Talent or No Talent - Its all on the coaches - Jets Insider.com Forums

MysticalJet · 11-24-2012, 09:06 AM

I am/was an avid supporter of Rex, but this season - and looking at the trend has really changed my thoughts. If you take the years Rex has been here, initially he took a Mangini team and brought them to the playoffs. But every year his team has gotten worse. I've always thought that when you change coaches, you really do not know what you have until year 3. In most cases, it takes that long before the new system takes effect, and players start playing and representing the new regime style. I'm ready for them to clean house GM down and move on.

You can argue lack of talent on this team but what we have seen on the field is not due to lack of talent.

The team plays sloppy, undisciplined football. The fundamentals are lacking - we can't tackle, dropped balls, missed blocks, not taking care of the football, blown assignments. Every week we hear how there was a mental mistake or blown assignment. This, to me, indicates an unorganized, undisciplined team that is not prepared - and this falls squarely on the coaching staff.

It is a culture, like a virus, that spreads year after year and we are now seeing special teams bit with the bug and Westoff has fallen into the mold. What is dangerous is that as we replace the veterans with younger players, talented players, and the Jets are setting them up for failure because their first and only experience in the pros is the unorganized, undisciplined chaos of Jets football.

Don't get me wrong, I think Rex could be a phenomenal defensive coordinator if that is all he had to focus on. I just don't think he has the capacity to be a head coach - not yet. He just isn't learning from his mistakes - call it stubbornness or just plain arrogance.

In any event, I really don't want to start over because it means several more rebuild years before we compete but I think we are at a crossroads right now - and the only way out is through creative destruction.

C Mart · 11-24-2012, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticalJet

I am/was an avid supporter of Rex, but this season - and looking at the trend has really changed my thoughts. If you take the years Rex has been here, initially he took a Mangini team and brought them to the playoffs. But every year his team has gotten worse. I've always thought that when you change coaches, you really do not know what you have until year 3. In most cases, it takes that long before the new system takes effect, and players start playing and representing the new regime style. I'm ready for them to clean house GM down and move on.

You can argue lack of talent on this team but what we have seen on the field is not due to lack of talent.

The team plays sloppy, undisciplined football. The fundamentals are lacking - we can't tackle, dropped balls, missed blocks, not taking care of the football, blown assignments. Every week we hear how there was a mental mistake or blown assignment. This, to me, indicates an unorganized, undisciplined team that is not prepared - and this falls squarely on the coaching staff.

It is a culture, like a virus, that spreads year after year and we are now seeing special teams bit with the bug and Westoff has fallen into the mold. What is dangerous is that as we replace the veterans with younger players, talented players, and the Jets are setting them up for failure because their first and only experience in the pros is the unorganized, undisciplined chaos of Jets football.

Don't get me wrong, I think Rex could be a phenomenal defensive coordinator if that is all he had to focus on. I just don't think he has the capacity to be a head coach - not yet. He just isn't learning from his mistakes - call it stubbornness or just plain arrogance.

In any event, I really don't want to start over because it means several more rebuild years before we compete but I think we are at a crossroads right now - and the only way out is through creative destruction.

Welcome aboard

Seagirt · 11-24-2012, 10:07 AM

=[ "You can argue lack of talent on this team but what we have seen on the field is not due to lack of talent.

The team plays sloppy, undisciplined football. The fundamentals are lacking - we can't tackle, dropped balls, missed blocks, not taking care of the football, blown assignments. Every week we hear how there was a mental mistake or blown assignment. This, to me, indicates an unorganized, undisciplined team that is not prepared - and this falls squarely on the coaching staff.

It is a culture, like a virus, that spreads year after year and we are now seeing special teams bit with the bug and Westoff has fallen into the mold. What is dangerous is that as we replace the veterans with younger players, talented players, and the Jets are setting them up for failure because their first and only experience in the pros is the unorganized, undisciplined chaos of Jets football.

Don't get me wrong, I think Rex could be a phenomenal defensive coordinator if that is all he had to focus on. I just don't think he has the capacity to be a head coach - not yet. He just isn't learning from his mistakes - call it stubbornness or just plain arrogance. " ]

...Yes, Mr. MysticalJet; I have stated much the same for 12+ months now.
Rex Ryan inherited a team filled with quality , tough Mangini era players and ran in down. Certainly , Personnel decisions have gone into it... i.e getting rid of Jerricho Cotchery, Braylon Edwards; Dwight Lowery, Leon Washington, also..... replacements for T-Rich and Thomas Jones were not up to par.

JetsNeedNewton · 11-24-2012, 10:24 AM

4 years of coaching has only led to Sanchez being worse... 3 years to get Ducasse to the point he could even be rotated into a game... The list goes on. I totally agree it's all on the coaches and FO.

Demote tranny to number cruncher and Ryan to DC, maybe bring back Tuna as GM. I have no idea what to do about a new head coach, but I bet Tuna would.

auctionking · 11-24-2012, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetsNeedNewton

4 years of coaching has only led to Sanchez being worse... 3 years to get Ducasse to the point he could even be rotated into a game... The list goes on. I totally agree it's all on the coaches and FO.

Demote tranny to number cruncher and Ryan to DC, maybe bring back Tuna as GM. I have no idea what to do about a new head coach, but I bet Tuna would.

No Tuna ,Remember he is the guy that hired Sparano as a head coach in Miami. My only question is which Ryan brother gets fired first Rex or Rob?

MysticalJet · 11-24-2012, 01:45 PM

It all starts with the GM. Tanny has had more than enough time to get this right. Several Coaches later, we are no better (if not worse) than where we started.

TheBlairThomasFumble · 11-24-2012, 03:02 PM

Hard to disagree with you about coaching.

JetsNeedNewton · 11-24-2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by auctionking

No Tuna ,Remember he is the guy that hired Sparano as a head coach in Miami. My only question is which Ryan brother gets fired first Rex or Rob?

I'm not sure we can judge Sparano at this point, given what he has to work with. I'm even starting to second guess myself on Shotty... maybe all those 3rd and 12 2yard passes were there because its the best he thought Sanchez could do.

C Mart · 11-24-2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticalJet

It all starts with the GM. Tanny has had more than enough time to get this right. Several Coaches later, we are no better (if not worse) than where we started.

Well technically two HCs.

Charlie Brown · 11-24-2012, 03:25 PM

Despite the constant refrains that the Mangini era was a time when we were loaded with talent nothing could be further from the truth.

The Jets since Big Al was here have had average talent. Mangini didn't have a team load for bear like today's 49er team. Jets fans continually act like the Jets are actually better than we are.

The problem with today's Jets is that the talent level even excluding Sanchez horrid play is just putrid. There were actually some fans who have had the gall to suggest on some threads out here that these Jets are the most talented Jets team over he last 40 years!!!! No, you can't make it up.

The coaching and actual develoment of players has been abysmal. How this FO in good conscience could surround a below average performing QB with ever decreasing talent around him and somehow think it would all just work out is mind boggling.

This level of what could only be termed a type of benign neglect has to be addressed immediately by the dismissal of Tannyboob. The buck has to stop somewhere and you can't fire the owner so the GM has to go!!!!

Jetworks · 11-24-2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticalJet

I am/was an avid supporter of Rex, but this season - and looking at the trend has really changed my thoughts. If you take the years Rex has been here, initially he took a Mangini team and brought them to the playoffs. But every year his team has gotten worse. I've always thought that when you change coaches, you really do not know what you have until year 3. In most cases, it takes that long before the new system takes effect, and players start playing and representing the new regime style. I'm ready for them to clean house GM down and move on.

You can argue lack of talent on this team but what we have seen on the field is not due to lack of talent.

The team plays sloppy, undisciplined football. The fundamentals are lacking - we can't tackle, dropped balls, missed blocks, not taking care of the football, blown assignments. Every week we hear how there was a mental mistake or blown assignment. This, to me, indicates an unorganized, undisciplined team that is not prepared - and this falls squarely on the coaching staff.

It is a culture, like a virus, that spreads year after year and we are now seeing special teams bit with the bug and Westoff has fallen into the mold. What is dangerous is that as we replace the veterans with younger players, talented players, and the Jets are setting them up for failure because their first and only experience in the pros is the unorganized, undisciplined chaos of Jets football.

Don't get me wrong, I think Rex could be a phenomenal defensive coordinator if that is all he had to focus on. I just don't think he has the capacity to be a head coach - not yet. He just isn't learning from his mistakes - call it stubbornness or just plain arrogance.

In any event, I really don't want to start over because it means several more rebuild years before we compete but I think we are at a crossroads right now - and the only way out is through creative destruction.

I agree, especially with the bold. Outstanding post.

C Mart · 11-24-2012, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Brown

Despite the constant refrains that the Mangini era was a time when we were loaded with talent nothing could be further from the truth.

The Jets since Big Al was here have had average talent. Mangini didn't have a team load for bear like today's 49er team. Jets fans continually act like the Jets are actually better than we are.

The problem with today's Jets is that the talent level even excluding Sanchez horrid play is just putrid. There were actually some fans who have had the gall to suggest on some threads out here that these Jets are the most talented Jets team over he last 40 years!!!! No, you can't make it up.

The coaching and actual develoment of players has been abysmal. How this FO in good conscience could surround a below average performing QB with ever decreasing talent around him and somehow think it would all just work out is mind boggling.

This level of what could only be termed a type of benign neglect has to be addressed immediately by the dismissal of Tannyboob. The buck has to stop somewhere and you can't fire the owner so the GM has to go!!!!

Edit

MysticalJet · 11-24-2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Mart

Well technically two HCs.

Herm, Mangini, Rex - three right?

sameoldjets · 11-24-2012, 03:53 PM

imo there's a lot of truth here. tanny is not a true football guy in the way that ron wolf or newsome or donohoe, or many of the highly rated gm's are. he's a contracts guy and while he oversees his scouts to find players how much doe he really know about building a team or maintaining a team? is he relying on rex to make the football decisions? so here's where it all goes bad because you tanny bringing in the players that rex wants and letting rex make all the football moves but rex is too much of a players coach to really be hard on his players. hence the lack of on field discipline and fumbles and penalties and everything else. there really needs to be someone else in the loop that calls the shots regarding team makeup and building. let rex concentrate on the x's and o's. let someone else handle finding the talent and creating the team philosophy and let tanny manage the contracts.

C Mart · 11-24-2012, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticalJet

Herm, Mangini, Rex - three right?

Herm was Bradways.

MysticalJet · 11-24-2012, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Mart

Herm was Bradways.

ahh that's right.

w0mbat · 11-24-2012, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Mart

Herm was Bradways.

So was Mangini

MysticalJet · 11-24-2012, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by w0mbat

So was Mangini

Hell then his track record is even worse than I thought. I was giving him more credit than he should have.

C Mart · 11-24-2012, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by w0mbat

So was Mangini

No he wasn't. Tanny became GM when Mangini was named HC. Bradway went back to scouting/player personnel

Jerricho89 · 11-24-2012, 07:00 PM

I disagree about the talent getting worse every year. The 2010 team was much better than 2009 - they added Holmes, Cro and LT, and went on to go 13-6. The big drop off was 2011 when they lost Braylon, Cotchery, Brad Smith, Damien Woody, and LT had nothing left in the tank.

Going forward, there is still a nucleus of good players to build around; they just need to get a few difference makers thru FA, trades, and 1st round of draft.

11-24-2012, 09:06 AM	#1
MysticalJet Rookie Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NC in the Hizzy Posts: 902	Talent or No Talent - Its all on the coaches I am/was an avid supporter of Rex, but this season - and looking at the trend has really changed my thoughts. If you take the years Rex has been here, initially he took a Mangini team and brought them to the playoffs. But every year his team has gotten worse. I've always thought that when you change coaches, you really do not know what you have until year 3. In most cases, it takes that long before the new system takes effect, and players start playing and representing the new regime style. I'm ready for them to clean house GM down and move on. You can argue lack of talent on this team but what we have seen on the field is not due to lack of talent. The team plays sloppy, undisciplined football. The fundamentals are lacking - we can't tackle, dropped balls, missed blocks, not taking care of the football, blown assignments. Every week we hear how there was a mental mistake or blown assignment. This, to me, indicates an unorganized, undisciplined team that is not prepared - and this falls squarely on the coaching staff. It is a culture, like a virus, that spreads year after year and we are now seeing special teams bit with the bug and Westoff has fallen into the mold. What is dangerous is that as we replace the veterans with younger players, talented players, and the Jets are setting them up for failure because their first and only experience in the pros is the unorganized, undisciplined chaos of Jets football. Don't get me wrong, I think Rex could be a phenomenal defensive coordinator if that is all he had to focus on. I just don't think he has the capacity to be a head coach - not yet. He just isn't learning from his mistakes - call it stubbornness or just plain arrogance. In any event, I really don't want to start over because it means several more rebuild years before we compete but I think we are at a crossroads right now - and the only way out is through creative destruction.

11-24-2012, 10:07 AM	#3
Seagirt Rookie Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 564	REX HAS RUN THE TEAM DOWN WITH LACK OF DISCIPLINE, PERSONNEL CHOICES =[ "You can argue lack of talent on this team but what we have seen on the field is not due to lack of talent. The team plays sloppy, undisciplined football. The fundamentals are lacking - we can't tackle, dropped balls, missed blocks, not taking care of the football, blown assignments. Every week we hear how there was a mental mistake or blown assignment. This, to me, indicates an unorganized, undisciplined team that is not prepared - and this falls squarely on the coaching staff. It is a culture, like a virus, that spreads year after year and we are now seeing special teams bit with the bug and Westoff has fallen into the mold. What is dangerous is that as we replace the veterans with younger players, talented players, and the Jets are setting them up for failure because their first and only experience in the pros is the unorganized, undisciplined chaos of Jets football. Don't get me wrong, I think Rex could be a phenomenal defensive coordinator if that is all he had to focus on. I just don't think he has the capacity to be a head coach - not yet. He just isn't learning from his mistakes - call it stubbornness or just plain arrogance. " ] ...Yes, Mr. MysticalJet; I have stated much the same for 12+ months now. Rex Ryan inherited a team filled with quality , tough Mangini era players and ran in down. Certainly , Personnel decisions have gone into it... i.e getting rid of Jerricho Cotchery, Braylon Edwards; Dwight Lowery, Leon Washington, also..... replacements for T-Rich and Thomas Jones were not up to par. Last edited by Seagirt; 11-24-2012 at 10:10 AM. Reason: spell

11-24-2012, 10:24 AM	#4
JetsNeedNewton Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 1,673	4 years of coaching has only led to Sanchez being worse... 3 years to get Ducasse to the point he could even be rotated into a game... The list goes on. I totally agree it's all on the coaches and FO. Demote tranny to number cruncher and Ryan to DC, maybe bring back Tuna as GM. I have no idea what to do about a new head coach, but I bet Tuna would.

11-24-2012, 01:45 PM	#6
MysticalJet Rookie Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NC in the Hizzy Posts: 902	It all starts with the GM. Tanny has had more than enough time to get this right. Several Coaches later, we are no better (if not worse) than where we started.

11-24-2012, 03:02 PM	#7
TheBlairThomasFumble Blames Tanny for 90% of this mess. Practice Squad Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 438	Hard to disagree with you about coaching.

11-24-2012, 03:25 PM	#10
Charlie Brown Please Pray for the Safety of Everyone!!! Jets Insider VIP Join Date: May 1999 Location: New York City Posts: 5,508	Despite the constant refrains that the Mangini era was a time when we were loaded with talent nothing could be further from the truth. The Jets since Big Al was here have had average talent. Mangini didn't have a team load for bear like today's 49er team. Jets fans continually act like the Jets are actually better than we are. The problem with today's Jets is that the talent level even excluding Sanchez horrid play is just putrid. There were actually some fans who have had the gall to suggest on some threads out here that these Jets are the most talented Jets team over he last 40 years!!!! No, you can't make it up. The coaching and actual develoment of players has been abysmal. How this FO in good conscience could surround a below average performing QB with ever decreasing talent around him and somehow think it would all just work out is mind boggling. This level of what could only be termed a type of benign neglect has to be addressed immediately by the dismissal of Tannyboob. The buck has to stop somewhere and you can't fire the owner so the GM has to go!!!!

11-24-2012, 03:53 PM	#14
sameoldjets All Pro Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,477	imo there's a lot of truth here. tanny is not a true football guy in the way that ron wolf or newsome or donohoe, or many of the highly rated gm's are. he's a contracts guy and while he oversees his scouts to find players how much doe he really know about building a team or maintaining a team? is he relying on rex to make the football decisions? so here's where it all goes bad because you tanny bringing in the players that rex wants and letting rex make all the football moves but rex is too much of a players coach to really be hard on his players. hence the lack of on field discipline and fumbles and penalties and everything else. there really needs to be someone else in the loop that calls the shots regarding team makeup and building. let rex concentrate on the x's and o's. let someone else handle finding the talent and creating the team philosophy and let tanny manage the contracts.

11-24-2012, 07:00 PM	#20
Jerricho89 Veteran Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,348	I disagree about the talent getting worse every year. The 2010 team was much better than 2009 - they added Holmes, Cro and LT, and went on to go 13-6. The big drop off was 2011 when they lost Braylon, Cotchery, Brad Smith, Damien Woody, and LT had nothing left in the tank. Going forward, there is still a nucleus of good players to build around; they just need to get a few difference makers thru FA, trades, and 1st round of draft.