Elementary School Shooting In CT....

[IHATEDOLPHINS]

Originally Posted by Borgoguy

See, your observation is germane on two levels. First, let the legislators, supported by research from their various staff, begin to understand what "automatic weapon" means, as well as their killing potential.

But, more importantly, let them begin the dialog toward creating some sort of action plan. Right now, I will almost guarantee, that in a few weeks all the consternation and outrage shown by the general public will dissipate. And, once again, any serious discussion will be put on the back burner until the next tragedy.

This morning, on CBS's Sunday Morning, a reporter mentioned that sales of guns this past Black Friday was the single largest ever. I don't remember the exact number, but was in the order of 280,000 guns. Let that sink in a second. Now think about the absurdity of allowing current laws to remain unchanged.

wow! 280,000 guns that's an unreal number.

Im not a gun guy,I have a member of my family who has been affected by gun violence and even 20 years after she still has emotional issues from it.

But I don't wanna have them taken from people who are responsible gun owners,but my opinion if that animal can't get access to those guns,those kids and teachers are probably still alive.

[southparkcpa]

Originally Posted by IHATEDOLPHINS

wow! 280,000 guns that's an unreal number.

Im not a gun guy,I have a member of my family who has been affected by gun violence and even 20 years after she still has emotional issues from it.

But I don't wanna have them taken from people who are responsible gun owners,but my opinion if that animal can't get access to those guns,those kids and teachers are probably still alive.

Stricter laws, no access to weapons like AK's etc... all are common sense.

[Borgoguy]

Originally Posted by IHATEDOLPHINS

wow! 280,000 guns that's an unreal number.

Im not a gun guy,I have a member of my family who has been affected by gun violence and even 20 years after she still has emotional issues from it.

But I don't wanna have them taken from people who are responsible gun owners,but my opinion if that animal can't get access to those guns,those kids and teachers are probably still alive.

Couldn't find this morning's piece, but here a recent article which indicated the volume of calls from gun sellers requesting background checks. The number of calls actually overwhelmed the FBI's call centers. That number is just jaw-dropping.

Fears that lawmakers might soon enact tougher gun-control laws may have triggered a run on guns on Black Friday, according to reports. The FBI says it fielded a record number of background-check requests for gun buyers.

"With the recent election, some people are making buying decisions just in case something [a new law] happens,'' Don Gallardo, manager of Shooter's World in Phoenix, Ariz., told USA Today.

The FBI said it took 154,873 calls on Nov. 23, a marked increase over the agency's previous record number of calls: 129,166 last year. The bureau was so overwhelmed that a few outages occurred at some call centers, WMBF reports.

The FBI does not track actual firearms purchases, and the number of weapons sold could be even higher than the number of background-check calls because customers can purchase multiple guns, USA Today reports.

Shira Goodman, executive director of the Pennsylvania anti-gun violence group CeaseFirePa, agreed that buyers' concern over potential gun restrictions likely were in play this year, CBS Philadelphia reports. But, as Goodman noted to the station, “There was a lot of advertisement about what the re-election of President Obama might mean, although no action has been taken yet, or in his prior term, about limiting access to legal guns."

Meanwhile, gun-rights advocates celebrated the uptick in buyer interest. “Responsible firearms ownership is popular, mainstream and growing,” National Shooting Sports Foundation President and CEO Steve Sanetti said in a post on OpposingViews.com. “Americans in record numbers are choosing to own firearms for target shooting, hunting, collecting and personal and home protection.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2203957.html

[IHATEDOLPHINS]

Originally Posted by southparkcpa

Stricter laws, no access to weapons like AK's etc... all are common sense.

I would have no problem with that.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by southparkcpa

Stricter laws, no access to weapons like AK's etc... all are common sense.

You make the same mistake most do. "Stricter Laws" is not the answer, stricter ENFORCEMENT of the Law is.

How about this for Federal Gun Law:

1. Mandatory Federal Background Checks for all (no exceptions) Gun Purchases. Criminal, Mental Health, Violent, etc. and other causes would result in a "denied", but without those qualifiers, a "pass" finding.

If this puts Gun Shows out of Business, so be it. They'll adapt (for example, change the way the shows work so they are a "One Weekend Look, Next Weekend Pickup" style of show.

2. Draconian Federal Mandatory Minimums for crimes committed while in posession of a gun. I..e have a gun and rob someone, automatic +10-15 years on top of the existing sentence for armed robbery, no parole possible till the minimum is served.

If we can do that for "drug crimes", which is frankly a horrible miscarriage of justice, we can damn sure do it for guns.

3. Outright Ban on "Millitary Design" Weapons. If the gun was designed for purposes of killing more than one individual, it's banned. AK, AR-15, Uzi etc.

Rifiles with a capacity of under 10 rounds, handguns with a capacity under 10 rounds, and shotguns would all reman 100% legal. Millitary style weapons would not unless "deactivated" via barrel filling (i.e. for collectors).

4. And this is vital, full ban on a variety of ammunition designed for pentrating armor or causing greater harm to human beings.

5. And this is the real key IMO.......the Gun Rights side gives ALL of the above up.....to get a new Constitutional Amendment that protects, in no uncertain terms or questionable language, the right to own guns within the framework set up above. The right is absolute, and cannot be revoked without case that meets 1. above (criminal, insane, violent crime, etc).

If you are a law abaiding citizen, you can own as many Hunting Rifiles, self-defense hanguns an shotguns as you want, and as many deactivated guns of any kind, without ANY fear of loss of those rights without cause.

[stanner]

Originally Posted by southparkcpa

Interesting...I am wondering however how many of those handgun deaths in the US were inner city with illegal guns, Or... can we be provided how many of those deaths were

a) Between people who knew each other
b) Gang related
c) Random (Columbine etc..)

Can't remember where I saw it, but I want to say half of those were suicides.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by stanner

Can't remember where I saw it, but I want to say half of those were suicides.

Suicide makes us the maority of gun-related deaths, if I recall.

But it's a valid point.

1. Suicides.
2. One on One Known-Assailant/Family Killings.
3. Criminal-based, Gang killings with illegally obtained or stolen guns.

All the legislation in the world, including a full ban, will not put a dent in these. The suicidal will find other routes (no shortage there), the personal killings will still happen, but will be chokings or knifings or blunt force trauma, and gangs and criminal will fight and kill no matter what weapons they can obtain, inlcuidng (regardless of laws they are happy to break) guns for a long time to come.

Same could be said ofthe crazy mass-killer types. They're planning some mass-killing event.....do you think they'll waffle over obtaining a gun illegally, when they plan to kill dozens?

[freestater]

Originally Posted by Borgoguy

Couldn't find this morning's piece, but here a recent article which indicated the volume of calls from gun sellers requesting background checks. The number of calls actually overwhelmed the FBI's call centers. That number is just jaw-dropping.

Fears that lawmakers might soon enact tougher gun-control laws may have triggered a run on guns on Black Friday, according to reports. The FBI says it fielded a record number of background-check requests for gun buyers.

"With the recent election, some people are making buying decisions just in case something [a new law] happens,'' Don Gallardo, manager of Shooter's World in Phoenix, Ariz., told USA Today.

The FBI said it took 154,873 calls on Nov. 23, a marked increase over the agency's previous record number of calls: 129,166 last year. The bureau was so overwhelmed that a few outages occurred at some call centers, WMBF reports.

The FBI does not track actual firearms purchases, and the number of weapons sold could be even higher than the number of background-check calls because customers can purchase multiple guns, USA Today reports.

Shira Goodman, executive director of the Pennsylvania anti-gun violence group CeaseFirePa, agreed that buyers' concern over potential gun restrictions likely were in play this year, CBS Philadelphia reports. But, as Goodman noted to the station, “There was a lot of advertisement about what the re-election of President Obama might mean, although no action has been taken yet, or in his prior term, about limiting access to legal guns."

Meanwhile, gun-rights advocates celebrated the uptick in buyer interest. “Responsible firearms ownership is popular, mainstream and growing,” National Shooting Sports Foundation President and CEO Steve Sanetti said in a post on OpposingViews.com. “Americans in record numbers are choosing to own firearms for target shooting, hunting, collecting and personal and home protection.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2203957.html

umm... the FBI background check isn't done by phone anymore. It's all digital.

[gunnails]

We shouldn't overlook the lives saved/ acts of violence stopped by personal firearms in self defense, this number is also staggering.

Americans want guns, after the mall shooting here in Portland there has been a marked rise in gun sales, as there was in Co, and as I am sure will prove to be the case in Newton.

[Borgoguy]

Originally Posted by freestater

umm... the FBI background check isn't done by phone anymore. It's all digital.

Okay, background check requests. Satisfied? Or do you want to obfuscate the facts with "noise"?

[gunnails]

You can still do a background check by phone.

I know this cause the guy at the gun range up the street told me that on Black Friday he could not get through on line and after many attempts the FBI answered the phone and he was able to process 16 back ground checks at once.

Face to face sales (used gun sales) require no back ground check in almost all states. In fact I know of no way I could perform a back ground check on someone if I wanted to sale a gun.

[freestater]

Originally Posted by Borgoguy

Okay, background check requests. Satisfied? Or do you want to obfuscate the facts with "noise"?

The last two gun purchases I've made (over the past year or so) required NO CALL whatsoever. The whole system is done over the internet now. Unless the FBI is still using dial-up modems or the like, I don't see how their phone systems are crashing. I'm not trying to obfuscate. I'm probably one of a handful of people around here who purchaces weapons now and again, and I was relating my experience.

[freestater]

Originally Posted by gunnails

You can still do a background check by phone.

I know this cause the guy at the gun range up the street told me that on Black Friday he could not get through on line and after many attempts the FBI answered the phone and he was able to process 16 back ground checks at once.

Face to face sales (used gun sales) require no back ground check in almost all states. In fact I know of no way I could perform a back ground check on someone if I wanted to sale a gun.

didn't know that. I bought guns at two different stores here in this area, and I was told twice how it's all digital now.

[Monsterxman]

Originally Posted by gunnails

We shouldn't overlook the lives saved/ acts of violence stopped by personal firearms in self defense, this number is also staggering.

Americans want guns, after the mall shooting here in Portland there has been a marked rise in gun sales, as there was in Co, and as I am sure will prove to be the case in Newton.

Americans want cigarettes, alcohol and drugs too...
Common sense laws are in place to minimize their negative impacts.
Thats what needs to happen with guns.

Interestling enough, I was talking to my wife several weeks ago about getting a gun... This tragedy has had the exact opposite impact than what you state above in my case.

[FlagmanL11]

Originally Posted by Jetworks

Not sure how else to take Flagman's post, 32. Seemed pretty clear that he was endorsing the lobotomizing of individuals deemed to be "mentally ill and too effed up to be ALLOWED in the general public." Not sure how else to take it.

But hey, I get your point and I'll recuse myself from the MH aspect of the thread from hereon. Apologies to anyone that was offended by my ire.

Did not mean as a rule, nor to offend anyone. Sorry if i did... No idea about these wacked folks running around who are known trouble with some mental illness as the known excse for their off center behavior, which often results in some horrible stuff. Sucks, but nothing we can do...

[gunnails]

http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother
Liza Long
Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

"I can wear these pants," he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

"They are navy blue," I told him. "Your school's dress code says black or khaki pants only."

"They told me I could wear these," he insisted. "You're a stupid *****. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!"

"You can't wear whatever pants you want to," I said, my tone affable, reasonable. "And you definitely cannot call me a stupid *****. You're grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school."

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.
A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan-they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn't have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

We still don't know what's wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He's been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he's in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He's in a good mood most of the time. But when he's not, watch out. And it's impossible to predict what will set him off.

Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district's most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can't function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.

The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, "Look, Mom, I'm really sorry. Can I have video games back today?"

"No way," I told him. "You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly."

His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. "Then I'm going to kill myself," he said. "I'm going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself."

That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.

"Where are you taking me?" he said, suddenly worried. "Where are we going?"

"You know where we are going," I replied.

"No! You can't do that to me! You're sending me to hell! You're sending me straight to hell!"

I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. "Call the police," I said. "Hurry."

Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn't escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I'm still stronger than he is, but I won't be for much longer.

The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork-"Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…"

At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You'll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

For days, my son insisted that I was lying-that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, "I hate you. And I'm going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here."

By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I've heard those promises for years. I don't believe them anymore.

On the intake form, under the question, "What are your expectations for treatment?" I wrote, "I need help."

And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys-and their mothers-need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness.

According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. "If he's back in the system, they'll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the only way you're ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you've got charges."

I don't believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael's sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn't deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise-in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.

With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill-Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation's largest treatment centers in 2011.

No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, "Something must be done."

I agree that something must be done. It's time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That's the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

liza long is an author, musician, and erstwhile classicist. she is also a single mother of four bright, loved children, one of whom has special needs.

[Jetworks]

Originally Posted by TheBlairThomasFumble

What would be great is if the POTUS would lead and actually ask for new approaches to inability to insititutionalize the severely mentally ill, violence and popular culture, the obsession that these ill kids develop with guns and the accessibility to them, and the media's role in making these sick monsters INFAMOUS and thus giving them the impetus to want to become the next Columbine killers.

Regarding mental illness and aggression, this is an absolute MUST READ:
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.c...thinkable.html

Can you imagine if this was your kid?^

Outstanding entry by her. I pray she continues to find the strength for what must be done as her son grows older.

Originally Posted by FlagmanL11

Did not mean as a rule, nor to offend anyone. Sorry if i did... No idea about these wacked folks running around who are known trouble with some mental illness as the known excse for their off center behavior, which often results in some horrible stuff. Sucks, but nothing we can do...

I'll admit I'm a bit dooshy lately about the subject. Between my psychology finals and the media not running with what happened at the Congressional hearings a couple of weeks ago, seeing this being put forth as a possible factor annoys me to no end. Apologies.

[32green]

Originally Posted by freestater

didn't know that. I bought guns at two different stores here in this area, and I was told twice how it's all digital now.

Bought one about a month ago(LI) and they did it by phone, pretty quick too.

Guess the option to do both is now widely available.

-

[southparkcpa]

Originally Posted by 32green

Bought one about a month ago(LI) and they did it by phone, pretty quick too.

Guess the option to do both is now widely available.

-

here in NC, there is an application, a 2 week waiting period as they check your background and then you can buy up to 5 hand guns. Rifles, no background check.

IFnyou took the conceal training, you can buy as many as you wish.

All guns, when bought, are registered with ( I believe) the Feds. A federal form is filled out.

[gunnails]

Originally Posted by southparkcpa

here in NC, there is an application, a 2 week waiting period as they check your background and then you can buy up to 5 hand guns. Rifles, no background check.

IFnyou took the conceal training, you can buy as many as you wish.

All guns, when bought, are registered with ( I believe) the Feds. A federal form is filled out.

=================================================

By federal law there is no gun registry, there suppose to dispose of the records after a certain amount of time, whether they do or not?