montee ball

[simijet]

Originally Posted by greenwichjetfan

Logic and real facts:

CMart won the rushing title in '04. That year, he had 371, most in the NFL. The person who lost to him by one yard, Shaun Alexander, had 353...17 carries less. CMart had a 4.5ypa that year, the 16th best in the NFL, and 12th best for a RB. That rushing title was won with 1,676 yards, tying him for 31st most yards in a single; clearly not a sign of taking the league hostage.

He won the rushing title simply because he was given the ball way more than anyone else.

http://www.totalfootballstats.com/Rush_Att_SS.asp?id=1
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/775/curtis-martin
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/rushing-yards-per-attempt

Additionally, his 4.0 career ypa is so pedestrian that he doesn't even show up on the career top 250 rushing ypa list.

That entire '04 season serves as a microcosm of the Jets offense under Hackett's supervision. They ran the ball and threw dump offs to CMart simply because he was the only player capable; with a cast of Pennington, Moss/Coles, and freaking Anthony Becht.

Sure teams gameplanned for him, but thats because we loterally had no pther threat for opposing teams to plan for. CMart would not have functioned the same way in the Eagles version of a WCO during those years, because he is not a traditional WCO back. We just made do with him and used/abused him till he literally broke down.

Now, there's something to be said for durability, toughness, and the fact that even after all that wear and tear 9 years into the league, he was still being given the ball 371 times...as I said initially, awesome guy and highly consistent. He just isn't the god so many of you make him out to be.

Again, as I said in my first post, I don't think he, or a clone of his, is worth the price of a first or second round pick given our new offensive direction, and other pressing needs.

How's that for logic and real facts?

[Savage69]

Originally Posted by greenwichjetfan

Logic and real facts:

CMart won the rushing title in '04. That year, he had 371, most in the NFL. The person who lost to him by one yard, Shaun Alexander, had 353...17 carries less. CMart had a 4.5ypa that year, the 16th best in the NFL, and 12th best for a RB. That rushing title was won with 1,676 yards, tying him for 31st most yards in a single; clearly not a sign of taking the league hostage.

He won the rushing title simply because he was given the ball way more than anyone else.

http://www.totalfootballstats.com/Rush_Att_SS.asp?id=1
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/775/curtis-martin
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/rushing-yards-per-attempt

Additionally, his 4.0 career ypa is so pedestrian that he doesn't even show up on the career top 250 rushing ypa list.

That entire '04 season serves as a microcosm of the Jets offense under Hackett's supervision. They ran the ball and threw dump offs to CMart simply because he was the only player capable; with a cast of Pennington, Moss/Coles, and freaking Anthony Becht.

Sure teams gameplanned for him, but thats because we loterally had no pther threat for opposing teams to plan for. CMart would not have functioned the same way in the Eagles version of a WCO during those years, because he is not a traditional WCO back. We just made do with him and used/abused him till he literally broke down.

Now, there's something to be said for durability, toughness, and the fact that even after all that wear and tear 9 years into the league, he was still being given the ball 371 times...as I said initially, awesome guy and highly consistent. He just isn't the god so many of you make him out to be.

Again, as I said in my first post, I don't think he, or a clone of his, is worth the price of a first or second round pick given our new offensive direction, and other pressing needs.

How's that for logic and real facts?

Splendid job GWJF... As I have said before I thought Martin was a fine durable workhorse back and a great role model.. In 04 we had 2 overtime games which helped his total if not for that he may have been behind not only Alexander but Cory Dillon as well.. Alexander had a 250K incentive bonus if he won the rushing title so Holmgren kept him on the bench in the 4th quarter.. He was pissed and asked to be traded after the season.. He got around the same amount of carries Cumar had in 05 and had 1880 yds and 27 tds.. Bottom line is for a huge contract and a 1st and 3rd pick was Martins 7 td's a year 4ypc avg worth it?? Greene may suck but he did more in his brief playoff shots then the compiler ever did..

[greenwichjetfan]

Originally Posted by Savage69

Splendid job GWJF.. In 04 we had 2 overtime games which helped his total if not for that he may have been behind not only Alexander but Cory Dillon as well.. Alexander had a 250K incentive bonus if he won the rushing title so Holmgren kept him on the bench in the 4th quarter..

Thanks. I was going to add the boldest part into my post as well, but his definition of 'logic and real facts' may not have incorporated qualitative analysis, and I didn't want the guy coming back and saying "that's all conjecture" or something of the sort. But I very distinctly remember CBS or Fox cutting to the game and the camera being glued to a fuming Shaun Alexander who knew he was one yard away but coach wouldn't let him get it.

[Tackleem]

Originally Posted by greenwichjetfan

If he's the next Curtis Martin (as three posts alluded to), I want nothing to do with him.

Curtis is a great guy and the purest definition of a workhorse...but he was not a WCO RB, nor was he ever a playmaker that opposing defenses had to gameplan around.

Not worth a first or second round pick when we have other needs.

I don't know if the Ball comparison to Martin is apt or not, but let me translate what you just said: "If this guy is going to be a future top-5 all-time rusher, hall-of-famer, and true professional, there's no way I want to take him in the second or possibly third round. I have scheme concerns."

I'm less than fully convinced.

[crasherino]

Originally Posted by Savage69

Splendid job GWJF... As I have said before I thought Martin was a fine durable workhorse back and a great role model.. In 04 we had 2 overtime games which helped his total if not for that he may have been behind not only Alexander but Cory Dillon as well.. Alexander had a 250K incentive bonus if he won the rushing title so Holmgren kept him on the bench in the 4th quarter.. He was pissed and asked to be traded after the season.. He got around the same amount of carries Cumar had in 05 and had 1880 yds and 27 tds.. Bottom line is for a huge contract and a 1st and 3rd pick was Martins 7 td's a year 4ypc avg worth it?? Greene may suck but he did more in his brief playoff shots then the compiler ever did..

So you are saying that if we had the chance to draft Cumar v.2 in the 2nd/3rd round in this draft, you'd "want nothing to do with it? Because that's what your disciple is saying. Just curious where you stand there - without the standard canned argument.

[AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite]

Originally Posted by crasherino

So you are saying that if we had the chance to draft Cumar v.2 in the 2nd/3rd round in this draft, you'd "want nothing to do with it? Because that's what your disciple is saying. Just curious where you stand there - without the standard canned argument.

Well, you'd be tying yourself to a RB that warrants a ton of carries with pedestrian production...

We're letting that walk away this year...

Granted, the draft pick would be cheaper, but as fans we should all hope to draft a game changer and not another JAG...

[NY's stepchild]

Originally Posted by J-E-F-F

I don't watch nearly enough college football to be able to accurately rank the running backs in this class. We need to come away from this draft with someone who could be a lead back.

Whenever I do see Ball play, he just keeps reminding me of Curtis Martin. So I'd be pretty happy if we draft him.

Try going on "Draft breakdown". They don't have much in terms of analysis, but what they do have is film of many players broken down into games, and plays where they highlight the player you're scouting. You can double click on the film and watch it full screen in really pretty good definition. On Dion Jordan they have every play from around 8 games this year, and they have at least a few games worth from most prospects. It's pretty damn cool. I can't believe I never heard of it. Just found it this morning.

[NY's stepchild]

Everyone has a point on CMart, but as always everyone takes it to far. He wasn't flashy, or even athletically gifted, but he was smart, determined, and consistent. 4 ypc averages are not all the same. If you get 2 yards 4 times and then 12 yards you average 4 ypc, but you only got one first down in 3 series. If you get 4 yards 5 times in a row, you probably just had a TD drive. Curtis was consistent, but never broke a big run to pad his stats. So yes he was a compiler, but he moved the chains. That said, it never did sit right with me that he didn't like football, and the year he played with 2 high ankle sprains seemed pretty selfish to me that he didn't sit himself down. That also contributed to his low career average however.

[greenwichjetfan]

Originally Posted by crasherino

So you are saying that if we had the chance to draft Cumar v.2 in the 2nd/3rd round in this draft, you'd "want nothing to do with it? Because that's what your disciple is saying. Just curious where you stand there - without the standard canned argument.

I'm not a disciple of anyone's.

If you're guaranteeing everything CMart was, then sign me up for a second round pick; no hesitation.

For all the bandwidth I took up, I made it very clear in both posts that I'm not taking anything away from him. CMart accomplished what he did because of a tremendous work ethic and an unconscionable toughness.

That is why I'm not wasting a second round pick on some kid who has similar tangible attributes.

There is only one CMart, and it had little to do with his running skills and what he could show at a combine. I'm sorry if that rubs people the wrongs way but its the truth, as proven earlier by 'logic and real facts.' In fact, CuMar worshippers should be rejoicing over that. He's an inspiration because of what he wasn't born with, not because of what he was.

[JoeyStylez]

Originally Posted by greenwichjetfan

Logic and real facts:

CMart won the rushing title in '04. That year, he had 371, most in the NFL. The person who lost to him by one yard, Shaun Alexander, had 353...17 carries less. CMart had a 4.5ypa that year, the 16th best in the NFL, and 12th best for a RB. That rushing title was won with 1,676 yards, tying him for 31st most yards in a single; clearly not a sign of taking the league hostage.

He won the rushing title simply because he was given the ball way more than anyone else.

http://www.totalfootballstats.com/Rush_Att_SS.asp?id=1
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/775/curtis-martin
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/rushing-yards-per-attempt

Additionally, his 4.0 career ypa is so pedestrian that he doesn't even show up on the career top 250 rushing ypa list.

That entire '04 season serves as a microcosm of the Jets offense under Hackett's supervision. They ran the ball and threw dump offs to CMart simply because he was the only player capable; with a cast of Pennington, Moss/Coles, and freaking Anthony Becht.

Sure teams gameplanned for him, but thats because we loterally had no pther threat for opposing teams to plan for. CMart would not have functioned the same way in the Eagles version of a WCO during those years, because he is not a traditional WCO back. We just made do with him and used/abused him till he literally broke down.

Now, there's something to be said for durability, toughness, and the fact that even after all that wear and tear 9 years into the league, he was still being given the ball 371 times...as I said initially, awesome guy and highly consistent. He just isn't the god so many of you make him out to be.

Again, as I said in my first post, I don't think he, or a clone of his, is worth the price of a first or second round pick given our new offensive direction, and other pressing needs.

How's that for logic and real facts?

So, are you happy? You spent so much time and effort trying to tear down a great NYJ player. Way to go, you are the perfect SOJF.

Rest assured, it isn't the Jets organization that is a laughingstock, it's the Jets fanbase. A bunch of emo, whiny poor-me babies who criticize EVERY FREAKING THING because God forbid they enjoy a great player when he comes along. "OMG he doesn't avg 5 yards a carry and he doesn't run a 4.2 40, he sucks!!!! This RB from another team is so much better!"

FYI Franco Harris, Marcus Allen, and Matt Snell all had career YPC of 4.1, Emmit Smith and Thurman Thomas had 4.2. All slightly better than Curtis. Guess they were all garbage too, right?

How's THAT for logic and facts?

[bcess]

Originally Posted by JoeyStylez

So, are you happy? You spent so much time and effort trying to tear down a great NYJ player. Way to go, you are the perfect SOJF.

Rest assured, it isn't the Jets organization that is a laughingstock, it's the Jets fanbase. A bunch of emo, whiny poor-me babies who criticize EVERY FREAKING THING because God forbid they enjoy a great player when he comes along. "OMG he doesn't avg 5 yards a carry and he doesn't run a 4.2 40, he sucks!!!! This RB from another team is so much better!"

FYI Franco Harris, Marcus Allen, and Matt Snell all had career YPC of 4.1, Emmit Smith and Thurman Thomas had 4.2. All slightly better than Curtis. Guess they were all garbage too, right?

How's THAT for logic and facts?

+1 nailed it

[greenwichjetfan]

Originally Posted by JoeyStylez

So, are you happy? You spent so much time and effort trying to tear down a great NYJ player. Way to go, you are the perfect SOJF.

Rest assured, it isn't the Jets organization that is a laughingstock, it's the Jets fanbase. A bunch of emo, whiny poor-me babies who criticize EVERY FREAKING THING because God forbid they enjoy a great player when he comes along. "OMG he doesn't avg 5 yards a carry and he doesn't run a 4.2 40, he sucks!!!! This RB from another team is so much better!"

FYI Franco Harris, Marcus Allen, and Matt Snell all had career YPC of 4.1, Emmit Smith and Thurman Thomas had 4.2. All slightly better than Curtis. Guess they were all garbage too, right?

How's THAT for logic and facts?

You asked me to back it up. I backed it up, and you're mad so you spin it into 'SOJF.'

Now I'm asking YOU to back something up: I have over 4000 posts on JI, and many other posters know my style. Go back and find a single one that matches your description of me. If anything other than objective or unbiased, I've been accused of homerism on multiple occasions.

Seriously, go back and tell me where I wasn't being fair. I can't help you if you feel slighted. All I'm doing is using the facts you asked me to produce, to make a point.

Edit to add: convenient of you to attack my fandom because I 'tore down' your hero by stating the facts you asked me to produce, and then not respond to all the positives that I listed about CMart in my three posts. And I'm the one with the slanted perception of my team or its players...

[BleedGnW]

Originally Posted by greenwichjetfan

Logic and real facts:

CMart won the rushing title in '04. That year, he had 371, most in the NFL. The person who lost to him by one yard, Shaun Alexander, had 353...17 carries less. CMart had a 4.5ypa that year, the 16th best in the NFL, and 12th best for a RB. That rushing title was won with 1,676 yards, tying him for 31st most yards in a single; clearly not a sign of taking the league hostage.


Additionally, his 4.0 career ypa is so pedestrian that he doesn't even show up on the career top 250 rushing ypa list.

1,676 yards and a 4.5 YPC average.

Hmm I'll take that any day of the damn week.

[JetsfanfromtheBURGH]

Originally Posted by BleedGnW

1,676 yards and a 4.5 YPC average.

Hmm I'll take that any day of the damn week.

Sign me up too.

[Peebag]

Originally Posted by greenwichjetfan

Logic and real facts:

CMart won the rushing title in '04. That year, he had 371, most in the NFL. The person who lost to him by one yard, Shaun Alexander, had 353...17 carries less. CMart had a 4.5ypa that year, the 16th best in the NFL, and 12th best for a RB. That rushing title was won with 1,676 yards, tying him for 31st most yards in a single; clearly not a sign of taking the league hostage.

He won the rushing title simply because he was given the ball way more than anyone else.

http://www.totalfootballstats.com/Rush_Att_SS.asp?id=1
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/775/curtis-martin
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/rushing-yards-per-attempt

Additionally, his 4.0 career ypa is so pedestrian that he doesn't even show up on the career top 250 rushing ypa list.

That entire '04 season serves as a microcosm of the Jets offense under Hackett's supervision. They ran the ball and threw dump offs to CMart simply because he was the only player capable; with a cast of Pennington, Moss/Coles, and freaking Anthony Becht.

Sure teams gameplanned for him, but thats because we loterally had no pther threat for opposing teams to plan for. CMart would not have functioned the same way in the Eagles version of a WCO during those years, because he is not a traditional WCO back. We just made do with him and used/abused him till he literally broke down.

Now, there's something to be said for durability, toughness, and the fact that even after all that wear and tear 9 years into the league, he was still being given the ball 371 times...as I said initially, awesome guy and highly consistent. He just isn't the god so many of you make him out to be.

Again, as I said in my first post, I don't think he, or a clone of his, is worth the price of a first or second round pick given our new offensive direction, and other pressing needs.

How's that for logic and real facts?

very excellent post!

[Savage69]

Originally Posted by BleedGnW

1,676 yards and a 4.5 YPC average.

Hmm I'll take that any day of the damn week.

Then you would have loved Tiki Barber in his 30's his last 2 years he put up 1860 yds 5.2 ypc and 1662 yds 5.1 ypc..

[Vegi5894]

As per the CMart comparisons....

I don't usually watch a lot of college ball, but luckily got to watch a lot of montee because my good friend is a Wisconsin fan and I'd go watch the badgers with him at the bar a good bit.

I'd say he's like CMart in that he's not flashy and he excels at following his blockers. He happened to have one of the better o lines in football and that worked to his advantage. He also lacks the blinding speed or run you over ability that CMart also lacked. Still tho, I love guys with vision, who have the patience to wait behind blockers for the hole to develop.

The biggest difference is that montee seems a little smaller than CMart and can catch the ball well out of the backfield. This is the biggest difference between them, and also the biggest reason why I think he would work well in the WCO.

Still tho, I'd rather nail a guy like Stephan Taylor, who is basically a prototype WCO RB, or lacy who's skills are lucrative enough to take and simply hope or rely on the fact that he can work himself into the system based off pure talent.

[FijiJet]

I would be thrilled if the Jets picked Werner/Moore/Mingo etc in the first and went with Montee Ball in the 2nd or 3rd. Jets need more firepower at RB then they had last year...

[BleedGnW]

Originally Posted by Savage69

Then you would have loved Tiki Barber in his 30's his last 2 years he put up 1860 yds 5.2 ypc and 1662 yds 5.1 ypc..

Yes I would have. He still had a bit more left in the tank too.

[revischrist]

Ball should scare people in the same way Barkley scares people. Ball comes from a school that always produces big numbers for their running backs but the RB's never really pan out in the NFL (Dayne/Fletcher/Clay/Hill/White/Moss). All of them are tough physical runners that thrive behind HUGE offensive lines but their lack of speed/quickness limit them in the NFL.

Not suggesting that Ball should be ignored or avoided, but he really needs to impress me in the combine to convince me he is worth a 2nd round pick. If you want a guy with similar skill set that you can probably snag later in the draft look at Le'veon Bell from Michigan State.

Personally, I would use the 2nd round pick on a guard. Try to swing a trade and get a couple of extra 5th round picks and take guys like Le'veon Bell and Ray Graham who reminds me of Ray Rice.