a liberal because i don't run around like a chicken without a head regurgitating idiotic conservatard and FOX news talking points.

The land they call "Israel" is occupied land. Second the Israelis started this current onslaught when they assassinated one of their own subcontractors who was working on a peace agreement. The current administrations motivation in sparking this war was the upcoming election and that's not just what I think, that's what quite a few Iraelis have gone on record stating.

Rabbi Brant Rosen summed it all up best.

Israel’s military assault on Gaza in 2008-09 represented an important turning point in my own relationship with Israel. I recall experiencing a new and previously unfamiliar feeling of anguish as Israel bombarded the people living in that tiny, besieged strip of land over and over, day after day after day. While I certainly felt a sense of tribal loyalty to the Israelis who withstood Qassam rocket fire from Gaza, I felt a newfound sense of concern and solidarity with Gazans who I believed were experiencing nothing short of oppression during this massive military onslaught.

And now it’s happening again. Only this time I don’t think the term “anguish” quite fits my mindset. Now it’s something much closer to rage.

It’s happening again. Once again 1.7 million people, mostly refugees, who have been living in what amounts to the world’s largest open air prison, are being subjected to a massive military assault at the hands of the world’s most militarized nation, using mostly US-made weapons. And our President is not only looking on – he is defending Israel’s onslaught by saying it has a right to “self-defense in light of the barrage of rocket attacks being launched from Gaza against Israeli civilians.”

Let’s be clear: this tragedy didn’t start with the Qassams. It didn’t start with the election of Hamas. And it didn’t start with the “instability” that followed Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza.

No, this is just the latest chapter of a much longer saga that began in 1947-48, when scores of Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from their cities and villages in the coastal plain and lower Galilee and warehoused in a tiny strip of land on the edge of the Mediterranean. By all accounts, most were simply too overwhelmed to realize what was happening. Some tried to return to their homes and were killed on sight. Others resisted by staging raids in the newly declared state of Israel. Sometimes they succeeded, more often they did not. Either way, Israel decided early on that it would respond to each of these reprisals with a overwhelming military show of force. And those reprisals and that show of force have essentially been ongoing until this very day.

I realize, of course, there is plenty of political subtext to this latest go-around. I’ve read the timelines and have formed my own opinions on the latest “who started it?” debate. I’ve also read plenty of analyses by Israeli observers who believe that this was not a response to Qassam fire at all but was very much a “war of choice” waged by an Israeli administration looking to shore up political support in an election season.

I’ve also read a widely circulated article from Ha’aretz about Israel’s recent execution of Ahmed Jabari (the head of Hamas’ military wing). I learned that up until now, Jabari was “Israel’s subcontractor” for security in the Gaza Strip, that Israel has been literally funding Hamas through intermediaries in exchange for peace and quiet on their southern border, and that when Jabari failed to deliver of late, the decision came down to take him out. Another article, written by the Israeli who negotiated with Jabari for the release of Gilad Shalit, revealed that negotiations were still ongoing between Jabari and Israeli officials when Israel assassinated him with a drone strike.

Yes, the wonky side of me has been avidly reading all these analyses. And while I do believe they provide an important counterbalance to the mythic statements by Israel’s Foreign Ministry and the US State Department, the more I read the cynical political subtext for this war, the sicker I get. No, this isn’t about Qassams, but don’t be fooled into thinking it’s about elections either. It’s really just the most recent chapter in a much longer litany of injustice – the latest attempt by Israel bring the Palestinians to their knees through the sheer force of their formidable military might.

Of all the analyses I’ve yet read, one of the very few that truly seemed to grasp this truth came from Yousef Munayyer, of The Jerusalem Fund/Palestine Center:

The problem Gaza presents for Israel is that it won’t go away—though Israel would love it if it would. It is a constant reminder of the depopulation of Palestine in 1948, the folly of the 1967 occupation, and the many massacres which have happened since them. It also places the Israelis in an uncomfortable position because it presents a problem (in the form of projectiles) which cannot be solved by force…

Israel has tried assassinating Palestinian leaders for decades but the resistance persists. Israel launched a devastating and brutal war on Gaza from 2008 to 2009 killing 1,400 people, mostly civilians, but the resistance persists.

Why, then, would Israel choose to revert to a failed strategy that will undoubtedly only escalate the situation? Because it is far easier for politicians to lie to voters, vilify their adversaries, and tell them ‘we will hit them hard’ than to come clean and say instead, ‘we’ve failed and there is no military solution to this problem.’

Like last time, I know many in the Jewish community will say it is unseemly of me to criticize Israel this way while Israelis live in fear of Qassam fire out of Gaza. I know there are those who believe that by writing these words, I’m turning my back on my own people in their time of need. But I know in my heart that my outrage at Israel’s actions goes hand in hand with compassion for Israelis – particularly those who know that their leaders’ devotion to the sword is leading them into the abyss.

Additionally, as I wrote under tragically similar circumstances in 2009:

I believe Israel’s response to Hamas’ missile attacks have been disproportionate and outrageous. I believe their actions only further endanger the security of Israelis while inflicting collective punishment and a severe humanitarian crisis upon Gazans. Indeed, just as I cannot understand what it must be like to be a citizen of Sderot, I cannot even begin to imagine what it must be like to be a Gazan citizen at the moment, living under constant air attack, with no running water or electricity and dwindling food, as hospitals fill up with wounded and corpses lie rotting in the streets because relief workers are unable to reach them.

When will we be ready to accept that this is not a “balanced” conflict or even a “war” by any reasonable definition – and that it never was? When will we face the painful truth that this is not a story about one side versus the other but about one side oppressing the other? Frankly, all the well-meaning liberal comments about “praying for peace on both sides” and leave me cold. Worse, I find them insidious because they simply serve to support the myth that this is a conflict between two equal parties. It is not. And peace will not come until we admit this – until we admit that there is an essential injustice at the heart of this tragedy and that try as it might, Israel will never be able to make it go away through the sheer force of its increasingly massive military might.

Beyond the rage, I’m heartened that this time around there is a growing community of conscience that is speaking out publicly and in no uncertain terms to protest Israel’s latest outrage in Gaza. I am so deeply grateful for my friends and colleagues at Jewish Voice for Peace, who is alone in the Jewish world in condemning this latest assault. I urge you to read JVP’s courageous statement, which I know gives voice to increasing numbers of Jews and non-Jews, young and old, religious and secular, who are coming together through the courage of their conscience.

At this point in my posts I would typically write “click here” to lend your voice to some kind of collective statement. I’m going resist that temptation and urge you instead to take to the streets.

I’ll see you there.

[chiefst2000]

Originally Posted by nyctomjetsfan

Yea you got me, I must be a liberal because i don't run around like a chicken without a head regurgitating idiotic conservatard and FOX news talking points.

The land they call "Israel" is occupied land. Second the Israelis started this current onslaught when they assassinated one of their own subcontractors who was working on a peace agreement. The current administrations motivation in sparking this war was the upcoming election and that's not just what I think, that's what quite a few Iraelis have gone on record stating.

Rabbi Brant Rosen summed it all up best.

You can quote whatever Israel hating "rabbi" you want. Doesn't make a word of what you believe true. People that think as you do that Israel is occupied land just because it exists are not worth discussing anything with. Your ignorance of history and the facts speaks for itself. I will correct your absurd statements here in for the good of anyone else that might click here to read about this conflict but I don't desire nor care about any response you may have.

[nyctomjetsfan]

Originally Posted by chiefst2000

You can quote whatever Israel hating "rabbi" you want. Doesn't make a word of what you believe true. People that think as you do that Israel is occupied land just because it exists are not worth discussing anything with. Your ignorance of history and the facts speaks for itself. I will correct your absurd statements here in for the good of anyone else that might click here to read about this conflict but I don't desire nor care about any response you may have.

I don't believe what I said is true, I know its true because unlike you I am a well educated man that doesn't depend on political affiliation to tell me what to think and feel.

You only look at this conflict from the eyes of an Israeli, you can't even acknowledge Palestinians are people. Those little children you see dead in videos and pictures are REAL, they're not TERRORISTS, they're not VERMIN. They are INNOCENT CHILDREN who are being massacred as we speak.

I've been to Gaza, spent three years there on a mission, I witnessed with my eyes what these people are going through. You'd might as well call Gaza a concentration camp. Two million people crammed into 140 square miles of extreme poverty, hunger, disease and the constant threat of annihilation. Yet you wonder why these people fight back? How would you feel if the sheriff decided tomorrow morning that he's going to evict you from your home to give it to some family whose great great grandfather used to live on the land and told you to setup living quarters for your family in the shed?

Lastly unlike you I don't take sides in this great calamity, I sympathize just as much with Israelis who have to deal with rockets flying over their heads. I don't blame Israel, I don't blame Palestine, I blame the sheriff who placed them in this mess.

I don't expect a high-grade partisan schmuck such as yourself to understand any of this.

[PlumberKhan]

Originally Posted by Axil

Any deaths of adult civilians stilling residing in the Gaza strip ought to be labeled suicides. Any deaths of Palestinian children, prolicide.

The same can be said about Israel.

I would have moved. A desert just isn't worth being killed over by goat herders.

But then they'd lose the wall to bang their heads on.

[chiefst2000]

Originally Posted by nyctomjetsfan

I don't believe what I said is true, I know its true because unlike you I am a well educated man that doesn't depend on political affiliation to tell me what to think and feel.

You only look at this conflict from the eyes of an Israeli, you can't even acknowledge Palestinians are people. Those little children you see dead in videos and pictures are REAL, they're not TERRORISTS, they're not VERMIN. They are INNOCENT CHILDREN who are being massacred as we speak.

I've been to Gaza, spent three years there on a mission, I witnessed with my eyes what these people are going through. You'd might as well call Gaza a concentration camp. Two million people crammed into 140 square miles of extreme poverty, hunger, disease and the constant threat of annihilation. Yet you wonder why these people fight back? How would you feel if the sheriff decided tomorrow morning that he's going to evict you from your home to give it to some family whose great great grandfather used to live on the land and told you to setup living quarters for your family in the shed?

Lastly unlike you I don't take sides in this great calamity, I sympathize just as much with Israelis who have to deal with rockets flying over their heads. I don't blame Israel, I don't blame Palestine, I blame the sheriff who placed them in this mess.

I don't expect a high-grade partisan schmuck such as yourself to understand any of this.

Give me a break. The Palestinians bring all of their problems onto themselves. Jerusalem has been a majority Jewish city going back as far as the early 1800's. When Hertzel and the Zionists started moving back there in the late 1800 there were less than 200,000 people living on the land in total. Among them were Jews Christians and Muslims. Most of what you call Palestinians were migrants from Egypt and other neighboring countries that went to work for Jewish settlers there in the late 1800's. Arafat himself was born in Cairo. Spare me your moral relativism. The children dead in your photograph have their parents and political leaders to blame for their deaths. The Palestinians have the chance at peace every day. The Israelis want it. They want to exist in a peaceful country. You and your ilk are the problem. Referring to Israel as occupied land is exactly the problem with the Palestinian point of view. They should accept that Israel isn't going away. They will never succeed in eradicating the land of the Jewish majority. Only when they come to accept that fact will they be ready for a real peace. In the meantime they can suffer the consequences of their actions and the actions of their freely elected Hamas government.

I commend you for going to Gaza to do your mission work. I suggest that now is a good time to go back there and help out. They are going to need you there.