Sanchez: Where It All Went Wrong

[ASG0531]

Originally Posted by SAR I

Not a single Jets fan on the planet expected Mark Sanchez to fall to pieces ad we headed into opening day 2011 as Super Bowl favorites.

The kid didn't change. His playmakers did.

SAR I

Favorite means most likely to win. This claim is factually incorrect. Even the Patriots had better Super Bowl odds despite that loss. I'm not even sure the Jets were top five.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by SAR I

If Mark Sanchez doesn't complete key passes on a last-minute drive at Indianapolis, the New York Jets don't send Peyton Manning's last game as a Colt into the record books and they don't go into Foxboro and beat the Patriots either.

Mark Sanchez was not drafted to be the next Dan Marino. He was drafted out of desperation because we didn't have a QB on the roster after Favre left and it was a brutal free agent class. We picked the best QB available, jumped up to take him, he was 23, a college junior. His job was to not screw it up for the defense and the running game. The Jets said so themselves. The Jets drafted to that strategy as well.

Hey, what do you know, I actually agree with you completely here. More below

What he did in his first two seasons was remarkable. We all thought so. In fact, go find your posts from August 2011 showing how you felt about Mark Sanchez going into that season. Things looked good until Burress showed his age, Tomlinson and Keller got hurt, and the defense let the lame Eagles and Giants run and throw all over us.

And the 2012 season was just an offensive disaster. Perfectly healthy they couldn't score a preseason TD, losing Holmes and Keller and Hill made a bad situation worse. And you wonder why Mark Sanchez looked like crap? Please.

If the defense and the running game did their jobs in 2012 then Mark Sanchez wouldn't have been asked to throw the ball 30-40 times a game to bail them out. Fewer turnovers, less blame. He's a scapegoat for the utter fail of a defense and running attack and special teams that Rex Ryan put on the field. It's shameful.

SAR I

The thing is SAR, you are conflating Mark "not screwing things up" with Mark being a "good QB". That just wasn't the case. So he made some good throws occasionally, so what ? So did Trent Dilfer. That doesn't mean that Dilfer was a good QB. Brady Quinn has also made some good throws, as has Matt Cassel.

The FACT of the matter is that Mark Sanchez hasn't had a single season where he's been a "good" QB. It just hasn't happened. He was largely carried by the team his first 2 years, and these last 2, when he has been asked to step the **** up and do some of the heavy lifting himself, he shat the bed both times.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by McGinley

That's a bit hypocritical seeing as you Tebow fans do that all the time.

Ummm, no. Difference is that in the games that Denver won, they did so on Tebow's back as opposed to him mainly handing the ball off to a RB.

Which games do you want to look at ? Tebow driving 95 yards down the field and beating the Jets ? Tebow throwing for over 200 in the 4th Q and OT to beat the Bears ? Tebow going off on Pitt ?

He looked like **** quite a lot in 2011, but there's no doubt that he was the catalyst on those game winning drives.

[JaxSuzy]

Originally Posted by McGinley

Madre de Dios. SAR vs. Demos.

hahahahahahaha that's freaking funny !

[McGinley]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

Ummm, no. Difference is that in the games that Denver won, they did so on Tebow's back as opposed to him mainly handing the ball off to a RB.

Which games do you want to look at ? Tebow driving 95 yards down the field and beating the Jets ? Tebow throwing for over 200 in the 4th Q and OT to beat the Bears ? Tebow going off on Pitt ?

He looked like **** quite a lot in 2011, but there's no doubt that he was the catalyst on those game winning drives.

Tebow driving 95 yards against the Jets? Wow, after a pick 6 from Sanchez, and most of the game being utterly fail, Tebow finally did something? WOW, DA BESS!

Tebow threw for 200 yards over the course of 4+ Quarters to win....13-10. WOW, DA BESS!

Tebow "going off" against a banged up Steelers D missing Ryan Clark and playing on the Road and losing in OT after a dumb Defensive playcall and a great run from D.Thomas? WOW, DA BESS!


Your guy sucks, mate. I know it hurts to accept, but you just have to. You giving SAR grief about his support of Mark is utterly hilarious and completely hypocritical. I mean, you act as though Mark has never made plays before while giving Tebow ALL the credit for anything that the Broncos did good. I mean, you go as far as to conveniently leave Tebow's name off your list off bad QBs who did good things on occasion while adding Mark to it.

In the end, you're giving SAR grief for supporting a bad QB while you're doing the same damn thing.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by McGinley

Tebow driving 95 yards against the Jets? Wow, after a pick 6 from Sanchez, and most of the game being utterly fail, Tebow finally did something? WOW, DA BESS!

Yep, Tebow did what Mark couldn't do this year on a number of occasions, which was to drive down the field and win the game. Pats and Texans games come immediately to mind.

Tebow threw for 200 yards over the course of 4+ Quarters to win....13-10. WOW, DA BESS!

Actually, think that was over the course of 5-10 minutes of the 4th Q and OT.

Tebow "going off" against a banged up Steelers D missing Ryan Clark and playing on the Road and losing in OT after a dumb Defensive playcall and a great run from D.Thomas? WOW, DA BESS!

Ah yes, the Steelers were so banged up that the expert bookmakers in Vegas still had them as a prohibitive favorite. Almost NO ONE outside of Denver thought they had a shot of winning that game. Pitt was favored by 7.5 points.

Your guy sucks, mate. I know it hurts to accept, but you just have to. You giving SAR grief about his support of Mark is utterly hilarious and completely hypocritical. I mean, you act as though Mark has never made plays before while giving Tebow ALL the credit for anything that the Broncos did good. I mean, you go as far as to conveniently leave Tebow's name off your list off bad QBs who did good things on occasion while adding Mark to it.

In the end, you're giving SAR grief for supporting a bad QB while you're doing the same damn thing.

Here's the difference Sunshine. As poorly as Mark played his first year, it was right to give him another year. Hell, even after his second, it was right to give him a third. It doesn't mean that he played great and was a good QB. It's just that's what you have to do when developing a QB.

Tebow has had a grand total of 16 starts. My entire argument is that he's shown more than enough in those 16 starts to be deserving of more time to gain experience as a starter, to grow and try to improve.

Here's something kind of telling. Last year, while Tebow supposedly didn't look like an NFL QB, he had a passer rating of 72.9.

Mark Sanchez's passer rating in each of his first 4 years ? 63.0, 75.3, 78.2 and 66.9. His average lifetime rating is 71.7. Even if you factor out this year, his avg is 72.16.

Let that digest for just a bit. Over his first 3 years in the NFL, Mark's career QB rating was 72.6, and he's named to start his 4th year (and given an extension), while Tebow came off the bench, took over as a starter and managed a higher rating of 72.9 and apparently, he isn't an NFL QB and shouldn't start anywhere.

What a frakking joke.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by McGinley

Madre de Dios. SAR vs. Demos.

[McGinley "Rustling" Image #65 Here]

The rusting thing was funny last year.

For a college kid, you need your meme priorities brushed up. Don't tell me you're actually doing schoolwork for a change.

SAR I

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by ASG0531

Favorite means most likely to win. This claim is factually incorrect. Even the Patriots had better Super Bowl odds despite that loss. I'm not even sure the Jets were top five.

They were in the conversation.

If you're going to search for spelling errors next, please find another thread.

SAR I

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

The FACT of the matter is that Mark Sanchez hasn't had a single season where he's been a "good" QB. It just hasn't happened. He was largely carried by the team his first 2 years, and these last 2, when he has been asked to step the **** up and do some of the heavy lifting himself, he shat the bed both times.

As a rookie in 2009, yes, the defense and ground attack carried Mark Sanchez. You could say the same for any other 23 year old college junior who didn't get a chance to learn on the job.

As a sophomore in 2010, BZZZZZT, wrong answer. Mark Sanchez turned a 7-9 season into a memorable 11-5 season with 4 dramatic comeback wins in a single month, two in OT, three on the road, one an imposibility against the Texans. Oh, and the 5th game winning drive happened in the playoffs, avenging the Colts loss the year prior, enroute to another impossible win at New England. Sure looked like we found our franchise QB.

In 2011 he was tracking to a 10-6 season when Tomlinson and Keller went down and Burress got old and Greene stopped running and the defense got its head handed to it against New England in November. Bill Belichick smacked Rex Ryan in the face with a force from which we never recovered.

Heading into that Patriots game we were on an 18-9 run with 5 huge victories against elite teams.

Since that game, the New York Jets are 9-15 with a 1-11 record against teams that end the year with a winning record.

What changed at that halfway point of 2011 was that the defense lost its swagger, the head coach lost his team, and the quarterback lost all his weapons. And none of those three things, not a single one, was corrected or improved for 2012 which leaves us as the smouldering mess we are.

Mark Sanchez was good once. Very good. The Jets ignored him, abandoned him, and ruined him. And here we are, yet again, discussing Mark Sanchez over and over when we should be discussing the pathetic head coach, the pathetic defense, the pathetic running game, and the pathetic special teams as they were all bigger villains than our quarterback.

SAR I

[McGinley]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

Yep, Tebow did what Mark couldn't do this year on a number of occasions, which was to drive down the field and win the game. Pats and Texans games come immediately to mind.

Mark's had his moments, just like Tim. In any case, it doesn't matter since I'm not even defending Mark. lol.


Actually, think that was over the course of 5-10 minutes of the 4th Q and OT.

Back it up. Can't just say "Well, I think this blah blah blah" and pass it off as fact.

Ah yes, the Steelers were so banged up that the expert bookmakers in Vegas still had them as a prohibitive favorite. Almost NO ONE outside of Denver thought they had a shot of winning that game. Pitt was favored by 7.5 points.

Your circumventing of my point aside, you haven't proven me wrong. All your talk about bookmakers and odds still doesn't change the facts.

Here's the difference Sunshine. As poorly as Mark played his first year, it was right to give him another year. Hell, even after his second, it was right to give him a third. It doesn't mean that he played great and was a good QB. It's just that's what you have to do when developing a QB.

Tebow has had a grand total of 16 starts. My entire argument is that he's shown more than enough in those 16 starts to be deserving of more time to gain experience as a starter, to grow and try to improve.

Here's something kind of telling. Last year, while Tebow supposedly didn't look like an NFL QB, he had a passer rating of 72.9.

Mark Sanchez's passer rating in each of his first 4 years ? 63.0, 75.3, 78.2 and 66.9. His average lifetime rating is 71.7. Even if you factor out this year, his avg is 72.16.

Let that digest for just a bit. Over his first 3 years in the NFL, Mark's career QB rating was 72.6, and he's named to start his 4th year (and given an extension), while Tebow came off the bench, took over as a starter and managed a higher rating of 72.9 and apparently, he isn't an NFL QB and shouldn't start anywhere.

What a frakking joke.

Demos getting frustrated and calling someone sunshine in an attempt to belittle them and talk down to them? Wow, didn't see that one coming.

At the end of the day, your point of Tebow being better than Mark is moot to me because I'm not defending Mark. However, you're STILL the one who's giving SAR grief for supporting a bad QB while you YOURSELF blindly support a bad QB. Whether Tim is better than Mark is irrelevant because he's STILL A BAD QB!

That is all.

[McGinley]

Originally Posted by SAR I

BLARG, COLLEGE KID, RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE, CONDESCENDING GARBAGE, BLARG, HERP DERP DURRRRRRRR

SAR I

Vintage SAR in midseason form. I love it.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by SAR I

As a rookie in 2009, yes, the defense and ground attack carried Mark Sanchez. You could say the same for any other 23 year old college junior who didn't get a chance to learn on the job.

As a sophomore in 2010, BZZZZZT, wrong answer. Mark Sanchez turned a 7-9 season into a memorable 11-5 season with 4 dramatic comeback wins in a single month, two in OT, three on the road, one an imposibility against the Texans. Oh, and the 5th game winning drive happened in the playoffs, avenging the Colts loss the year prior, enroute to another impossible win at New England. Sure looked like we found our franchise QB.

In 2011 he was tracking to a 10-6 season when Tomlinson and Keller went down and Burress got old and Greene stopped running and the defense got its head handed to it against New England in November. Bill Belichick smacked Rex Ryan in the face with a force from which we never recovered.

Heading into that Patriots game we were on an 18-9 run with 5 huge victories against elite teams.

Since that game, the New York Jets are 9-15 with a 1-11 record against teams that end the year with a winning record.

What changed at that halfway point of 2011 was that the defense lost its swagger, the head coach lost his team, and the quarterback lost all his weapons. And none of those three things, not a single one, was corrected or improved for 2012 which leaves us as the smouldering mess we are.

Mark Sanchez was good once. Very good. The Jets ignored him, abandoned him, and ruined him. And here we are, yet again, discussing Mark Sanchez over and over when we should be discussing the pathetic head coach, the pathetic defense, the pathetic running game, and the pathetic special teams as they were all bigger villains than our quarterback.

SAR I

Oh, so now it's the halfway point of 2011. Let's see, Mark had 30+ starts under his belt at this point.

Note to SAR: Little Marky should have grown up by this point and should have been able to shoulder some of the load. He was no longer a wide eyed neophyte.

This is what people have been trying to explain to you for a year and a half. Mark's first year, he was protected and carried. For much of his 2nd year, he again was carried by a top running game and a top defense.

In his 3rd year as a freaking starter, he was asked to STEP THE HELL UP AND DO MORE. You know, it's like anyone else who has ever held a job. The underlying common sense belief was that by year 3, Mark ought to have been a GOOD QB. You know, he should have IMPROVED ????

He didn't. Just for kicks, go ahead and tell us one area oh his game where Mark has improved significantly. Can you do that ?

[JaxSuzy]

Originally Posted by McGinley

At the end of the day, your point of Tebow being better than Mark is moot to me because I'm not defending Mark. However, you're STILL the one who's giving SAR grief for supporting a bad QB while you YOURSELF blindly support a bad QB. Whether Tim is better than Mark is irrelevant because he's STILL A BAD QB!

See, McG, the whole problem with your post is that Tebow has not proven to be a bad QB. Demos's point is that Tebow's first 16 starts in the NFL were at least as good as Mark's first 16 starts in the NFL. Regardless, nobody expects rookie QB's to play like Tom Brady their first few years in the NFL. Unless that rookie QB's name is Tebow.

The hypocritical crap is that any other rookie QB gets 4 years as a starter to grow and learn from his mistakes - except Tebow. His record last year was good enough for him to get some quality time as a QB for the Jets, even if just for the last 2 games. We're unable to compare a Tebow-led Jets team with a Sanchez-led Jets team because Rex Ryan had no cojones. My assessment of Sanchez's performance this year is that it sucked, and he had plenty of time to do it. Tebow had a play here and a play there - hardly enough of a sample for you to determine that he sucked.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

Just for kicks, go ahead and tell us one area oh his game where Mark has improved significantly. Can you do that ?

Playmakers Mark had earlier in his career:

Edwards,
Holmes,
Cotchery,
Burress,
Keller,
Tomlinson,
Richardson,
Jones,
Greene (young),
Washington.

Replacement players this/last year:

Schillens,
Hill,
Kerley,
McKnight,
Connor,
Gates,
Hilliard,
Reuland,
Gilyard,
Greene (old).

Find me 1 player that's a better one-for-one swap of the guy he replaced. You can't. We have the worst set of receiving targets in the NFL. It's hard to be a good QB when you have nothing to throw to. Note that I did not list the OL fails. Note that I did not list the Coordinator fail. Note that I did not list the Tebow distraction.

So, no, I can't tell you where he's improved because it's impossible. The 787 sitting in the hangar at JFK might be the best plane in the fleet but if two of its engines are missing and it has no fuel it's useless and impossible to judge until repaired.

This is getting monotonous. Any level-headed NFL fan can see that the Jets have a pathetic offense that even Tom Brady would fail with. If you can't see that, sorry, not my problem.

SAR I

[McGinley]

Originally Posted by JaxSuzy

See, McG, the whole problem with your post is that Tebow has not proven to be a bad QB. Demos's point is that Tebow's first 16 starts in the NFL were at least as good as Mark's first 16 starts in the NFL. Regardless, nobody expects rookie QB's to play like Tom Brady their first few years in the NFL. Unless that rookie QB's name is Tebow.

The hypocritical crap is that any other rookie QB gets 4 years as a starter to grow and learn from his mistakes - except Tebow. His record last year was good enough for him to get some quality time as a QB for the Jets, even if just for the last 2 games. We're unable to compare a Tebow-led Jets team with a Sanchez-led Jets team because Rex Ryan had no cojones. My assessment of Sanchez's performance this year is that it sucked, and he had plenty of time to do it. Tebow had a play here and a play there - hardly enough of a sample for you to determine that he sucked.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by McGinley

That is all.

It sucks when you quote inline like that.

Originally Posted by McGinley

Mark's had his moments, just like Tim. In any case, it doesn't matter since I'm not even defending Mark. lol.

Fair enough.

Back it up. Can't just say "Well, I think this blah blah blah" and pass it off as fact.

I was off just a bit. Here's the stat line:

In the fourth quarter and overtime, Tebow completed 18-of-24 passes for 191 yards and a touchdown

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci...#ixzz2GzPnKH3O

Your circumventing of my point aside, you haven't proven me wrong. All your talk about bookmakers and odds still doesn't change the facts.

What you tried to imply is that the Steelers were banged up and that beating a banged up team didn't show anything. As I pointed out, the Vegas bookmakers still had the Steelers as a 7.5 pt favorite. In other words, they and everyone else still thought the Steelers would win, and Tebow and the Broncos beat them.


The Steelers had the NFL's #1 rated pass defense AND one of the best, most well regarded DC's in the league, and Tebow went for 316 on them.

Demos getting frustrated and calling someone sunshine in an attempt to belittle them and talk down to them? Wow, didn't see that one coming.

Yep, you do know how I roll as that's my normal MO when dealing with some incredibly silly points that someone else tries to make.

At the end of the day, your point of Tebow being better than Mark is moot to me because I'm not defending Mark. However, you're STILL the one who's giving SAR grief for supporting a bad QB while you YOURSELF blindly support a bad QB. Whether Tim is better than Mark is irrelevant because he's STILL A BAD QB!

And yet again Sunshine, you've lost the plot. Missed the forest because of the trees. Yada, yada, yada.

I'm not saying that Tebow was a great QB in 2011. Also, I'm not giving SAR **** for supporting Mark his first year, or his second, or even his third.

To the contrary, I'm giving SAR **** for his repeated attempts to try and say that Mark was a good QB in any of his 4 years in the NFL. He wasn't.

Now, I'll be even more condescending and I'll try to spoon feed it to you. With most young rookie QBs, you don't expect them to be "good" QBs their first year. If they are, it's a surprising bonus. Instead, you expect them to go through the normal rookie trials and tribulations. You expect them to throw lots of INTs and make lots of mistakes, all depending on how much you throw at them.

If you want a good example, go look at Eli Manning's first 16 starts. He wasn't anything close to being a "good" QB. BUT, he was given time and they had patience with him, just as the Jets did with Sanchez.

The numbers that Tebow put up in 2011 were fine given the offense that he was running and factoring in his production on the ground. He had many of the same issues that most other young QBs have.

The belief is that in their 2nd years, they will have learned something and the game would have started to slow down for them.

By their 3rd year as a starter, you expect marked improvement. You expect that they can shoulder more of the burden. You expect that they shouldn't rely on others to carry the team.

So, I stand accused of supporting a young QB who did fine through his first 16 starts ? Who took over his 1-4 team, went 7-4 with them, took them to the playoffs and even won a playoff game ?

You're damned skippy I support him and will continue to do so until he's had another year as a starter to actually try and show what he can do.

You and others here might think it silly, but I'll be damned if I'm going to evaluate a kid on only 16 starts and say that he isn't an NFL QB, especially when he has a farking winning record as a starter, wins that he was largely responsible for.

[detjetsfan]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

Ummm, no. Difference is that in the games that Denver won, they did so on Tebow's back as opposed to him mainly handing the ball off to a RB.

2011 Broncos w/Tebow - 8-8

2012 Broncos w/Manning - 13-3


Hmmm...

[McGinley]

You can evaluate him all you want in Jacksonville (assuming there's not a true QB competition in camp), if they even want him. Could he turn into a good QB? Sure, just about anyone could. Will he? Doubt it.

Regardless of whether he's better than Mark based off their first 16 starts, him being a trash QB is still the end result. Yet, you're giving SAR grief for supporting him (and yes, that is what you're doing) while you're supporting another bad QB. Try and spin it anyway you want, that's still the reality of it.

[McGinley]

Originally Posted by detjetsfan

2011 Broncos w/Tebow - 8-8

2012 Broncos w/Manning - 13-3


Hmmm...

That's not really fair. You're comparing Tim to the greatest QB of all time.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by SAR I

Playmakers Mark had earlier in his career:

Edwards,
Holmes,
Cotchery,
Burress,
Keller,
Tomlinson,
Richardson,
Jones,
Greene (young),
Washington.

Replacement players this/last year:

Schillens,
Hill,
Kerley,
McKnight,
Connor,
Gates,
Hilliard,
Reuland,
Gilyard,
Greene (old).

Find me 1 player that's a better one-for-one swap of the guy he replaced. You can't. We have the worst set of receiving targets in the NFL. It's hard to be a good QB when you have nothing to throw to. Note that I did not list the OL fails. Note that I did not list the Coordinator fail. Note that I did not list the Tebow distraction.

So, no, I can't tell you where he's improved because it's impossible. The 787 sitting in the hangar at JFK might be the best plane in the fleet but if two of its engines are missing and it has no fuel it's useless and impossible to judge until repaired.

This is getting monotonous. Any level-headed NFL fan can see that the Jets have a pathetic offense that even Tom Brady would fail with. If you can't see that, sorry, not my problem.

SAR I

Bull**** SAR, Tom Brady wouldn't fail with this offense. He might not make it to the SB, but he'd do a hell of a lot better than Sanchez did with it.

Speaking of Sanchez, I love the way you ignore the fact that HE WAS EXPECTED TO PROGRESS like every other QB in the NFL is expected to.

How do you not get that ? Oh, but Marky Mark doesn't have a top 5 running game this year or last!! And his receivers aren't as good !!

Welp, guess what >? Mark was supposed to have IMPROVED. That's what QBs are supposed to do over time. What that means is that he should get similar productivity out of lesser players. Why ? Because HE'S supposed to be better as a QB.

Maybe you'll understand it from the defensive side ? You are a CB coming out of college. You are a rookie, so the team protects you by only putting you in on sub packages where you're a dime back. Even into your second year, this continues, but the team starts rolling you out as a regular cover corner now and then.

In your third season, they ask you to step the **** up and be the #2 CB. Why ? Because you now have 2 freaking seasons under your belt, and it's expected that you would have improved. That you could stand on your own. That you don't need someone else out there holding you up by your jockstrap.