Stephen Hill today

[dmitexxi]

Originally Posted by southside

Seriously, take the 1st game of the season out of the equation.

He's got 16 catches for 163 yards in 11 games. That sucks. That's a bust pick.

But to some, this is improvement. That's like saying Gholston improved when he finally got to start a game in the NFL. It was better than he was doing before....

not good numbers, but hes a rookie and had his shares of drops. Lets not also call out homerism while you obv have soj syndrome... Truth is our QB's sucks, OC sucks, and Offensive game plans suck too.

[Rexipus Rex]

Originally Posted by southside

Hill was the opening day #2 option. Kerley was in the doghouse. So I'm talking specifically about the fact that Hill is getting a lot more playing time and targets than Thomas got his rookie year. Again, I'm not even the guy that made the comparison, you did. I'm saying it has no basis in the comparison!

However, you want to make an apples to apples comparison? Fine.

Demaryius Thomas - Sr season at GT: 82 receptions, 1,234 yards (lol that's kind of funny), 10 TDs.

Stephen Hill - Jr season at GT: 28 receptions, 820 yards, 5 TDs.

That's not the same type of player at all. There is no comparison.

You're also neglecting the fact that Keller is in essence a target in the passing game whereas Denver never had a TE involved in the passing game during that time.

How about we compare Thomas's JUNIOR season with Hill's JUNIOR season since Hill did not play as a senior. That might be a little fairer:

Thomas: 39 receptions, 629 yards (16.1 YPR); 3 TDs

Hill: 28 receptions, 820 yds (29.3 YPR); 5 TDs


Why are these numbers a lot closer than you are letting on?

[southside]

Originally Posted by Rexipus Rex

You're also neglecting the fact that Keller is in essence a target in the passing game whereas Denver never had a TE involved in the passing game during that time.

How about we compare Thomas's JUNIOR season with Hill's JUNIOR season since Hill did not play as a senior. That might be a little fairer:

Thomas: 39 receptions, 629 yards (16.1 YPR); 3 TDs

Hill: 28 receptions, 820 yds (29.3 YPR); 5 TDs


Why are these numbers a lot closer than you are letting on?

How about we compare their last season at GT before they entered the draft?

Unless you're trying to tell me that Stephen Hill is a full year of COLLEGE DEVELOPMENT behind Thomas which would make him about 4 years out from actually putting up Thomas' numbers.... that makes this even more alarming!

Either way, they are NOT the same type of player. At all. Their stats indicate this.

[Rexipus Rex]

Originally Posted by southside

How about we compare their last season at GT before they entered the draft?

Unless you're trying to tell me that Stephen Hill is a full year of COLLEGE DEVELOPMENT behind Thomas which would make him about 4 years out from actually putting up Thomas' numbers.... that makes this even more alarming!

Either way, they are NOT the same type of player. At all. Their stats indicate this.

Because if you're going to chart development, the guy who gets a fourth year in the same level of competition is typically going to have better production than a guy who doesn't.

My point is that you cannot hold it against Hill for leaving a year early. I compared their junior year college numbers and rookie year pro numbers and proved the numbers are virtually identical. I don't see what is so "alarming" about that.

Both guys did not immediately adjust to the game. You're willing to write one of them off even though he put up identical rookie numbers to the other. I have shown you the stats, but somehow your "historical data" (which isn't even data at all btw) proves that Thomas is one of those anomalies to your "9 out of 10 bust" theory.

[jp5002]

I think what southside is saying is that D Thomas was drafted after his senior year based on what he accomplished and how he played. Hill was drafted based on his physical gifts and potential. Has nothing to do with them developing. That's what I got out of it anyways.

[southside]

Originally Posted by Rexipus Rex

Because if you're going to chart development, the guy who gets a fourth year in the same level of competition is typically going to have better production than a guy who doesn't.

My point is that you cannot hold it against Hill for leaving a year early. I compared their junior year college numbers and rookie year pro numbers and proved the numbers are virtually identical. I don't see what is so "alarming" about that.

Both guys did not immediately adjust to the game. You're willing to write one of them off even though he put up identical rookie numbers to the other. I have shown you the stats, but somehow your "historical data" (which isn't even data at all btw) proves that Thomas is one of those anomalies to your "9 out of 10 bust" theory.

I'm not writing anyone off. I'm saying the odds are against him, heavily. And I'm saying right now I have every reason and justification for saying this kid sucks and is on the career pattern of, "Another Tanny Bust".

I'm not wrong. You just don't like my opinion that I don't think Hill is going to succeed. If he does, I'll be there happily rooting him on. However, he doesn't look capable of anything that resembles 2nd round WR. It's the position with the highest bust rate, period.

Here are the facts, not the projections or the fantasy comparisons. Right now:

He can't catch.
He can't run routes at an NFL level.
He can't chose when to run the correct route.

I have every right to be disappointed with him. His play has sucked. I was excited after game 1. Looked like it was a great pick. Now in Week 13 it's pretty apparent that we reached on a player trying to hit the lottery. And if you are attempting to say we can develop this player, are you REALLY CONFIDENT in the coaching staff to do this? I am not. If this kid needs additional development then I'm quite positive he isn't going to get it with the New York Jets.

[southside]

Originally Posted by jp5002

I think what southside is saying is that D Thomas was drafted after his senior year based on what he accomplished and how he played. Hill was drafted based on his physical gifts and potential. Has nothing to do with them developing. That's what I got out of it anyways.

Exactly.

Thomas actually showed that he could make 8+ receptions, 100 yards, and a TD per game.
Stephen Hill never showed that. Ever.

If anything (and based on Tanny's admitted reasoning/defense of drafting him) Hill is riding the coattails of Johnson and Thomas without ever showing he could make those plays. He cut his own development short and you can see it's seriously affected him mental game. He's lost. Swimming. Dropping wide open passes. And seriously suffering in confidence.

Can he get better? Absolutely. Never once did I say he couldn't.
Do I think he'll get better? I'm not that optimistic based on what I've seen and I'm certainly not in the camp of excitement because he caught 5 passes for 40 yards. At some point you have to look at what you see on the field and separate the emotion. I think he's an awesome kid, smart and a high character guy with a great work ethic. He has that going for him. I guess there's a reason to believe he'll get better.

But let's get realistic here, his play this year has been absolutely dreadful!

[Scoop24]

Originally Posted by southside

I'm not writing anyone off. I'm saying the odds are against him, heavily. And I'm saying right now I have every reason and justification for saying this kid sucks and is on the career pattern of, "Another Tanny Bust".

I'm not wrong. You just don't like my opinion that I don't think Hill is going to succeed. If he does, I'll be there happily rooting him on. However, he doesn't look capable of anything that resembles 2nd round WR. It's the position with the highest bust rate, period.

Here are the facts, not the projections or the fantasy comparisons. Right now:

He can't catch.
He can't run routes at an NFL level.
He can't chose when to run the correct route.

I have every right to be disappointed with him. His play has sucked. I was excited after game 1. Looked like it was a great pick. Now in Week 13 it's pretty apparent that we reached on a player trying to hit the lottery. And if you are attempting to say we can develop this player, are you REALLY CONFIDENT in the coaching staff to do this? I am not. If this kid needs additional development then I'm quite positive he isn't going to get it with the New York Jets.

Can you show me in the playbook where he isn't running the correct routes? Since u know the plays..

Now I agree his route running needs work from technique stand point but even so he gets open consistently every week. So he will only get better.

[revischrist]

Originally Posted by southside

Exactly.


But let's get realistic here, his play this year has been absolutely dreadful!

Let's be more realistic. If he was on a real team, he would be working his way, slowly, into the lineup. And hopefully by next year be a

The problem with Hill is that he is VERY raw so the game is probably going extremely fast for him. What's my route, what's the hot read, where am i supposed to be.... With all that going through his head, the drops are a natural consquence.

If was on a team with real WR's he would be seeing 1/4 the snaps and working his way into the lineup. THe problem is that the Jets picked a kid that was raw and expected him to step in right away.

Like i have said earilier, he has the speed/size/desire of a great WR. I have seen too many players go through a sharp learning curve and eventually come out as pro bowlers. I'm not going to give up on him just yet.

[southside]

Originally Posted by Scoop24

Can you show me in the playbook where he isn't running the correct routes? Since u know the plays..

Now I agree his route running needs work from technique stand point but even so he gets open consistently every week. So he will only get better.

I can tell you that Stephen Hill decided to run a go route yesterday when he was expected to run a 5 yard curl. I can tell you that Rex, Tony, and Mark have made comments about the WRs not being where they are expected to be.

Cute jab at the obvious fact that I don't have the Jets offensive play book.

[Scoop24]

Originally Posted by jp5002

I think what southside is saying is that D Thomas was drafted after his senior year based on what he accomplished and how he played. Hill was drafted based on his physical gifts and potential. Has nothing to do with them developing. That's what I got out of it anyways.

So he left early didn't have 80 catch season. And still putting up similar numbers to Thomas rookie year?

[Scoop24]

Originally Posted by southside

I can tell you that Stephen Hill decided to run a go route yesterday when he was expected to run a 5 yard curl. I can tell you that Rex, Tony, and Mark have made comments about the WRs not being where they are expected to be.

Cute jab at the obvious fact that I don't have the Jets offensive play book.

You mean the same play where mark clearly said my fault ?

It's not a jab I just know how to spot bs.. Like making fake claims with no proof or evidence to back it up.

[eaglenj]

Originally Posted by Scoop24

Can you show me in the playbook where he isn't running the correct routes? Since u know the plays..

Now I agree his route running needs work from technique stand point but even so he gets open consistently every week. So he will only get better.

Hill has been WIDE OPEN on multiple occasions this year, except mark doesnt trust him and locks on to 1 WR and doesnt look coverage off.

I wonder what Hills numbers will look like if we have a QB that can actually keep his eyes open down the field and hit a second option.

The drops are an issue, and a pretty big one, but his route running is not. Getting off the line at his size isnt easy and is something that will come with time.

[Rexipus Rex]

Before I reply to the rest, let me just state that we are each entitled to our own opinion and I respect yours. Only time will tell with Hill. Here is where I'm struggling to make a connection with what you're saying, however...

Originally Posted by southside

I'm not writing anyone off. I'm saying the odds are against him, heavily. And I'm saying right now I have every reason and justification for saying this kid sucks and is on the career pattern of, "Another Tanny Bust".

I'm not wrong. You just don't like my opinion that I don't think Hill is going to succeed. If he does, I'll be there happily rooting him on. However, he doesn't look capable of anything that resembles 2nd round WR. It's the position with the highest bust rate, period.

As stated before, I respect your opinion. It's not that I don't like your opinion, it's just that I think there is some flawed logic in what you're saying.

Originally Posted by southside

Here are the facts, not the projections or the fantasy comparisons. Right now:

He can't catch.
He can't run routes at an NFL level.
He can't chose when to run the correct route.

I have every right to be disappointed with him. His play has sucked. I was excited after game 1. Looked like it was a great pick. Now in Week 13 it's pretty apparent that we reached on a player trying to hit the lottery. And if you are attempting to say we can develop this player, are you REALLY CONFIDENT in the coaching staff to do this? I am not. If this kid needs additional development then I'm quite positive he isn't going to get it with the New York Jets.

One of the things Jets fans were pleased with (myself included as well as a very objective and often critical poster in DDNY) in regards to Hill yesterday was that he demonstrated marked improvement in the catching department.

This isn't some, "WOOHOO! He didn't drop one today!" type of comment.

What we saw as fans was Hill making four of his five catches away from his body and using his wide catching radius. The body catching was a complaint by many fans and yesterday was an example of growth in that department.

Originally Posted by southside

Thomas actually showed that he could make 8+ receptions, 100 yards, and a TD per game.
Stephen Hill never showed that. Ever.

Both showed that flash in their rookie years even if it was only in one game. Thomas had a 8/98/1 game his rookie year and Hill had a 5/89/2 game his rookie year. Other than those single games, both Thomas and Hill were pretty nondescript as rookies.

If you're referring to Thomas's ability to do that now, I have no idea how you can hold that against Hill. At least give the guy an opportunity to see his third year before you can use that argument against him.

And my whole point between Thomas and Hill is that they put up similar numbers their junior years and even more similar numbers their rookie years. It all goes back to where they were drafted. If Thomas left a year early, he'd have been a 2nd round pick; if Hill stays another year, he's likely a first rounder a la Thomas.

Originally Posted by southside

If anything (and based on Tanny's admitted reasoning/defense of drafting him) Hill is riding the coattails of Johnson and Thomas without ever showing he could make those plays. He cut his own development short and you can see it's seriously affected him mental game. He's lost. Swimming. Dropping wide open passes. And seriously suffering in confidence.

Can he get better? Absolutely. Never once did I say he couldn't.
Do I think he'll get better? I'm not that optimistic based on what I've seen and I'm certainly not in the camp of excitement because he caught 5 passes for 40 yards. At some point you have to look at what you see on the field and separate the emotion. I think he's an awesome kid, smart and a high character guy with a great work ethic. He has that going for him. I guess there's a reason to believe he'll get better.

But let's get realistic here, his play this year has been absolutely dreadful!

Look, I get your first point here. Just because Calvin and Demaryius have succeeded, it doesn't mean Hill will. But my point is that Demaryius and Hill have a lot more in common than playing at the same college. Their production has been similar.

I also don't have any clue with what your expectations were for Hill this year. That's probably the biggest thing you need to sort through. I am not accusing you of this, but I saw some wildly unrealistic predictions for Hill this year. FWIW, this is what I predicted for Hill (assuming 16 games):

35 catches, 550 yards, 4 TD

He has missed a few games this year, but his per game totals are about on par with what I predicted. The only thing that hasn't lived up to the billing has been the YPR.

I think the biggest difference between you and me is that I'm far more confident the kid will improve. He's one of the youngest guys in the whole league (still 21), he has amazing physical gifts, and most importantly, he's a good kid with a strong work ethic. When you have the combination of those three things, I tend to be more optimistic than pessimistic.

[thshadow]

Originally Posted by southside

Unless you're trying to tell me that Stephen Hill is a full year of COLLEGE DEVELOPMENT behind Thomas

You realize that Thomas was drafted at 22, while Hill was drafted at 43?

I think Hill looks well behind Calvin Johnson too... Tanny is such an idiot!!

[southside]

Originally Posted by revischrist

Let's be more realistic. If he was on a real team, he would be working his way, slowly, into the lineup. And hopefully by next year be a

The problem with Hill is that he is VERY raw so the game is probably going extremely fast for him. What's my route, what's the hot read, where am i supposed to be.... With all that going through his head, the drops are a natural consquence.

If was on a team with real WR's he would be seeing 1/4 the snaps and working his way into the lineup. THe problem is that the Jets picked a kid that was raw and expected him to step in right away.

Like i have said earilier, he has the speed/size/desire of a great WR. I have seen too many players go through a sharp learning curve and eventually come out as pro bowlers. I'm not going to give up on him just yet.

I'm not giving up on him. I'm saying, right now, he sucks. And optimism for me isn't a 5 catch 40 yard game. Because we're setting the bar so low for this kid I guess anything short of, "well he didn't drop that one" is considered progress. I am also saying that based on how our drafted players have panned out, I'm not holding any optimism that this kid will get where he needs to be.

However I agree. He's swimming. But that doesn't excuse dropping a 5 yard pass that hits you directly in the hands when you are wide open. That's not mental. That's just bad hands. You can look at the way he tries to catch the ball sometimes and his technique is just flat out wrong. These things can be coached. I agree. But having bad hands isn't an easy fix. There are players that dropped passes and turned it around. Jerry Rice is the most glaring example. But this kid has never shown he can catch the ball in college.

Lets be honest here guys:

In his entire 3 year career at GT he has 49 catches for 1,248 yards.

That to me screams that a player couldn't get open on a consistent basis unless he was running a fly pattern. High yards per catch, low amount of receptions. His stats indicate he's a one dimensional player. His current play show that because he has only 49 receptions in his entire college career it would have been hard to see that he has horrible hands... most likely because he only catches one type of pass, the deep ball. That's my opinion and analysis and it could be totally wrong. But I at least have a basis for my opinion other than what OTHER PLAYERS have done.

[southside]

Originally Posted by southside

I'm not giving up on him. I'm saying, right now, he sucks. And optimism for me isn't a 5 catch 40 yard game. Because we're setting the bar so low for this kid I guess anything short of, "well he didn't drop that one" is considered progress. I am also saying that based on how our drafted players have panned out, I'm not holding any optimism that this kid will get where he needs to be.

However I agree. He's swimming. But that doesn't excuse dropping a 5 yard pass that hits you directly in the hands when you are wide open. That's not mental. That's just bad hands. You can look at the way he tries to catch the ball sometimes and his technique is just flat out wrong. These things can be coached. I agree. But having bad hands isn't an easy fix. There are players that dropped passes and turned it around. Jerry Rice is the most glaring example. But this kid has never shown he can catch the ball in college.

Lets be honest here guys:

In his entire 3 year career at GT he has 49 catches for 1,248 yards.

That to me screams that a player couldn't get open on a consistent basis unless he was running a fly pattern. High yards per catch, low amount of receptions. His stats indicate he's a one dimensional player. His current play show that because he has only 49 receptions in his entire college career it would have been hard to see that he has horrible hands... most likely because he only catches one type of pass, the deep ball. That's my opinion and analysis and it could be totally wrong. But I at least have a basis for my opinion other than what OTHER PLAYERS have done.

Call it bullsh!t. That's fine. At least I have the balls to state why I think he sucks and he isn't going to get better even with coaching and time. Everyone else points to other players as to why Hill would be better... which is not based on anything other than hope. Thomas caught twice as many passes as a senior than Hill did in 3 years. Yet he's the reason why some of you are telling me I'm an idiot.

This is the last thing I'm going to say about it. Quote me all you want. Keep stating I'm a moron. That's fine. I've said all I need to say in this thread. No need to repeat it a thousand times.

[Scoop24]

Originally Posted by southside

I'm not giving up on him. I'm saying, right now, he sucks. And optimism for me isn't a 5 catch 40 yard game. Because we're setting the bar so low for this kid I guess anything short of, "well he didn't drop that one" is considered progress. I am also saying that based on how our drafted players have panned out, I'm not holding any optimism that this kid will get where he needs to be.

However I agree. He's swimming. But that doesn't excuse dropping a 5 yard pass that hits you directly in the hands when you are wide open. That's not mental. That's just bad hands. You can look at the way he tries to catch the ball sometimes and his technique is just flat out wrong. These things can be coached. I agree. But having bad hands isn't an easy fix. There are players that dropped passes and turned it around. Jerry Rice is the most glaring example. But this kid has never shown he can catch the ball in college.

Lets be honest here guys:

In his entire 3 year career at GT he has 49 catches for 1,248 yards.

That to me screams that a player couldn't get open on a consistent basis unless he was running a fly pattern. High yards per catch, low amount of receptions. His stats indicate he's a one dimensional player. His current play show that because he has only 49 receptions in his entire college career it would have been hard to see that he has horrible hands... most likely because he only catches one type of pass, the deep ball. That's my opinion and analysis and it could be totally wrong. But I at least have a basis for my opinion other than what OTHER PLAYERS have done.

Yes his whole career in a triple option offense and with guy like Reggie ball as his qb.

And Thomas did catch way more balls his senior year .. How did that help him as a rookie?

[southside]

Originally Posted by Scoop24

Yes his whole career in a triple option offense and with guy like Reggie ball as his qb.

And Thomas did catch way more balls his senior year .. How did that help him as a rookie?

Dude, really? You're calling me out and you don't even know that Reggie Ball was Calvin Johnson's QB and a SR in 2006? Really?

SMH.

[GreeneWarMachine]

Originally Posted by southside

Lets be honest here guys:

In his entire 3 year career at GT he has 49 catches for 1,248 yards.

That to me screams that a player couldn't get open on a consistent basis unless he was running a fly pattern. High yards per catch, low amount of receptions. His stats indicate he's a one dimensional player. His current play show that because he has only 49 receptions in his entire college career it would have been hard to see that he has horrible hands... most likely because he only catches one type of pass, the deep ball. That's my opinion and analysis and it could be totally wrong. But I at least have a basis for my opinion other than what OTHER PLAYERS have done.

You don't know anything about Georgia Tech do you? They run the triple-option offense and very rarely do they throw the ball. Here's the OVERALL pass attempt TOTALS for EVERY georgia tech qb for the ENTIRE season by year during Hill's tenure:

2011:167 pass attempts
2010:168 pass attempts
2009:168 pass attempts

Only Army, Navy, and Air Force had less pass attempts (in the FBS) in those years. Good luck trying to get catches when they never throw the ball...

Also, D. Thomas was hogging up 46 passes for Hill's freshman year.