Change of Philosophy

[Winstonbiggs]

You have an extremely bright extremely disturbed young man who was taught how to shoot and had easy access to his mother’s weapons. Hard to see how this is the fault of school testing.

I'm not impressed enough by the quality of our educators to think they could possibly do a decent job getting this kid the help he needs. They can't teach basic math and reading and we want to depend on them to socialize children who are mentally disturbed? Thanks but no thanks.

[FF2®]

Originally Posted by Jungle Shift Jet

LiberaL philosophy, ideology and messages in liberal controlled schools, media and entertainment, what could go wrong?

The brilliance continues.

[Jungle Shift Jet]

Originally Posted by FF2®

The brilliance continues.

Quit stalking me and get back in the closet, bitte.

Your brilliance is as stillborn as your morality.

[Bonhomme Richard]

Originally Posted by Jungle Shift Jet

Quit stalking me and get back in the closet, bitte.

Your brilliance is as stillborn as your morality.

Enough, goddammit. Shelve your partisan mouth diahhrea on this topic, please.

[PatriotReign]

edit

[doggin94it]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Are you seriousy using these the tragedy of these dead kids to push your "Don't Judge Us Teachers, No Testing" agenda you've been flogging here for months?

You are loathsome. You are less than loathsome. You're as bad as those crazy Religious nuts who are going to "protest" the funerals.

Using this horror to flog for the same old Union-backed political desires and self-serving employment wishes?

GFY Copernicus. You are evil.

This. Was about to post this nearly word for word, without the union mention, because I really don't give a **** what pet political project someone is using this for. Gun control at least makes sense as a discussion topic coming out of this. Less testing? GFY.

[DDNYjets]

Originally Posted by PatriotReign

Not 3 million, there are hundreds of millions in the US. If there were a gun ban in effect today it would do squat as a gun made in 1975 is just as lethal as one made last week if it's in the hands of a whack job.

This killer got the guns from his mother who was by all reports a duly licensed, sane and law abiding person. Enacting yet another law for the criminals and insane to ignore is an exercise in futility.

I agree that more power and resources should be devoted to identfying and confining whackjobs whether their parents consent to it or not. Even then that wouldn't have helped in this case as the POS was never violent before.

Its 3 hundred million. I left out the "hundred" on accident.

Might as well be a billion b.c there is no way we are ever going to eliminate guns and if someone wants one bad enough they will get one. No doubt about it.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs

You have an extremely bright extremely disturbed young man who was taught how to shoot and had easy access to his mother’s weapons. Hard to see how this is the fault of school testing.

I'm not impressed enough by the quality of our educators to think they could possibly do a decent job getting this kid the help he needs. They can't teach basic math and reading and we want to depend on them to socialize children who are mentally disturbed? Thanks but no thanks.

Not the fault of testing alone. But where do we start? Do we throw our hands up in the air and make schools military states with police roaming hallways, Doesnt seem to be the answer. How about we do the right thing abd begin to teach the next group of adults who are in school now to be better, more responsible adults.

Most Americans do not sit in schools and observe different school settings and only rely on what they see on the news. Many Americans believe what they see on ethe news. Most teachers news is about how awful they are and dont deserve the jobs they have.

Before politicians made it there mission to demonize teachers through the media our school system was producing educated people who were able to function in the working world.

About ten years ago politicians made it their mission to save money on the backs of kids and demonize teachers as all useless. To prove this they convinced the public that the best way to judge the progress of children (and teachers) was through testing. Once the public agreed, all hell broke loose. Its above and beyond what any person could believe is productive. What was lost? Most to all social growth programs including those that help kids deal with anger. They are all gone with extreme cutbacks in Phys Ed, Social Studies, Health, conflict resolution classes, recess, music and art.

All of these programs could help children, but are gone because the public believed the politicians who could give two cents about children.

BTW, next time the public is not impressed with educators, read about the teacher who dove in front of the gunman's shots that took her own life to protect her students. In my opinion most teachers in that position would do the same.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/12/...ents-at-vigil/

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by doggin94it

This. Was about to post this nearly word for word, without the union mention, because I really don't give a **** what pet political project someone is using this for. Gun control at least makes sense as a discussion topic coming out of this. Less testing? GFY.

There is a thread on gun control. This thread is about changing our academic philosophy to help the needs of an alarming violent youth

You are really taking this in an unnecessary direction.

My suggestion was to use school as the forefront to teach the next generation of adults to be better citizens.

Currently there are little to no program available for kids in schools because schools are 99% focused on raising test scores. There is no time for it.

There are deeply disturbed kids in public schools today who's issues are being ignored.

In other diagnosed cases, students are being mainstreamed when they cant handle it

In a matter of years these students will be of adult age.

It is disturbing that the trend of mass shooters in this country are young people just out of the school system.

A school system that seemed to turn its back on children's issues

[Winstonbiggs]

Originally Posted by copernicus

Not the fault of testing alone. But where do we start? Do we throw our hands up in the air and make schools military states with police roaming hallways, Doesnt seem to be the answer. How about we do the right thing abd begin to teach the next group of adults who are in school now to be better, more responsible adults.

Most Americans do not sit in schools and observe different school settings and only rely on what they see on the news. Many Americans believe what they see on ethe news. Most teachers news is about how awful they are and dont deserve the jobs they have.

Before politicians made it there mission to demonize teachers through the media our school system was producing educated people who were able to function in the working world.

About ten years ago politicians made it their mission to save money on the backs of kids and demonize teachers as all useless. To prove this they convinced the public that the best way to judge the progress of children (and teachers) was through testing. Once the public agreed, all hell broke loose. Its above and beyond what any person could believe is productive. What was lost? Most to all social growth programs including those that help kids deal with anger. They are all gone with extreme cutbacks in Phys Ed, Social Studies, Health, conflict resolution classes, recess, music and art.

All of these programs could help children, but are gone because the public believed the politicians who could give two cents about children.

BTW, next time the public is not impressed with educators, read about the teacher who dove in front of the gunman's shots that took her own life to protect her students. In my opinion most teachers in that position would do the same.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/12/...ents-at-vigil/

How about support laws that prevent public unions from negiotating contracts with public officials.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs

How about support laws that prevent public unions from negiotating contracts with public officials.

This is your only response? To go in a total different direction and off topic?

This is not the thread for this.

My only response is that if it werent for a documented history of crooked politicians in America you wouldnt need unions.

[doggin94it]

Originally Posted by copernicus

There is a thread on gun control. This thread is about changing our academic philosophy to help the needs of an alarming violent youth

Certainly. Because everyone knows that the amount of academic testing a student undergoes bears a direct relationship to propensity for violence. It makes as much sense as saying "of course Alex Rodriguez is doing poorly - have you seen the amount of testing students are subject to?!"

Let's make this simple. Mike Bloomberg's school policies had absolutely no impact on this. Attempting to connect the two is intellectually dishonest and, as an attempt to make hay from the deaths of innocent children, morally bankrupt.

[copernicus]

Originally Posted by doggin94it

Certainly. Because everyone knows that the amount of academic testing a student undergoes bears a direct relationship to propensity for violence. It makes as much sense as saying "of course Alex Rodriguez is doing poorly - have you seen the amount of testing students are subject to?!"

Let's make this simple. Mike Bloomberg's school policies had absolutely no impact on this. Attempting to connect the two is intellectually dishonest and, as an attempt to make hay from the deaths of innocent children, morally bankrupt.

You are not open for intelligent discussion on this topic. Its not just Bloomberg but it is across the nation. First Bush and Bloomberg and now Obama just piggy backed this money train. Its called a The Common Core Curriculum and its another fancy term on how politicians ruin students education in the name of huge profits.

There is an entire school system stressed out over a ridiculous amount of testing. There are politicians who are raping tax payers and giving less meaningful education all for the profit made on outside testing. Kids who have issues or potential issues get less services during the day to for fill their needs because everyone inside the school is in a panic because if scores are low the threat is that the school will be shut down. If the school is shut down it gives politicians to fill vacancies with unqualified teachers and administrators who are often just "political friends"

Kids like the shooter in Sandy Hook, whose parents are going through divorce, and have extreme anger issues could have possibly benefited by programs that were in place in schools up until ten years ago when the system went test crazy.

Today, those programs that could have possibly helped are no longer in place, replaced with tests where the only goal is to demoralize and entire system because it is set up to fail to keep the money train rolling.

[JetPotato]

Originally Posted by copernicus

Not the fault of testing alone. But where do we start? Do we throw our hands up in the air and make schools military states with police roaming hallways, Doesnt seem to be the answer. How about we do the right thing abd begin to teach the next group of adults who are in school now to be better, more responsible adults.

Most Americans do not sit in schools and observe different school settings and only rely on what they see on the news. Many Americans believe what they see on ethe news. Most teachers news is about how awful they are and dont deserve the jobs they have.

Before politicians made it there mission to demonize teachers through the media our school system was producing educated people who were able to function in the working world.

About ten years ago politicians made it their mission to save money on the backs of kids and demonize teachers as all useless. To prove this they convinced the public that the best way to judge the progress of children (and teachers) was through testing. Once the public agreed, all hell broke loose. Its above and beyond what any person could believe is productive. What was lost? Most to all social growth programs including those that help kids deal with anger. They are all gone with extreme cutbacks in Phys Ed, Social Studies, Health, conflict resolution classes, recess, music and art.

All of these programs could help children, but are gone because the public believed the politicians who could give two cents about children.

BTW, next time the public is not impressed with educators, read about the teacher who dove in front of the gunman's shots that took her own life to protect her students. In my opinion most teachers in that position would do the same.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/12/...ents-at-vigil/

Either this guy is completely unaware of how mentally ill this makes him sound, or he's a troll genius.

[Winstonbiggs]

Originally Posted by copernicus

This is your only response? To go in a total different direction and off topic?

This is not the thread for this.

My only response is that if it werent for a documented history of crooked politicians in America you wouldnt need unions.

You put out a UFT political manifesto about how cheap our politicians are when it comes to children and completely ignore that teachers and other public unions who are no longer doing any work are sucking the financial ability of these communities to provide for today's children.

You want services for children you need to look in the mirror.

I have lots of respect for the teachers in that school who put it on the line for those kids and the parents all over the country who have to deal with problem children the best that they can.

The problem as you point out is the UFT has been negiotating in bad faith for these children with crooked politicians. One of the reasons they are crooked is your leadership is bargaining in a position with a direct conflict of interest. You and your ilk have drained the treasury. The country is poorer. The only way we can provide more services is if you and your brothers and sisters are willing to do it for less pay and benifits. I didn't see that as part of your manifesto.

[Trades]

Originally Posted by copernicus

You are not open for intelligent discussion on this topic. Its not just Bloomberg but it is across the nation. First Bush and Bloomberg and now Obama just piggy backed this money train. Its called a The Common Core Curriculum and its another fancy term on how politicians ruin students education in the name of huge profits.

There is an entire school system stressed out over a ridiculous amount of testing. There are politicians who are raping tax payers and giving less meaningful education all for the profit made on outside testing. Kids who have issues or potential issues get less services during the day to for fill their needs because everyone inside the school is in a panic because if scores are low the threat is that the school will be shut down. If the school is shut down it gives politicians to fill vacancies with unqualified teachers and administrators who are often just "political friends"

Kids like the shooter in Sandy Hook, whose parents are going through divorce, and have extreme anger issues could have possibly benefited by programs that were in place in schools up until ten years ago when the system went test crazy.

Today, those programs that could have possibly helped are no longer in place, replaced with tests where the only goal is to demoralize and entire system because it is set up to fail to keep the money train rolling.

My kids go through more anti-bullying, anti-drinking and anti-drug training in their public school in 1 year than I ever had as a kid in 13 years (K-12). They both play rec sports and my older daughter is on 3 school teams. My younger daughter is in band and chorus and in the school play. They both take the same number of test as all the other public school kids and play video games. Neither one is showing a propensity toward violence.

There are a lot of things that have changed in children's lives that make up who they are but from my perspective I find it to be a severe lack of community, parenting, family and social awareness. I am not a big religion guy by any means (never go to church and consider myself an agnostic at best) but I have to throw in that the lack of that social compass and community might have something to do with it as well.

What I will agree with Cop on is that main streaming is not working for the most part. I will also add that thinking everyone should go to college and celebrating every difference as though it is good and acceptable is a HUGE issue in how we are raising our kids.

[southparkcpa]

Originally Posted by Trades

My kids go through more anti-bullying, anti-drinking and anti-drug training in their public school in 1 year than I ever had as a kid in 13 years (K-12). They both play rec sports and my older daughter is on 3 school teams. My younger daughter is in band and chorus and in the school play. They both take the same number of test as all the other public school kids and play video games. Neither one is showing a propensity toward violence.

There are a lot of things that have changed in children's lives that make up who they are but from my perspective I find it to be a severe lack of community, parenting, family and social awareness. I am not a big religion guy by any means (never go to church and consider myself an agnostic at best) but I have to throw in that the lack of that social compass and community might have something to do with it as well.

What I will agree with Cop on is that main streaming is not working for the most part. I will also add that thinking everyone should go to college and celebrating every difference as though it is good and acceptable is a HUGE issue in how we are raising our kids.

Interesting and articulate. I was chatting in the office today about bullying. In the 9th grade I had a LOT of acne and was picked on. Started lifting weights and one day I clocked a guy straight up. I just hit a tipping point and unloaded on him with NO warning.

Guns never crossed my mind. Didnt know anyone who had any and wouldn't know how to use them. That said..a different kid, pushed a little harder than I was, growing up in a hunting family who taught him how to shoot etc...

Point is...the addressing of bullying is a pretty good step by our schools.

Every school should put a "totalled car" in front of the entrance saying THIS is texting and driving. Kidding but you get the idea.

[Trades]

Originally Posted by southparkcpa

Interesting and articulate. I was chatting in the office today about bullying. In the 9th grade I had a LOT of acne and was picked on. Started lifting weights and one day I clocked a guy straight up. I just hit a tipping point and unloaded on him with NO warning.

Guns never crossed my mind. Didnt know anyone who had any and wouldn't know how to use them. That said..a different kid, pushed a little harder than I was, growing up in a hunting family who taught him how to shoot etc...

Point is...the addressing of bullying is a pretty good step by our schools.

Every school should put a "totalled car" in front of the entrance saying THIS is texting and driving. Kidding but you get the idea.

As another aside I was at Sylvan Learning Center with my 10 year old on Saturday morning. She was in taking a test while I was in the lobby reading. A young girl, maybe 14 or 15 with her little brother about 10 were in the lobby too. The 2 were talking. The boy was going on about some "fat girl" in school and the sister put the kid right in his place. Went on about that she probably eats to much because she is always picked on and that makes her feel better and that he shouldn't pick on her. There was another similar thing the girl corrected the boy about. I was very impressed that the girl was smart and articulate in the way she was teaching her brother.

From the way I understand it Adam Lanza on the other hand was a deeply troubled kid being raised by a mother who had her own issues. I read an article earlier based on statements of "an unnamed friend that the mother felt she was losing her son a month ago. She was right but didn't seem to realize how much. The father was giving a lot of money but I haven't read much on if he was involved with his kids other than financially.

There were so many factors that led to this tragedy that trying to blame 1 is ludicrous. It was many;Parenting, easy access to guns, possibly bullying in school, mental disease, inappropriate schooling, etc.

[BushyTheBeaver]

-Worth pointing out about Adam Lanza...he was 20 years old, no longer in school. His mother collected 290,000 dollars a year in alimony...so much money that she didn't even work.

So while it may be true of others, Adam Lanza was not some bullied kid or a student failed by the educational system with no access to mental health resources.

[southparkcpa]

Originally Posted by BushyTheBeaver

-Worth pointing out about Adam Lanza...he was 20 years old, no longer in school. His mother collected 290,000 dollars a year in alimony...so much money that she didn't even work.

So while it may be true of others, Adam Lanza was not some bullied kid or a student failed by the educational system with no access to mental health resources.

Understood. I brought it up as a simple example of the kinds of pressure some kids are under. Some have menatl illness, some are bullied etc...

The topic has become broad...i.e. how to identify troubled kids, what role is the school to play etc.. bullying is simply one factor of many.

Not sure there is a real and absolute solution.