Would the Jets (and Jets Fans) Have Fired Bill Cowher in 1999? Or in 2003?

[GreenReaper]

Originally Posted by Warfish

I don't want Cowher.

But I agree. "Till he got a QB" is the real key.

We don't have one.

I'd like to see Rex and a Rex D with an O led by a competant, veteran, professional O-Co, and at least a 15th ranked type QB.

My point would be, if Cowher had the worst QB in the NFL in turnovers and other stats in his first four seasons......would have have been given season #5? If he was a jets Coach who had that QB, and went 6-10, would he have survived not once but twice to keep on Coaching for us?

A different way to look at it. Many will call it "accepting mediocrity" and I can understand that, or they'll say Sanchez is ok it's not his fault, which I don;t understand at all, but maybe, just maybe, patience and perserverence is somethign worth trying.

After all, we've done the Coach-Go-Round most of our Franchsie history. Maybe buying in for the long haul is an idea we should try?

Worst case, if Rex does whats expected by some next year, and ****s the bed completely (some calling for a 2 win season if Rex stays), then it's easy and clear, dump him, start over.

And the above picture translates into these W-L records...

Chiefs = 2-14 = Crennel fired
Eagles = 4-12 = Reid fired = burnt out...no playoffs with Dream Team twice
Cards = 5-11 = Wisenhunt fired...no Kurt Warner...lol...no Kolb either
Bills = 6-10 = Gailey fired = Fitzy for QB
Jets = 6-10 = Woody says no...two AFCCG's saved Ryan's ass.

Consistently bad QB play usually ends up getting HC's fired. After two AFCCG seasons...the 2011-12 Sanchez turns into this...



If Cowher had Sanchez turning into a TO machine in his 3rd and 4th seasons, he probably would've deserved to be fired. Cause he wouldn't have achieved the two AFCCG's worth of credibility in those first two years, that would've enabled him to survive. He's not a genius on either side of the ball, that would've been able to over come a vastly inexperienced Sanchez at QB, operating a mediocre offense. He couldn't take Mangini's defense and turn it into the #1 defense in the league. That's what Rex did. And I give him credit for that. But I also give him credit for being part of the problem for the wheels completely falling off on Sanchez in year's three and four. IMO Rex is clueless when it comes to the offense and QB development.

So I have mixed feelings about Rex. Just as I didn't want Tanny to be the GM to draft and overseer the development of another QB prospect. I don't think that Rex should be there too. Yet...he's a DC genius. If given enough talent, Rex can beat a Belichick and Brady Pats team. 3-2 WL in 2009-10. Then 0-4 in 2011-12...when Sanchez made TO's faster then a speeding bullet. I don't think Cowher was much better then around 2-5 against BB and Brady, when HC of the Steelers.

IMO...Rex needed a GM with a strong football background to control him. And help guide him in all matters with the offense. Maybe the new Jets GM actually feels that Rex is worth working with. That he genuinely wants to move forward with Rex. But if Rex is not his choice...then 2013 is going to be just another year in Jets Paradise.

[fredoz]

Originally Posted by Warfish

I think that both Ownership and teh Fans both would havefired or wanted fired Cowher in his two 6-10 seasons before he won it all, yes.

You fail to mention that before those 6-10 seasons Cowher had established a track record, one that is much superior to Rex's.

Cowher went to the playoffs his first six seasons. Six! That buys a lot of patience from a fanbase.

Rex had two playoff seasons before he crapped out the last two. And remember that his second playoff season was shaky, Rex at one point thought they had missed the playoffs (before being told there was a small chance for them, one they did capitalize on).

Rex hasn't yet earned the right to have consecutive bad years, it's unclear whether he ever will.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Warfish

I think that both Ownership and teh Fans both would havefired or wanted fired Cowher in his two 6-10 seasons before he won it all, yes.

Maybe perserverence is a solution the Jets haven't yet tried.

After all, Bill Cowher was a two-time 6-10 Coach after 12 long seasons in Pittsburgh and he wasn't fired. That risk paid off.

Just tossing it out there.

The Jets carousel at starting quarterback is worse than the carousel of head coaches.

So you are saying that we should stick with Mark Sanchez because the Jets haven't yet tried "perseverance as a solution".

Makes a lot of sense. I'm proud of you.

SAR I

[FlagmanL11]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Outside of New York and New York Media Driven emo drama, I don't hear people (normal people, fans) laughing at Rex or the Jets either.

They say "why the hell you all sign Tebow?". They say "wow, Sanchez really isn't that good". And they've said from day one "Wow, Rex sure is a talker isn't he?"

But laugh at us? Can't say I hear that much here outside the NY/NJ area.

I think New Yorkers live in a bubble some times, and don't see their teams as the normal non-New Yorkers might see them. Most of the fans I talk to here in DC liek and respect Rex as a Coach, they think he talks too much (so do I) and they think Mark Sanchez is the worst QB in a long time.

Ass fumble.... Play of the year

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by JetsfanfromtheBURGH

Without a doubt the majority of jets fans would want him fired at that time. This same group secretly love the headlines that are created with constant turnover.

You know what, just because our head coach treats us like we're a bunch of stupid idiots doesn't mean it's true. I find that Jets fans are amongst the most passionate and intelligent fans in the NFL, no different than the Yankees fans and Rangers fans that get so much credit for knowing their sh-t.

The reason we have the perception of growing impatient with head coaches after 2-3 years is because we are absolutely expert in understanding sh-t coaches. It's something we're very good at. It doesn't mean we are "impatient". It means we are very sensitive to the warning signs, can smell them coming a mile away, and know a dog when we see a dog.

Rex Ryan has more exposed flaws than Eric Mangini, Herman Edwards, Al Groh, Ritch Kotite, Pete Carroll, and Bruce Coslet combined. We could go on for days documenting all the bad calls, bad decisions, and bad comments.

The answer is usually far more simple than it appears. Jets fans aren't impatient; we are merely acutely aware of what a bad coach looks like. Rex Ryan is that guy.

SAR I

[Vinny Testaverde's Niece]

After Rex and the Jets beat the Patriots, Cowher on CBS did a segment on 'how to beat the Patriots'. He used film from the Jets - Patriots game, describing all the defenses and tricks Rex used against Brady. It wasn't singled out as how the Jets did it or even attributed, he just called out and diagrammed the plays - and that was the only film he used. So bully for him, Cowher can look at Rex's defensive schemes and identify them as successful - but I doubt if he could have come up with them.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by fredoz

You fail to mention that before those 6-10 seasons Cowher had established a track record, one that is much superior to Rex's.

Cowher went to the playoffs his first six seasons. Six! That buys a lot of patience from a fanbase.

Rex had two playoff seasons before he crapped out the last two. And remember that his second playoff season was shaky, Rex at one point thought they had missed the playoffs (before being told there was a small chance for them, one they did capitalize on).

Rex hasn't yet earned the right to have consecutive bad years, it's unclear whether he ever will.

Well stated. And I'll take it one step further:

Mark Sanchez is a better quarterback than Rex Ryan is a head coach.

If you look at the body of work that Mark Sanchez is responsible for as a 23 year old rookie forward and then look at the body of work Rex Ryan is responsible for as a 48 year old head coach forward, it's no contest.

But the low-standards Ryan apologists don't see that. Nope. They see a blowhard who gave Jets fans their swagger back. Sadly, that was his only accomplishment. Look at us now.

SAR I

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Vinny Testaverde's Niece

After Rex and the Jets beat the Patriots, Cowher on CBS did a segment on 'how to beat the Patriots'. He used film from the Jets - Patriots game, describing all the defenses and tricks Rex used against Brady. It wasn't singled out as how the Jets did it or even attributed, he just called out and diagrammed the plays - and that was the only film he used. So bully for him, Cowher can look at Rex's defensive schemes and identify them as successful - but I doubt if he could have come up with them.

Whatever secret code Rex Ryan's defense possessed in the early days has been cracked.

Take a guess who cracked it. Take a guess who singlehandedly destroyed Rex Ryan and the Jets. Take a guess who has split Ryan's skull, poured it out, and danced all over its contents. Taught the NFL how to beat the Jets defense. Turns out, it's not that hard.

SAR I

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by SAR I

Well stated. And I'll take it one step further:

Mark Sanchez is a better quarterback than Rex Ryan is a head coach.

If you look at the body of work that Mark Sanchez is responsible for as a 23 year old rookie forward and then look at the body of work Rex Ryan is responsible for as a 48 year old head coach forward, it's no contest.

Ryan is a vastly better Coach than March Sanchez is a QB. By any metric of production or experience you might wish to use.

But the low-standards Ryan apologists don't see that.

As opposed to the apologists for the wost QB of the past four years, the turnover champion of the nFL in that time?

[Untouchable]

Originally Posted by SAR I

Mark Sanchez is a better quarterback than Rex Ryan is a head coach.

SAR I

LOL

Holy Sh*t

Stop right there.

At least Rex is acknowledged as a great defensive coach.

What the hell is Sanchez great at besides turning the ball over?

I'm now convinced that your Sanchez bullsh*t is nothing but schtick.

No one could be this clueless.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Untouchable

LOL

Holy Sh*t

Stop right there.

At least Rex is acknowledged as a great defensive coach.

What the hell is Sanchez great at besides turning the ball over?

I'm now convinced that your Sanchez bullsh*t is nothing but schtick.

No one could be this clueless.

Rex Ryan inherited a good team and destroyed it.

Mark Sanchez was given a set of good offensive playmakers and Rex Ryan took them away.

Rex Ryan had 25 years of NFL experience and remains a one-dimensional head coach.

Mark Sanchez had 0 years of NFL experience, looked very good for the first 2 years before Rex Ryan decided that the defense needed offseason support and the offense could be ignored.

The expectations of Rex Ryan's first 4 years with 25 years of NFL experience and shopping for all the groceries have been proven a failure.

The expectations of Mark Sanchez first 4 years with 0 years of NFL experience and no time on the bench to be nurtured while having his HC take away all his groceries have been proven a wash.

The odds that Rex Ryan can bounce back from this and be a successful NFL head coach is 0%.

The odds that Mark Sanchez can bounce back from this and be a successful NFL quarterback is 30%.

Rex Ryan is beyond repair. Mark Sanchez might just need some legitimate playmakers again.

SAR I

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Warfish

As opposed to the apologists for the wost QB of the past four years, the turnover champion of the nFL in that time?

I am not a Mark Sanchez fan.

I simply believe that there is a valid explanation for his production falloff and the proper coaching, playmakers, and support might be that explanation. A 10 year old can see this.

Rex Ryan has no upside. He is what he is. He's 50 years old, has been in the NFL for 25 years, has admitted on numerous occasions that he is who he is and is going to be what he is. That person is a losing head coach with no penchant for talent evaluation and no talent for player development. Additionally, it's looking more and more like the Ryan boys have had papa Buddy's code cracked and their defense isn't fooling anyone anymore.

There are obvious external reasons that can explain Mark Sanchez' falloff. There are no such explanations for Rex Ryan's falloff. He bought all the groceries. Mark Sanchez is just a box of cereal.

SAR I

[Untouchable]

Originally Posted by SAR I

Rex Ryan inherited a good team and destroyed it.

Mark Sanchez was given a set of good offensive playmakers and Rex Ryan took them away.

Rex Ryan had 25 years of NFL experience and remains a one-dimensional head coach.

Mark Sanchez had 0 years of NFL experience, looked very good for the first 2 years before Rex Ryan decided that the defense needed offseason support and the offense could be ignored.

The expectations of Rex Ryan's first 4 years with 25 years of NFL experience and shopping for all the groceries have been proven a failure.

The expectations of Mark Sanchez first 4 years with 0 years of NFL experience and no time on the bench to be nurtured while having his HC take away all his groceries have been proven a wash.

The odds that Rex Ryan can bounce back from this and be a successful NFL head coach is 0%.

The odds that Mark Sanchez can bounce back from this and be a successful NFL quarterback is 30%.

Rex Ryan is beyond repair. Mark Sanchez might just need some legitimate playmakers again.

SAR I

Mark Sanchez is dogsh*t as an NFL QB.

Your bullsh*t excuses for his first 2 years as an NFL QB, where he still failed to break the 60% completion rate and 1:1 TD to INT ratio, despite having a Top 5 defense, Top 5 running game and the best OL in the league do nothing to disprove that.

Rex's defense was the main reason we made it as far as we did.

Hell, Rex's defense was the only reason we were 6-10 this year instead of 2-14.

Accept it and move on.

Rex definitely deserves his share of the blame, but not ahead of Tanny and Sanchez.

[Traitor Jay & the Woodies]

Originally Posted by Warfish

I think that both Ownership and teh Fans both would havefired or wanted fired Cowher in his two 6-10 seasons before he won it all, yes.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/CowhBi0.htm

Maybe we should soldier through another coupe of years with Ryan, and see.

We've gone the route of change every four->five years. Is there anything to be said for soldiering through a bad downturn, staying with the same guy, as Pittsburgh did, and see if he rises up to the challenge?

I don't disagree Rex has flaws, especially his loyalty to his guys....like Sanchez.

But is it truly impossible that Rex could win, if given a mid-level QB to work with (not, as we have now, the worst QB of the past 4 years), and a quality O-Co?

If ownership hires a competant General Manager, who along with Rex brings in a truly top-tier O-Co (Norv Turner for example) and a legitimate Mid-Tier QB Candidate, is it possible Rex could be a successful Coach again in New York?

Maybe perserverence is a solution the Jets haven't yet tried.

After all, Bill Cowher was a two-time 6-10 Coach after 12 long seasons in Pittsburgh and he wasn't fired. That risk paid off.

Just tossing it out there.

First of all, the bodies of work you are comparing are not really that similar. Cowher led teams that actually dominated, went to a Super Bowl and hosted some championship games. Rex never even won a division.

Second, off the field and in the locker room, Bill Cohwer teams were professional outfits. He carried himself as a leader of men. Rex is entropy. He inspires little confidence. Cohwer was always a grown up.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by SAR I

I am not a Mark Sanchez fan.

I simply believe that there is a valid explanation for his production falloff and the proper coaching, playmakers, and support might be that explanation. A 10 year old can see this.

SAR I

What a 10 year old can see is that Mark Sanchez is the primary cause of our poor records in 2011 and 2012. That he is horribly inaccurate. Unproductive. That he is prone to costly, untimely and common turnovers. That he is not posessed of awareness in the pocket, does not feel or see pressure coming, does not get rid of the ball fast enough and does not make good decisions. He is also far too dispassionate, almost to the point of being either disinterested, lacking seriousness or (commonly) simply mopey. Like Eyore. He is not and never has been a leader of men at the NFL level.

And he is, without question, the worst QB of the past 4 years.

None of which had anything to do with our Defense. A Defense that itself seffered from extended playing time, poor field positions to defend, and points scored off of turnovers and special teams. A defense that had to be perfect to overcome how horrible and unproductive Sanchez was and is.

And this year, that Defense wasn't close to perfect, and the record shows it.

Rex Ryan vs. Mark Sanchez? Established Defensive success vs. a total first round bust?

Agree to disagree SAR. If it's Rex or Sanchez, Rex is the clear and uncontested choice all the way.

Hell, you don't even have to be 10 to see that.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Untouchable

Mark Sanchez is dogsh*t as an NFL QB.

Your bullsh*t excuses for his first 2 years as an NFL QB, where he still failed to break the 60% completion rate and 1:1 TD to INT ratio, despite having a Top 5 defense, Top 5 running game and the best OL in the league do nothing to disprove that.

Rex's defense was the main reason we made it as far as we did.

Hell, Rex's defense was the only reason we were 6-10 this year instead of 2-14.

Accept it and move on.

Rex definitely deserves his share of the blame, but not ahead of Tanny and Sanchez.

If they took away Rex Ryan's contact lenses, headset, and coaching staff then he would be equivalently crippled and stripped of the tools needed to perform as was the case with Mark Sanchez.

Rex Ryan didn't lose any of the opportunity that he had in '09 and '10 because he was the guy shopping for all the groceries. What happened to him in '11 and '12 is his own doing.

Mark Sanchez lost every opportunity that he had in '09 and '10 because the guy shopping for all the groceries took them away and replaced them with crap. What happened to him in '11 and '12 is not a certainty that it was his own doing, very well might have been what others did to him.

That's the difference.

Put another way: Rex Ryan is going to be the same guy next year, no way he can improve or change. Mark Sanchez might not be the same guy next year, might be that a new OC, stronger OL, legitimate RB, and a set of NFL-caliber WR's is all that's needed to turn him around.

SAR I

[detjetsfan]

Not denying the fact that Cowher is a great coach but the Steelers have had the best FO in the NFL for like 20 years now. Their scouting dept has been terrific since the early 90's.

[Beerfish]

Okay so we just have to wait another 8-10 years before we win a super bowl and all will be well? One could argue that one superbowl for cowher all thsoe years was not that special.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Warfish

What a 10 year old can see is that Mark Sanchez is the primary cause of our poor records in 2011 and 2012. That he is horribly inaccurate. Unproductive. That he is prone to costly, untimely and common turnovers. That he is not posessed of awareness in the pocket, does not feel or see pressure coming, does not get rid of the ball fast enough and does not make good decisions. He is also far too dispassionate, almost to the point of being either disinterested, lacking seriousness or (commonly) simply mopey. Like Eyore. He is not and never has been a leader of men at the NFL level.

And he is, without question, the worst QB of the past 4 years.

None of which had anything to do with our Defense. A Defense that itself seffered from extended playing time, poor field positions to defend, and points scored off of turnovers and special teams. A defense that had to be perfect to overcome how horrible and unproductive Sanchez was and is.

And this year, that Defense wasn't close to perfect, and the record shows it.

Rex Ryan vs. Mark Sanchez? Established Defensive success vs. a total first round bust?

Agree to disagree SAR. If it's Rex or Sanchez, Rex is the clear and uncontested choice all the way.

Hell, you don't even have to be 10 to see that.

If all that Rex Ryan needed to be was an "established defensive success" to be a great head coach I'd agree with you. What he lacks on the other side of the ball is astounding.

Everyone can see that Mark Sanchez is a ball of suck. That isn't the question. The question is WHY is he a ball of suck when he looked so promising in his first two seasons.

You seem to feel Mark sucks because he has no skills.

I seem to feel that there's a 70% chance you're right and a 30% chance that it was the players that were taken away from him and the crap that replaced them not to mention a new OC who was worse and the Tebow migraine.

The Jets couldn't have ruined a quarterback more effectively if they were trying. If they laid out a plan to destroy Mark Sanchez what actually occurred would surpass their wildest dreams.

Conversely, the Jets couldn't have set up a head coach to succeed more successfully than they did with Rex Ryan. Let him pick all the groceries under a subservient GM, let him run a strategy from 1959 that can't work in today's NFL, let him overstock the defense at the expense of the offense, let him ignore the offense completely, let him run his mouth at will, let him never improve, never held him accountable for anything, indulged him every which way countless times.

Rex Ryan is the problem here. He's running the whole show and it sucks.

SAR I

[detjetsfan]

Originally Posted by Beerfish

Okay so we just have to wait another 8-10 years before we win a super bowl and all will be well? One could argue that one superbowl for cowher all thsoe years was not that special.

Cowher's teams were competitive and well above .500 most years he was a HC. He never ever had a QB until Roethlisberger fell into their laps in the 2004 draft.

Cowher and Rex are quite similar actually the poster who said earlier Cowher is Rex without the talk was spot on. Even Sanchez is similar to some of the game manager qbs Cowher had like Tommy Maddox and Mike Tomczak.