Is the Patriots offense a "gimmick" offense

[adpz]

Originally Posted by PatriotReign

I think Montana is the GOAT but am curious where you rank Brady? You can't deny his is one of the GOAT...no?

I would put Brady #3 behind Montana and Bradshaw. I like to see Brady get beat as much as anybody, but lost in that oftentimes is his underdog status when he came into the league - and I can always appreciate that part of the story. Brady is a HOF no matter if he ended up in NE or wherever, he just has it - and I think he'll have it until the day he decides to leave - like Montana.

Talking about underdogs, I'd also have to put Kurt Warner fairly high on my list - as far as pure QB play and big-game ability. Another underdog story that's is hard not to like, even if he seems a little b****y on TV these days.

[patman]

Originally Posted by SDJETS

It's BB's ideas, but someone still has to execute it. Without Brady, that offense doesn't run, period. Peyton could probably run it (well, depending on the arm now).

Sorry, what i was referring to was the hurry up portion. Not running the whole offense or even making the right read in the hurry up. I am talking about practicing it again and again with 10 different scenarios. Sometimes it is a long bomb, that WR runs close to the sidelines and up the field, if he sees that the D subs he runs back to the LOS. yesterday the refs were not getting out of the way after spotting the ball quick enough. I thought i saw Brady telling the ref to hurry. Once the ball is placed the play starts.

[long island leprechaun]

Originally Posted by adpz

I would put Brady #3 behind Montana and Bradshaw. I like to see Brady get beat as much as anybody, but lost in that oftentimes is his underdog status when he came into the league - and I can always appreciate that part of the story. Brady is a HOF no matter if he ended up in NE or wherever, he just has it - and I think he'll have it until the day he decides to leave - like Montana.

Talking about underdogs, I'd also have to put Kurt Warner fairly high on my list - as far as pure QB play and big-game ability. Another underdog story that's is hard not to like, even if he seems a little b****y on TV these days.

I can't see how you would rank Bradshaw ahead of Brady. His regular season stats are frankly mediocre relative to other QB's in his era. He was a titan in the post-season and deserves all the credit he gets for that, but Brady's performance is more exceptional overall. JMHO.

[PMarsico9]

Originally Posted by PatriotReign

I think Montana is the GOAT but am curious where you rank Brady? You can't deny his is one of the GOAT...no?

Brady is top 5 with an asterisk.

They have to win a SB without cheating.

All-time QB lists are tricky:

Montana is the GOAT from a pure winner perspective.

Bradshaw is similar, but it's pretty much accepted that Montana was better than Bradshaw.

Then you have to factor in Peyton and Marino. I mean obviously Peyton has one SB win, but for all the "greatest personnel guy ever" hype Polian gets, he stepped in **** that one year with Bob Sanders staying healthy and Peyton finally winning a SB. He did an overall dismal job getting Peyton what he needed to win multiple titles. You could say he did a similar job with the Bills in the late 80's early 90's, too. Always a bridesmaid but never a bride, essentially. And those Bills teams were an extraordinarily sexy bridesmaid. He never could get them over that hump, though.

Then you get to Marino.

I'll put it to you this way:

If you say to me, you can watch one QB for the rest of your life play football and only him, then I don't think that ANYBODY who saw Marino do what he did during his prime could say anything against an argument that he was the greatest pure passer in history.

He didn't win a Super Bowl, though.

So from the perspective of pure passing talent, I'd want to watch Marino more than all others. My sentiment here is similar to those who saw a healthy Namath play at 'Bama. Many people I know (my father for instance, who saw Marino play in HIGH SCHOOL LOL) maintain that Namath was the best pure passer prior to the blown knees, ever.

So my rankings are something like this:


Peyton
Marino
Montana
Brady*
Bradshaw

Then comes the part where it gets weird.

Pats fans can roll eyes at that all they want, but the truth of the matter is that spygate and the absolute miracle that this play was:



And how this single play eclipsed the most dominant regular season by a team ever.

If Eli wins 1-2 more titles, then does he rank higher? If he hits 4?

I don't know. I do think he is one of the most impervious-to-pressure QB's I've ever seen. Impervious is probably the wrong word. Oblivious may be better.

Let me see if I can TL;DR this:

Montana, Brady, and Bradshaw are similar in that it was a combination of the QB's talent, the team's defense (Brady hasn't won a title as the defensive edge that the video tape used to give them has gone away,) and the offensive system culminated in a QB's greatness.

It is inarguable to say that Peyton and Marino were more talented pure passers than either of the other 3.

Eli gets love from me because of the fascination factor: He's essentially, in my eyes, some sort of savant.

Elway is a rung below Peyton and Marino.

But if you tell me I get to watch one more football game for the rest of my life and I get to pick a QB to watch, then it's definitely Marino.

[PMarsico9]

I'm going to go a step further here and try to clarify my thoughts a little bit more:

I would say that Marino, probably Elway, and likely Peyton Manning could have been inserted into the same situations as Brady, Bradshaw, and Montana and done the same if not better than they did.

That is not to take anything away from Montana, Brady, or Bradshaw. It's simply to highlight the difference here.

If we were talking baseball, Peyton, Elway, and Marino would be more akin to Bob Gibson. Once-in-a-lifetime type talents. Montana and Bradshaw would be more akin to Greg Maddux.

Great in their own right, but not forcing rule changes.

Unfortunately, I view Brady similar to Roger Clemens. Not to that degree, because he should still be first ballot, but he did benefit from a little extra.......that's without dispute in my mind.

[Monsterxman]

Originally Posted by PMarsico9

I'm going to go a step further here and try to clarify my thoughts a little bit more:

I would say that Marino, probably Elway, and likely Peyton Manning could have been inserted into the same situations as Brady, Bradshaw, and Montana and done the same if not better than they did.

That is not to take anything away from Montana, Brady, or Bradshaw. It's simply to highlight the difference here.

If we were talking baseball, Peyton, Elway, and Marino would be more akin to Bob Gibson. Once-in-a-lifetime type talents. Montana and Bradshaw would be more akin to Greg Maddux.

Great in their own right, but not forcing rule changes.

Unfortunately, I view Brady similar to Roger Clemens. Not to that degree, because he should still be first ballot, but he did benefit from a little extra.......that's without dispute in my mind.

A couple of great posts + I agree Marino was the most talented QB I’ve ever seen play.

[Rah_Rah_19]

Originally Posted by PMarsico9

I'm going to go a step further here and try to clarify my thoughts a little bit more:

I would say that Marino, probably Elway, and likely Peyton Manning could have been inserted into the same situations as Brady, Bradshaw, and Montana and done the same if not better than they did.

That is not to take anything away from Montana, Brady, or Bradshaw. It's simply to highlight the difference here.

If we were talking baseball, Peyton, Elway, and Marino would be more akin to Bob Gibson. Once-in-a-lifetime type talents. Montana and Bradshaw would be more akin to Greg Maddux.

Great in their own right, but not forcing rule changes.

Unfortunately, I view Brady similar to Roger Clemens. Not to that degree, because he should still be first ballot, but he did benefit from a little extra.......that's without dispute in my mind.

You think Captain One and Done could be inserted into one of those teams and win a SB? He's had a top 5 scoring defense 3 times now (2005, 2007 and this year) and in all 3 cases he went one and done with a bye at home. The guy is a choker. The year he won a SB he played terribly and was carried to a title.

[ASG0531]

Originally Posted by SDJETS

I honestly haven't watched enough of Rodgers on a game by game basis to have a sense of whether he has the quick decision making, calculating, and non-gunslinger approach to run the system. He's definitely got the numbers, I just don't really watch the Packers that much...

He has better accuracy than Brady and can throw much better on the run as well. Belichick would put up even more points with an offense designed around him. So yeah, I'm basically calling him better, but it's hypothetical and almost splitting hairs when you get down to it.

[PatriotReign]

Originally Posted by PMarsico9

Brady is top 5 with an asterisk.

They have to win a SB without cheating.

All-time QB lists are tricky:

Montana is the GOAT from a pure winner perspective.

Bradshaw is similar, but it's pretty much accepted that Montana was better than Bradshaw.

Then you have to factor in Peyton and Marino. I mean obviously Peyton has one SB win, but for all the "greatest personnel guy ever" hype Polian gets, he stepped in **** that one year with Bob Sanders staying healthy and Peyton finally winning a SB. He did an overall dismal job getting Peyton what he needed to win multiple titles. You could say he did a similar job with the Bills in the late 80's early 90's, too. Always a bridesmaid but never a bride, essentially. And those Bills teams were an extraordinarily sexy bridesmaid. He never could get them over that hump, though.

Then you get to Marino.

I'll put it to you this way:

If you say to me, you can watch one QB for the rest of your life play football and only him, then I don't think that ANYBODY who saw Marino do what he did during his prime could say anything against an argument that he was the greatest pure passer in history.

He didn't win a Super Bowl, though.

So from the perspective of pure passing talent, I'd want to watch Marino more than all others. My sentiment here is similar to those who saw a healthy Namath play at 'Bama. Many people I know (my father for instance, who saw Marino play in HIGH SCHOOL LOL) maintain that Namath was the best pure passer prior to the blown knees, ever.

So my rankings are something like this:


Peyton
Marino
Montana
Brady*
Bradshaw

Then comes the part where it gets weird.

Pats fans can roll eyes at that all they want, but the truth of the matter is that spygate and the absolute miracle that this play was:

You contradict yourself a bit here with the SB as a determining factor yet dismissing it in the case of Marino but I understand your point. The Tyree miracle catch observation is confusing. If he had not held onto the ball that would've negated "they haven't won since spygate"? Mind you that I am not trying to rehash that chestnut just pointing out that one play in and of itself defines how great (or not) that Brady is(?) Not following the logic there...

Peyton is one of the GOAT regular season QBs but he has been mediocre by "elite QB standards" post season in comparison to Brady.

[Monsterxman]

Originally Posted by Rah_Rah_19

You think Captain One and Done could be inserted into one of those teams and win a SB? He's had a top 5 scoring defense 3 times now (2005, 2007 and this year) and in all 3 cases he went one and done with a bye at home. The guy is a choker. The year he won a SB he played terribly and was carried to a title.

And how many points did that “great” Denver defense give up?

Put him back in his prime (before 4 re-constructive surgeries), then give him a coach like BB or Walsh, receivers like Rice or Moss… or defenses like those early Pats teams. It's not like Brady ever carried the Pats to a Superbowl victory...

[Monsterxman]

Originally Posted by PatriotReign

You contradict yourself a bit here with the SB as a determining factor yet dismissing it in the case of Marino but I understand your point. The Tyree miracle catch observation is confusing. If he had not held onto the ball that would've negated "they haven't won since spygate"? Mind you that I am not trying to rehash that chestnut just pointing out that one play in and of itself defines how great (or not) that Brady is(?) Not following the logic there...

Peyton is one of the GOAT regular season QBs but he has been mediocre by "elite QB standards" post season in comparison to Brady.

just like Eli has been a mediocre regular season QB, but more elite QB in the playoffs vs Brady.

Does that make Eli better?

[CleatMarks]

Originally Posted by Monsterxman

And how many points did that “great” Denver defense give up?

Put him back in his prime (before 4 re-constructive surgeries), then give him a coach like BB or Walsh, receivers like Rice or Moss… or defenses like those early Pats teams. It's not like Brady ever carried the Pats to a Superbowl victory...

He had 2 interceptions and a fumble on his side of the field. How difficult is it for a competent playoff offense to go 30 yards (and a pick 6) ?


On the Super Bowl

You're right. Bledsoe got it done with the same defense too

[Dirtstar]

Originally Posted by long island leprechaun

Yeah, a gimmick that works. How the Pats manage to run that hurry-up, no huddle without illegal procedure penalties is astonishing. You need a Tom Brady to run it though. Lots of lightning quick decisions and need for very disciplined players. Most teams couldn't run it.

it's one thing to run that offense without committing penalties.


it's another thing entirely to run it without having to worry about those penalties being called

[PMarsico9]

Originally Posted by Rah_Rah_19

You think Captain One and Done could be inserted into one of those teams and win a SB? He's had a top 5 scoring defense 3 times now (2005, 2007 and this year) and in all 3 cases he went one and done with a bye at home. The guy is a choker. The year he won a SB he played terribly and was carried to a title.

2005: Vanderjagt missed. Not making excuses but again, what are the odds? Most accurate kicker in NFL history misses. Outside of the crap call on Hair's pick, Peyton was brilliant.

2007: Defense fails Peyton. LT/Turner.

This year?

Did you watch that game? Under a minute left and both the defensive coordinator and safeties don't realize to not get beat deep?

LOL. That's not on him. With that said, he has a title and his stats are cartoon-ish.

[NYCFan]

I know it's the middle of winter, but there are a lot of "sour grapes" in this thread.

"Illegal picks."

"Gimmicks."

Getting a play off "too fast" before the other guys figure out what's going on.

In a "parity" League, the Pats have figured out that the difference between winning and losing (aside from the small matter of having a HOF QB) is taking every edge you can take, exploiting every conceivable advantage you can find and stretching every rule to its limit until your are penalized or told to stop.

Most other teams can only dream of "gimmicks" like that.

PS: I wonder how many nanoseconds it took Belichick to post every one of that idiot's comments in 40 point bold typeface on the bulletin board in the Patriots locker room. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

[Monsterxman]

Originally Posted by CleatMarks

He had 2 interceptions and a fumble on his side of the field. How difficult is it for a competent playoff offense to go 30 yards (and a pick 6) ?


On the Super Bowl

You're right. Bledsoe got it done with the same defense too

The first INT, was a perfect throw but the defender obviously pass interfered and the refs blew the call. Happens.

the later INT was due to him not having the arm strength he once did to complete a pass without having his feet set.

I'm not a Peyton Manning apologist, but he's 38 and coming back from 4 re-constructive shoulder/neck surgeries...

He's not nearly the physical specimen he once was throwing the ball.

Whatever though...

[CleatMarks]

Originally Posted by Monsterxman

The first INT, was a perfect throw but the defender obviously pass interfered and the refs blew the call. Happens.

the later INT was due to him not having the arm strength he once did to complete a pass without having his feet set.

I'm not a Peyton Manning apologist, but he's 38 and coming back from 4 re-constructive shoulder/neck surgeries...

He's not nearly the physical specimen he once was throwing the ball.

Whatever though...

My point is that the defense was put into a bad position numerous times. It doesn't matter how. Blaming the points given up on the the defense isn't really the complete story. There were horrendous breakdowns but the offense didn't help either. Don't forget, the special teams for Denver was spectacular. Even when they didn't score, they put the offense in great field position.

[Fixit]

Originally Posted by PMarsico9

Brady is top 5 with an asterisk.

They have to win a SB without cheating.

All-time QB lists are tricky:

Montana is the GOAT from a pure winner perspective.

Bradshaw is similar, but it's pretty much accepted that Montana was better than Bradshaw.

Then you have to factor in Peyton and Marino. I mean obviously Peyton has one SB win, but for all the "greatest personnel guy ever" hype Polian gets, he stepped in **** that one year with Bob Sanders staying healthy and Peyton finally winning a SB. He did an overall dismal job getting Peyton what he needed to win multiple titles. You could say he did a similar job with the Bills in the late 80's early 90's, too. Always a bridesmaid but never a bride, essentially. And those Bills teams were an extraordinarily sexy bridesmaid. He never could get them over that hump, though.

Then you get to Marino.

I'll put it to you this way:

If you say to me, you can watch one QB for the rest of your life play football and only him, then I don't think that ANYBODY who saw Marino do what he did during his prime could say anything against an argument that he was the greatest pure passer in history.

He didn't win a Super Bowl, though.

So from the perspective of pure passing talent, I'd want to watch Marino more than all others. My sentiment here is similar to those who saw a healthy Namath play at 'Bama. Many people I know (my father for instance, who saw Marino play in HIGH SCHOOL LOL) maintain that Namath was the best pure passer prior to the blown knees, ever.

So my rankings are something like this:


Peyton
Marino
Montana
Brady*
Bradshaw

Then comes the part where it gets weird.

Pats fans can roll eyes at that all they want, but the truth of the matter is that spygate and the absolute miracle that this play was:



And how this single play eclipsed the most dominant regular season by a team ever.

If Eli wins 1-2 more titles, then does he rank higher? If he hits 4?

I don't know. I do think he is one of the most impervious-to-pressure QB's I've ever seen. Impervious is probably the wrong word. Oblivious may be better.

Let me see if I can TL;DR this:

Montana, Brady, and Bradshaw are similar in that it was a combination of the QB's talent, the team's defense (Brady hasn't won a title as the defensive edge that the video tape used to give them has gone away,) and the offensive system culminated in a QB's greatness.

It is inarguable to say that Peyton and Marino were more talented pure passers than either of the other 3.

Eli gets love from me because of the fascination factor: He's essentially, in my eyes, some sort of savant.

Elway is a rung below Peyton and Marino.

But if you tell me I get to watch one more football game for the rest of my life and I get to pick a QB to watch, then it's definitely Marino.

This is full of clueless. Wow.

[PMarsico9]

Originally Posted by PatriotReign

You contradict yourself a bit here with the SB as a determining factor yet dismissing it in the case of Marino but I understand your point. The Tyree miracle catch observation is confusing. If he had not held onto the ball that would've negated "they haven't won since spygate"? Mind you that I am not trying to rehash that chestnut just pointing out that one play in and of itself defines how great (or not) that Brady is(?) Not following the logic there...

Peyton is one of the GOAT regular season QBs but he has been mediocre by "elite QB standards" post season in comparison to Brady.

It is confusing and unclear because the weights of your and my measurements are largely subjective.

The one thing that any fan of a team in the AFC East can confirm is that over the past 20 years, there's been some great QBs in this division:

Marino, Kelly, Bledsoe, Brady, Peyton (prior to realignment, although a very early version of Peyton,) and for that one year Favre.

My subjectivity of the 2007 catch is similar to David hitting Goliath in the eye with a rock and killing him. That Pats team was ridiculous. Best football team I've ever seen. First team I will say that would've crapped on the 80's and 90's Niners and Cowboys (whichever team Haley was on at the time.)

That play is defining for Brady because it prevented one of (if not the) greatest QB in his greatest season from finishing off undefeated with a title.

That single avoided pass rush and pass by Manning overshadowed what, 50 TDs by Brady?

Moss' greatest receiving year ever? A crazy-good season by the Pats defense?

Belichick's ability to keep a 15-0 team motivated enough to edge out those Giants in week 17?

That, to me, is probably the greatest pass in NFL history next to Immaculate Reception. Which only surpasses it by how freakish a ball bouncing off a foot is.

Let me touch on Charles Haley too:

Would you rather have Michael Strahan or Haley?

It's similar in comparing Brady to Manning.

[PatriotReign]

Originally Posted by Monsterxman

just like Eli has been a mediocre regular season QB, but more elite QB in the playoffs vs Brady.

Does that make Eli better?

Point taken so why isn't Eli held in the same conversation as his brother? Just kind of shows you how convoluted these discussions can get. I think Peyton is a more skilled and better regular season QB but I'd take Eli over Peyton in a must win playoff game.