Can you continue to pay psl just not renew tickets

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Dcat

$350 for Steelers and $250 for Phins would be closer to LSL prices based on past years. I've sold Mezz A corner (row 8) for $175 for Phins and the equivalent of serlling to traveling Steeler fans (traveling Ravens fans just as ardent) got $275 for home opener. Row 1 should do about the same considering there will be a much greater supply on the market this coming year than in past years.

I've never listed Jets tickets on StubHub before the actual week of the game in question as it's always a last-minute thing that forces me to miss a game.

So I've never been able to tap into the lucrative "pre-planned trip" market for visiting fans. All those sites that package together airfare + hotel + game tickets, all those fans who have never been to Manhattan and want to see their Steelers play a guaranteed-win game in the big city, all those older-father Raiders fans on Long Island who only get to see them once every 5 years, the Saints fans who travel in groups hitting the Big City.

So if I routinely get 2x face value for the big games every year (Patriots, 49ers, Dolphins) in last-minute fashion the week of the game methinks I've got a lot more money coming my way for Row 1 Mezz A's from out of town travel agencies, ticket brokers, package-deal people, as well as Birthday/Father's Day early buyers out there. Row 1 makes a huge difference as does the very affordable face value of $125 compared to other sections.

SAR I

[Timmy®]

Originally Posted by SAR I

If the 3 remaining seats in my row opened up, I'd grab them all in a heartbeat.

SAR I

you'd be better off taking that money in one dollar bills and throwing it into your fireplace, so your house could be warm for five seconds.

[Dcat]

Originally Posted by SAR I

I've never listed Jets tickets on StubHub before the actual week of the game in question as it's always a last-minute thing that forces me to miss a game.

So I've never been able to tap into the lucrative "pre-planned trip" market for visiting fans. All those sites that package together airfare + hotel + game tickets, all those fans who have never been to Manhattan and want to see their Steelers play a guaranteed-win game in the big city, all those Raiders fans on Long Island who only get to see them once every 5 years, the Saints fans who travel in groups hitting the Big City.

So if I routinely get 2x face value for the big games every year (Patriots, 49ers, Dolphins) in last-minute fashion the week of the game methinks I've got a lot more money coming my way for Row 1 Mezz A's from out of town travel agencies, ticket brokers, package-deal people, as well as Birthday/Father's Day early buyers out there. Row 1 makes a huge difference as does the very affordable face value of $125 compared to other sections.

SAR I

LSL are $145. On some game days, you can get Mezz clubs (sideline, not goal line) for well under that. I actually like the Mezz clubs. As long as I can profit off of the LSL seats, I can always buy clubs for less the night before or the morning of the game.

[Traitor Jay & the Woodies]

Originally Posted by Flushing Roots

Do the math and consider next year before you pull the trigger. If you want to go to every game including the 2 preseason games - go for it. If you don't want to go to the 2 preseason games and want to go to 4 to 5 1 PM starts and forgo the 8:30 starts that get you home at 2 in the morning - hold off. You will be able to score the seats you are eyeballing on SH for under face next year. Those prices are tempting but call me crazy, I think the PSL resale prices for the Jets will tank further and you will get an even better deal next year or the year after.

I'm well versed in this argument. I believe I may have actually invented it...

The secondary market is working its magic and for the sections I'm interested in sitting, you won't find a better deal next year. The club market has pretty much bottomed.

The problem is not the PSL price, it is the ticket price.

[crasherino]

Originally Posted by Dcat

For several games last year, I sold my LSL's in 135 for a nice profit weeks before the game and the night before or morning of the game, 3 of us decided to go after all and bought Mezz clubs between the 20-40 for way less than their face and twice below face for the LSL seats! (This included the Thanksgiving game and a couple of others after the midpoint of the season). The three of us ended sitting in the clubs for very little money. Worked out great for bad weather games.

As long as the Jets have Sanchez and will continue to suck because of the stupidity of starting Sanchez, we should be able to get away with this. Sell your regular seats weeks ahead to opposing fans (who welcome watching the Jets start the worst starting QB in franchise history) for a profit and then buy club seats on game day for less than $150 (in one case $80/ticket).

If you didn't have to pay for the Pre Season games, that would be a fairly viable strategy even if you were paying off an allocated share of the PSL cost. Just curious, based on what you've seen over the past few years, if you were to sell every game, including pre-season, do you think you could turn a profit?

Regardless, you are then essentially defeating the purpose of having Season Tickets. The whole concept of sitting in the same seat, with the same (general) people and not having to worry about looking for tickets (time is money, etc.) is worth something to some people and is one of the main, non-financial reasons to have STs.

Personally, I don't mind buying tickets last minute. I enjoy the search and don't mind the uncertainty. But there have been instances where I do devote significant time wading through tickets waiting til the night before/morning of the game in order to pull the trigger. But some people don't want to spend their time doing that.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by E4orBust

SAR, please. You're suggesting that if 80% of PSL owners default and the Jets take back those seats, that it will become HARDER to get tickets? The Jets aren't going to re-sell them for what reason, spite? the Jets will sell them for whatever they can get for them, game by game on whatever forum they can. and it won't be the old face levels, the very levels that caused 80% of fans to leave, in your example.

you truly are the only person who could think that 80% of PSL owners defaulting would actually help the value of tickets.

You aren't getting the point.

The StubHub fans aren't in it to buy seats at face value. They want to buy seats at a deep discount. And the deep discounts dry up when the PSL holders dry up.

If you watch StubHub the way I do you'll see that there are around 9,000 seats available during a typical week of a typical game. Sunday night and Monday, the good locations get scooped up. By the time Thursday rolls around, you're down to 4,000 seats. Then everyone drops their drawers and all 4,000 sell out very quickly for the last few days at stupid prices.

The tickets won't be "harder" to get. I never said that. But $150 seats being scooped up for $40 will stop. That's the point. The people who think that giving up PSL's will allow them to have any seat they want in the house at a stupid price gets harder and harder with every PSL owner who gives up their licenses.

This is nonsense anyway because the Jets won't have 80% of their fans defaulting on PSL's, but the point is that the StubHub "option" you think you have doesn't exist. Fewer seats in fans hands means we can raise our prices, more seats in the Jets hands means more seats at face value. StubHub is a gift that PSL owners give to the non-PSL owners. Least they could do is say "thank you".

SAR I

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Timmy®

you'd be better off taking that money in one dollar bills and throwing it into your fireplace, so your house could be warm for five seconds.

I'm in a fortunate financial position where I could do that if I chose to. But we're not talking about me here as I have no intention of giving up my PSL's anyway.

Today's epiphany is a real mind-bender for the anti-PSL crowd. Not sure they're going to grasp it. They seem to forget who's their daddy when it comes to the StubHub free-for-all and how quickly it goes away if they screw themselves by giving up their PSL's.

SAR I

[Traitor Jay & the Woodies]

Originally Posted by SAR I

The other way to look at it:

The 2013 season is a banner year for visiting teams:

Pittsburgh
Oakland
New Orleans
Miami
New England

The seats that he is considering should be worth 2x or more for those games. If he buys the PSL's at a discount, sells the entire season on StubHub, he should do very well, make enough incremental to help pay down that PSL markedly, then start attending games in 2014.

The math on my seats, so we can see a percentage is this (face value for 4 seats is $500):

Pittsburgh: $1500
Oakland: $1000
New Orleans: $800
Miami: $1000
New England: $1000
Buffalo: $500
Cleveland: $500
Tampa Bay: $600

Total spent: $4,000
Total intake: $6,900

Preseason loss: (-$500)

Net income; +$2,400

A plus of $2,400 on a spend of $5,000 is an increase of 48%, so if he applies that to more expensive seats, there's the potential of this season producing $5,000 or more if going the StubHub route.

SAR I

I don't doubt that LL and Mezz A people get double and sometimes triple face for select games and can create enough of a margin that the resale subsidizes a large chunk of their annual spend.

My problem is that I don't believe that you can't extrapolate that game to Club Mezz and that is really the only place in the stadium I care to sit. I'm sure that is why so many of these club PSLs can be had for dimes on the dollar...

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Dcat

LSL are $145. On some game days, you can get Mezz clubs (sideline, not goal line) for well under that. I actually like the Mezz clubs. As long as I can profit off of the LSL seats, I can always buy clubs for less the night before or the morning of the game.

My Row 1 Mezz A's have gotten 2x face value for 3 of the 6 games I haven't attended the past few seasons and that includes unattractive Monday/Sunday nighters.

And I'm thinking that my Raiders tickets make a great Father's Day present on June 25 for someone and I've never listed seats that early before.

It will be interesting. Worst case, I don't get the money I think I've got coming and I just go to the games anyway, will be fun to boo Rex Ryan some more, something worthy of my lungs in this terrible period we're entering.

SAR I

[E4orBust]

Originally Posted by SAR I

You aren't getting the point.

The StubHub fans aren't in it to buy seats at face value. They want to buy seats at a deep discount. And the deep discounts dry up when the PSL holders dry up.

If you watch StubHub the way I do you'll see that there are around 9,000 seats available during a typical week of a typical game. Sunday night and Monday, the good locations get scooped up. By the time Thursday rolls around, you're down to 4,000 seats. Then everyone drops their drawers and all 4,000 sell out very quickly for the last few days at stupid prices.

The tickets won't be "harder" to get. I never said that. But $150 seats being scooped up for $40 will stop. That's the point. The people who think that giving up PSL's will allow them to have any seat they want in the house at a stupid price gets harder and harder with every PSL owner who gives up their licenses.

This is nonsense anyway because the Jets won't have 80% of their fans defaulting on PSL's, but the point is that the StubHub "option" you think you have doesn't exist. Fewer seats in fans hands means we can raise our prices, more seats in the Jets hands means more seats at face value. StubHub is a gift that PSL owners give to the non-PSL owners. Least they could do is say "thank you".

SAR I

Stubhub buyers don't care what face value is. it could be $1 or $1000. the tickets will trade at the same levels regardless. it's simple supply and demand. your seats sell for much more than my seats, but the face is similar.

you say "more seats in the Jets hands means more seats at face value". as we've seen in the upper deck, that's not the case. it means "more seats the Jets will have to reduce the price on, if they want to sell them"... whatever forces are at play that result in PSL owners defaulting, to whatever degree, will also be at play when the Jets try to find other buyers for those seats. be it team performance, starting quarterback, primetime games, pre-season-requirement, locusts, or plague. doesn't matter.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies

My problem is that I don't believe that you can't extrapolate that game to Club Mezz and that is really the only place in the stadium I care to sit. I'm sure that is why so many of these club PSLs can be had for dimes on the dollar...

Ah, my bad, didn't realize you were talking Mezz Clubs. Those seats have the best views in the whole stadium but have the poorest resale value. Those visiting fans who want to spend Club money want to be down low to the action and those Jets fans who like the Mezz elevation would take one of the "A" corners which are always able to undercut Mezz Club pricing.

Lets say I get $180 for a $125 ticket from a Buccaneers fan, a typical nice bump.

That Club seat right next to mine is $200 a ticket face and he'll ask for $250 which helps my ticket sell and later in the week he'll be lucky to get face value in light of what I'm offering mine for, in many cases has to match my price, he loses 10% while I've made 44%.

Mezz Clubs are resale poison. Go lower level or shoot for a Mezz A corner. It's a compromise to the view, but the tradeoff on the financial side is immeasurable.

SAR I

[E4orBust]

Originally Posted by SAR I

You aren't getting the point.


SAR I

if that point is your "epiphany" that the more fans dump their PSLs back on the Jets, the more tickets the Jets control and thus the fewer tickets for sale on stubhub and thus higher stubhub prices, than i most certainly do not get the point.

the more tickets/PSLs that are dumped back on the Jets, the less the Jets will be able to charge new buyers for those tickets. if you don't see that, then you don't get the point. and it's pointless to explain it further.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by E4orBust

Stubhub buyers don't care what face value is. it could be $1 or $1000. the tickets will trade at the same levels regardless. it's simple supply and demand. your seats sell for much more than my seats, but the face is similar.

you say "more seats in the Jets hands means more seats at face value". as we've seen in the upper deck, that's not the case. it means "more seats the Jets will have to reduce the price on, if they want to sell them"... whatever forces are at play that result in PSL owners defaulting, to whatever degree, will also be at play when the Jets try to find other buyers for those seats. be it team performance, starting quarterback, primetime games, pre-season-requirement, locusts, or plague. doesn't matter.

The resale market from PSL owners and Season Ticket holders is variable.

The box office market from the Jets themselves is fixed.

The "supply and demand" argument works on the StubHub side only, the Jets fix their prices and do not discount outside of a perk like free parking to entice a PSL commitment.

As stated earlier, there are really only 4,300 seats in the whole building that meet the criteria of affordable + good view. The rest of the seats, especially the upper deck, are crap. So for every fan that gives up a PSL that's fewer seats on the market that meet the criteria.

Just look at yourself, for example. You said earlier that you're lucky to get 50% of face value for your seats. Well, that means that some StubHub fan out there got a great deal. If you give your seats back to the Jets, your seats either sell for face value or they don't sell at all. That's what I'm talking about. The StubHub ecosystem is not sustainable, especially if the team gets good again.

SAR I

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by E4orBust

if that point is your "epiphany" that the more fans dump their PSLs back on the Jets, the more tickets the Jets control and thus the fewer tickets for sale on stubhub and thus higher stubhub prices, than i most certainly do not get the point.

the more tickets/PSLs that are dumped back on the Jets, the less the Jets will be able to charge new buyers for those tickets. if you don't see that, then you don't get the point. and it's pointless to explain it further.

Right now, 95% of all PSL seats are sold out.

Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, than 15% of those fans decide to bail out and default on their PSL's.

The Jets are charging face value to the 80% of PSL-holders. They will then try to sell the remaining tickets at the same face value. If they go to the box office and drop the prices on those seats, the PSL owners will raise hell and want a price reduction instead. So what will the Jets do? They would raise prices 10% on existing PSL owners, try to sell those 15% of PSL seats for face value, and use the price increase to offset whatever losses they'd get from the defaulted PSL seats. And in the end, that means 15% less tickets on StubHub at cheap prices.

The only thing that will come of this theoretical "mass PSL defection" is that remaining PSL owners will get price increases to offset the PSL seats the Jets are stuck with. The PSL defectors will have fewer seats to choose from on StubHub and thus the remaining PSL owners will raise their prices making many fans choose to buy tickets at face value from the Jets.

Again, the PSL owners are the supply-chain for StubHub. If we dry up, StubHub dries up. The Jets don't have to worry about the 15% of the PSL seats that are unsold because they have the other 85% of PSL owners to make up for it, not to mention the money they kept when you defaulted and the bump they'll get once they re-sell your PSL's to someone else in 5 years when we're good again. The Jets don't get hurt when PSL owners leave. PSL owners do. StubHub cheapskates do.

You feelin' the epiphany yet?

SAR I

[E4orBust]

Originally Posted by SAR I

The resale market from PSL owners and Season Ticket holders is variable.

The box office market from the Jets themselves is fixed.

The "supply and demand" argument works on the StubHub side only, the Jets fix their prices and do not discount outside of a perk like free parking to entice a PSL commitment.

As stated earlier, there are really only 4,300 seats in the whole building that meet the criteria of affordable + good view. The rest of the seats, especially the upper deck, are crap. So for every fan that gives up a PSL that's fewer seats on the market that meet the criteria.

Just look at yourself, for example. You said earlier that you're lucky to get 50% of face value for your seats. Well, that means that some StubHub fan out there got a great deal. If you give your seats back to the Jets, your seats either sell for face value or they don't sell at all. That's what I'm talking about. The StubHub ecosystem is not sustainable, especially if the team gets good again.

SAR I

i know what you're saying, i just disagree with your statement that the jets will either sell my seats at face or not sell them at all. they're not in the business of not selling seats.

the box office market from the jets is not fixed.

the Jets have discounted prices a lot more than your free parking example. They completely re-priced many PSL sections when sales were bad. they completely re-priced the upper deck when they found themselves back in possession of thousands of tickets. they would do the same in the lower 2 levels, if they found themselves in the same position. they won't just not sell the tickets. they'll do what they need to, ie lower face prices.

[E4orBust]

Originally Posted by SAR I

You feelin' the epiphany yet?

SAR I

no. sorry. we could have this discussion all day. actually we've had it for 3 years.

bottom line, who wants my PSLs and what would you pay?

[Dcat]

Originally Posted by crasherino

If you didn't have to pay for the Pre Season games, that would be a fairly viable strategy even if you were paying off an allocated share of the PSL cost. Just curious, based on what you've seen over the past few years, if you were to sell every game, including pre-season, do you think you could turn a profit?

Regardless, you are then essentially defeating the purpose of having Season Tickets. The whole concept of sitting in the same seat, with the same (general) people and not having to worry about looking for tickets (time is money, etc.) is worth something to some people and is one of the main, non-financial reasons to have STs.

Personally, I don't mind buying tickets last minute. I enjoy the search and don't mind the uncertainty. But there have been instances where I do devote significant time wading through tickets waiting til the night before/morning of the game in order to pull the trigger. But some people don't want to spend their time doing that.

remember that I had 4 Mezz corners + 3 LSL's for the first 2 years. We usually sat LSL but there were a few games where we took the massive profit for the LSL and sat in the corner (only to slither back down to 135 after the 1st Qtr). Cumulatively, including pre-season, we definitely made more than our aggregate cost back on the ones we sold. Now that I dumped the Mezz corners and added LSL even in a bad year we would make more than our money back selling them. But I like the sell early and buy clubs for huge savings on the morning of the game approach. We aare going to ride that bus for several games per year while it lasts. Once the Jets get competetive again, this option will likely fade away.

[Traitor Jay & the Woodies]

Originally Posted by SAR I

Ah, my bad, didn't realize you were talking Mezz Clubs. Those seats have the best views in the whole stadium but have the poorest resale value. Those visiting fans who want to spend Club money want to be down low to the action and those Jets fans who like the Mezz elevation would take one of the "A" corners which are always able to undercut Mezz Club pricing.

Lets say I get $180 for a $125 ticket from a Buccaneers fan, a typical nice bump.

That Club seat right next to mine is $200 a ticket face and he'll ask for $250 which helps my ticket sell and later in the week he'll be lucky to get face value in light of what I'm offering mine for, in many cases has to match my price, he loses 10% while I've made 44%.

Mezz Clubs are resale poison. Go lower level or shoot for a Mezz A corner. It's a compromise to the view, but the tradeoff on the financial side is immeasurable.

SAR I

LL is out because I'm not standing all game. And after 27 years of sitting in the end zone, I'm not interested in that view anymore. UD is too high.

[Dcat]

Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies

LL is out because I'm not standing all game. And after 27 years of sitting in the end zone, I'm not interested in that view anymore. UD is too high.

in 135 you will stand a lot, that's for sure. Mezz corners you will not. Mezz clubs you will not stand ever.

Having LSL seats in 135 gives us a great opportunity to sit practically anywhere we want because the resales on 135 have been way better than expected. Phenomenal as a matter of fact. Certainly disproportionate to resales in mezz corners and probably anywhere else. I am enjoying selling those then buying clubs for way under their face, usually less than the face for my LSL on the day of the game. The only thing is you have to wait until the night before or morning of the game to get those discounts.

One Saturday night we watched 30 yard line Mezz clubs drop from $225 to $140. Then, on Sunday morning they continued to drop and we bought 4 of them for $85 each for a 1:00game. We grabbed them at 10:45am and off we went. We had sold the 5 LSL weeks earlier for $225 (minus 15% stub hub commission). 5 LSL @ $145 cost us $725. Sold them for 5 X $190 (appx net price after commission) for a total $950. Then bought 4 clubs @ $85 each. Net cost to me was $115 for 4 clubs on the 30 yard line. Not too shabby. Then factor in the cost of all the food we bought in the clubs (instead of tailgating) and therin lies the catch.

[sec.101row23]

Originally Posted by Dcat

in 135 you will stand a lot, that's for sure. Mezz corners you will not. Mezz clubs you will not stand ever.

Having LSL seats in 135 gives us a great opportunity to sit practically anywhere we want because the resales on 135 have been way better than expected. Phenomenal as a matter of fact. Certainly disproportionate to resales in mezz corners and probably anywhere else. I am enjoying selling those then buying clubs for way under their face, usually less than the face for my LSL on the day of the game. The only thing is you have to wait until the night before or morning of the game to get those discounts.

One Saturday night we watched 30 yard line Mezz clubs drop from $225 to $140. Then, on Sunday morning they continued to drop and we bought 4 of them for $85 each for a 1:00game. We grabbed them at 10:45am and off we went. We had sold the 5 LSL weeks earlier for $225 (minus 15% stub hub commission). 5 LSL @ $145 cost us $725. Sold them for 5 X $190 (appx net price after commission) for a total $950. Then bought 4 clubs @ $85 each. Net cost to me was $115 for 4 clubs on the 30 yard line. Not too shabby. Then factor in the cost of all the food we bought in the clubs (instead of tailgating) and therin lies the catch.

Thats why the Mezz Clubs are so over priced at face value. It is nothing more than a nice lounge area with food behind your seats, plus you still have to pay for everything you eat and drink. The only benefit to the Mezz Clubs is if the weather sucks, you have a place to escape the elements.