Young Marine Dies Of PTSD - And Neglect

Jetdawgg · 01-31-2007, 02:42 PM

[QUOTE]STEWART, Minn. -- Jonathan Schulze tried to live with the nightmares and grief he brought home after serving as a Marine in Iraq, but it overwhelmed him. And he didn't get the help he needed to survive, his family claims.

Two weeks ago, Schulze told a staff member at the VA hospital in St. Cloud that he was thinking of killing himself and asked to be admitted, according to his father and stepmother, who accompanied him. They said he was told he couldn't be admitted that day. The next day, a counselor told him over the phone that he was No. 26 on the waiting list, his parents said.

Four days later, Schulze committed suicide in his New Prague home. He was 25.

"He was a delayed casualty of the Iraq war," said his father, Jim Schulze.

Veterans Affairs officials, citing privacy laws, wouldn't comment on the case or confirm or deny the Schulze family's account.

However, Dr. Sherrie Herendeen, line director for mental health services at the St. Cloud hospital, said Thursday that under VA policy, a veteran talking about suicide would immediately be escorted into the hospital's locked mental health unit for treatment. She said the hospital is now reviewing its procedures.

Schulze's father and stepmother, Marianne Schulze, who live in rural Stewart, said their son would still be alive if the VA had acted on his pleas for admittance. They said they heard him tell VA staff in St. Cloud that he felt suicidal -- in person on Jan. 11 at the hospital, and over the phone on Jan. 12.

On the evening of Jan. 16, Schulze called family and friends to tell them that he was preparing to kill himself. They called the New Prague police, who smashed in the door and found him hanging from an electrical cord. Police attempted to resuscitate him, but it was too late.

Schulze's family doctor, Dr. William Phillips of Stewart, said he was convinced that Schulze suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder, a disabling mental condition that can result from military combat.

"Jonathan was a classic," said Phillips, who first examined Schulze in October 2004 when Schulze was home on leave from Marine duty. Phillips said Schulze was reliving combat in his sleep, had flashbacks, couldn't eat, felt paranoid, struggled with relationships and admitted to drinking alcohol excessively. Phillips prescribed medication to calm his nerves and help him sleep.

He also asked Schulze to seek counseling at Camp Pendleton, the Marine Corps base in California where he was assigned. Phillips said he was unable to learn whether Schulze had done so.

"We don't have a system for this," Phillips said. "The VA is overwhelmed, and we're rural doctors out here trying to deal with this. Unfortunately, we're going to see a lot of Jonathans."

Maj. Cynthia Rasmussen, the combat stress officer for the 88th Regional Readiness Command at Fort Snelling, said veterans returning to Minnesota who have problems often don't seek help until their civilian lives begin to fall apart. "Soldiers think if they go to get help that they're going to be seen as weak, but they also think their command won't have faith in them," she said.

After Schulze left the Marines in late 2005, he continued to have aching memories of combat. "When he got back from Iraq he was mentally scattered," said his older brother Travis, who also served there with the Marines.

Much of Jonathan Schulze's anguish seemed to relate to combat in Ramadi in April 2004.

Schulze, who carried a machine gun, wrote his parents that 16 Marines, many of them close friends, had died in two afternoons of firefights and bombings. Twice he was wounded but didn't tell his parents, not wanting them to worry. He wrote about dismembered bodies, youth and combat and disillusionment. And about the bombs.

"I pray so much over here and ask God to keep me out of harm's way and to make it back home alive and in one piece," he wrote Jim and Marianne in May 2004. "I bet I easily pray over a dozen times a day and I always pray while I am on patrol as I am terrified of getting hit by an IED aka a bomb. Our vehicle elements and Marines on patrols are getting hit hard by these bombs the Iraqis plant all over and hide on the ground."

Schulze, who had a young daughter, Kaley Marie, carried guilt that fellow Marines died. He wanted to return to Iraq to somehow redeem himself, said his father, who did three tours of duty in Vietnam.

Because of that, Schulze at first resisted counseling, Jim Schulze said. "Being a Marine, he was too proud to get help," he said. "They want to make you impervious of any emotion. And when you get out it's almost impossible to put it back the way it was."[/QUOTE]

I lost two Marine buddy's like this. Funny they did not know each other, but they both blew their heads off. One in Gtmo and the other in Florida..
They never got the counciling that they needed.

Let's send more of them over to Iraq.

One of my buddy's was from the Bronx, an Irish guy. The other was a roomate of mine. The Marine Corps is no joke. Neither one of them served in war.

[url]http://news.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp?a=282622&z=2[/url]

JetsFan2012 · 01-31-2007, 02:47 PM

That's gotta be tough on the family.

Per your comment, what does this have to do with the Iraq War? You just said, based on your experience, you've seen this happen first hand to a guy that never even saw action.

I guess we should just do away with the Marines.

bitonti · 01-31-2007, 02:49 PM

this is a good post

people talk about casualties in terms of the 3000 or so deaths

the real costs are much much much higher

there are tens of thousands with life changing injuries (loss of limb etc)

and there are probably just as many (or more) coming home with PTSD, unable to function in society

all this wouldn't be so horrifying if these men weren't making such a sacrifice for no real reason

JetsFan2012 · 01-31-2007, 03:04 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti]this is a good post

people talk about casualties in terms of the 3000 or so deaths

the real costs are much much much higher

there are tens of thousands with life changing injuries (loss of limb etc)

and there are probably just as many (or more) coming home with PTSD, unable to function in society

all this wouldn't be so horrifying if these men weren't making such a sacrifice for no real reason[/QUOTE]

How do you know that? Dawgg said his buddy killed himself without ever going to war.

The USMC is the problem. Do away with it, as well as all the other armed forces.

NIGHT STALKER · 01-31-2007, 03:05 PM

[QUOTE=Jetdawgg]I lost two Marine buddy's like this. Funny they did not know each other, but they both blew their heads off. One in Gtmo and the other in Florida..
They never got the counciling that they needed.

Let's send more of them over to Iraq.

One of my buddy's was from the Bronx, an Irish guy. The other was a roomate of mine. The Marine Corps is no joke. Neither one of them served in war.

[url]http://news.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp?a=282622&z=2[/url][/QUOTE]

Hey JD, enough of your BS...really. Did you ever spend one day in any military branch of service? Think about what you just posted about two of your so called buddies who supposedly blew their heads off...[B]Neither one of them served in war.[/B]

You are an embarrassment to every vet that has suffered from PTSD (I am one of them)...what the frill did they OD from...too many push ups? Do you even know what PTSD stands for?

I've had enough of your wannabe Marine crap...you may have a lot of people fooled in this forum, but not me...I was asked by another poster (who will remain nameless) to post here to deflect the BS that spews from your computer...I believe I have fulfilled that to anyone that has paid attention to your posts and my replies that go unanswered.

I am done participating in this forum because I will be banned for something I would love to say here...it's not worth it. So, go on with your wannabe Marine BS...you're a slap in the face to anyone that has really served...especially the one's like myself that realize every day is a holiday after facing death numerous times. Go Jets...see the rest of you guys on the football forum.

Jetdawgg · 01-31-2007, 03:07 PM

[QUOTE=pauliec]That's gotta be tough on the family.

Per your comment, what does this have to do with the Iraq War? You just said, based on your experience, you've seen this happen first hand to a guy that never even saw action.

I guess we should just do away with the Marines.[/QUOTE]

The Bronx Marine was in GTMO. The isolation, the drinking, the fighting, the hard work, guard duty alone, the fenceline.....The stress of being a Marine is too much for some people. And there have been times when they wanted to do away with the Marine Corps.

Some people even try to kill themselves in boot camp. Two guys attempted that while I was in boot camp. The Marines is not the Army despite of what some posters want you to think.

The Fla Marine who was my roomate was from the Midwest. Good guy too. We had a lot of fun in that short while. His parents told me that he could not take the stress of being a Marine. He was 20.

I have to laugh when I see some of the posts on this board.

When I posted the other day regarding 73 started out to become Marines and only 40 survived it, it should clue you in on how tough it is. I feel for this Marines parents.

The gov't doesn't care and posters here that don't serve want more of this to occur....

Jetdawgg · 01-31-2007, 03:09 PM

[QUOTE=NIGHT STALKER]Hey JD, enough of your BS...really. Did you ever spend one day in any military branch of service? Think about what you just posted about two of your so called buddies who supposedly blew their heads off...[B]Neither one of them served in war.[/B]

You are an embarrassment to every vet that has suffered from PTSD (I am one of them)...what the frill did they OD from...too many push ups? Do you even know what PTSD stands for?

I've had enough of your wannabe Marine crap...you may have a lot of people fooled in this forum, but not me...I was asked by another poster (who will remain nameless) to post here to deflect the BS that spews from your computer...I believe I have fulfilled that to anyone that has paid attention to your posts and my replies that go unanswered.

I am done participating in this forum because I will be banned for something I would love to say here...it's not worth it. So, go on with your wannabe Marine BS...you're a slap in the face to anyone that has really served...especially the one's like myself that realize every day is a holiday after facing death numerous times. Go Jets...see the rest of you guys on the football forum.[/QUOTE]

I have a life. Do you think that I look for your posts? I got things to do fool.

JetsFan2012 · 01-31-2007, 03:17 PM

[QUOTE=Jetdawgg]The Bronx Marine was in GTMO. The isolation, the drinking, the fighting, the hard work, guard duty alone, the fenceline.....The stress of being a Marine is too much for some people. And there have been times when they wanted to do away with the Marine Corps.

Some people even try to kill themselves in boot camp. Two guys attempted that while I was in boot camp. The Marines is not the Army despite of what some posters want you to think.

The Fla Marine who was my roomate was from the Midwest. Good guy too. We had a lot of fun in that short while. His parents told me that he could not take the stress of being a Marine. He was 20.

I have to laugh when I see some of the posts on this board.

When I posted the other day regarding 73 started out to become Marines and only 40 survived it, it should clue you in on how tough it is. I feel for this Marines parents.

The gov't doesn't care and posters here that don't serve want more of this to occur....[/QUOTE]

Then the first step is to tone down the training in the Marines. That would be the logical response to this issue. We can't have kids killing themselves in boot camp.

bitonti · 01-31-2007, 03:30 PM

[QUOTE=pauliec]Then the first step is to tone down the training in the Marines. That would be the logical response to this issue. We can't have kids killing themselves in boot camp.[/QUOTE]

pauliec it's apparent you are being sarcastic - but cmon bro what are you really trying to say? that the ONLY other option to a failed war is to eliminate the Marine Corp? I mean is this really what it's come down to?

another option is to just admit that the entire pro-war community have painted themselves, the soldiers and this country into a corner.

Jetdawgg · 01-31-2007, 03:34 PM

[QUOTE=pauliec]Then the first step is to tone down the training in the Marines. That would be the logical response to this issue. We can't have kids killing themselves in boot camp.[/QUOTE]

You don't know the characteristics of everyone that enters. I think that they have toned it down. It was 14 weeks when I entered.

I think it is 10 or 11 now. And they are not allowed to hit like back then either.

The Marine Corps wants Marines and they cut guys quickly who can't hack it.
Like I said in a previous posts it is the mental games that really wear you out.

I know they have to do it some kind of way. You are being trained for combat. It's not Kindergarten. Just some folks handle the pressure differently.

I was shocked about both those Marines. The one from the Bronx, I never even heard from his parents. They just sent a letter to the commander in GTMO. He went home on leave and never returnd to Cuba.

The other Marine went home on leave and never returned either.

Right now there are Marines sitting on those ships off the coast of Iran. Just waiting and waiting. Sometimes the waiting can get to you. When I had to go to the Falklands, we were on a Carib Deployment.

The Marines hit the beach. We go in first. We were not equipped to go but it was our duty. We had summer gear and now you are sent into a winter environment. It meant I was packed light :yes:

When my brother returned from the coast of Syria, I knew he was a Man. It was the first time in our lives that I could do nothing to protect him. After all that time in the streets and all.

I was fortunate enough not to be in a meat grinder. When I look back on things, I have all my limbs, an Honorable discharge and most important I am alive. For some, they don't see it like that.

JetsFan2012 · 01-31-2007, 03:37 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti]pauliec it's apparent you are being sarcastic - but cmon bro what are you really trying to say? that the ONLY other option to a failed war is to eliminate the Marine Corp? I mean is this really what it's come down to?

another option is to just admit that the entire pro-war community have painted themselves, the soldiers and this country into a corner.[/QUOTE]

Look, I get what you're saying, but a "successful war" is no different that a "failed" war in terms of violence. Soldiers will still be engaged in crazy firefights, they will still die, they will see their best friends die.

Could you imagine what it must have been like on the beaches of Normandy. Talk about a freakin' slaughter as soon as your boat landed.

The military isn't for everyone. If you are unbalanced enough to try to kill yourself in boot camp, you ain't going to make it as a veteran after experiencing real fighting.

Jetdawgg · 01-31-2007, 03:40 PM

[QUOTE=pauliec]Look, I get what you're saying, but a "successful war" is no different that a "failed" war in terms of violence. Soldiers will still be engaged in crazy firefights, they will still die, they will see their best friends die.

Could you imagine what it must have been like on the beaches of Normandy. Talk about a freakin' slaughter as soon as your boat landed.

The military isn't for everyone. [B]If you are unbalanced enough to try to kill yourself in boot camp, you ain't going to make it as a veteran after experiencing real fighting.[/B][/QUOTE]

Hey I agree with you there. Let's get these vets the help they need....

MnJetFan · 01-31-2007, 04:06 PM

While I feel sorry for this young man and his family, it was a tragedy. There was a waiting list at the VA Hospital pure and simple. To blame Bush for that is just plain STUPID! War is hell nobody ever said it was different!

Warfish · 01-31-2007, 04:26 PM

Waiting List? For Medical Treatment?

Better hope we DON'T go to a "Universal (i.e. Socialist) Health Care System", because waiting lists and extensive waits will become commonplace, not just for needy ex-Soldiers, but for ANYONE who does not choose (and pay for) private care.

Look only to the UK for your proof of that.

MnJetFan · 01-31-2007, 04:33 PM

Not for medical treatment, for psychiatric treatment.

kennyo7 · 01-31-2007, 04:35 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish]Waiting List? For Medical Treatment?

Better hope we DON'T go to a "Universal (i.e. Socialist) Health Care System", because waiting lists and extensive waits will become commonplace, not just for needy ex-Soldiers, but for ANYONE who does not choose (and pay for) private care.

Look only to the UK for your proof of that.[/QUOTE]

Thats right, look at countries with socialized health care systems like the UK, Sweden, Finland, and Germany. People are dropping dead like flies over there. Infant mortality is sky high! Disease is ravaging their populations. :rolleyes:

Warfish · 01-31-2007, 04:47 PM

[QUOTE=kennyo7]Thats right, look at countries with socialized health care systems like the UK, Sweden, Finland, and Germany. People are dropping dead like flies over there. Infant mortality is sky high! Disease is ravaging their populations. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

How many ill family members do you personally have living in the UK Ken?

kennyo7 · 01-31-2007, 04:57 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish]How many ill family members do you personally have living in the UK Ken?[/QUOTE]

Im sure you have hundreds, right???
I actually have most of my family in Greece, which also has a socialized system.

Whats your point?

Take a look at the WHO rankings of health care systems by nation. These rankings were based on measures including Infant Mortality, Infectious disease, cardiovascular deaths, immunization coverage, prenatal care, etc. The nations i mention above all kicked our a$$

Here is the ranking of infant mortality rates:

1. Singapore 2.28 deaths/1,000 live births
2. [B]Sweden[/B] 2.77 deaths/1,000 live births
3. Hong Kong 2.97 deaths/1,000 live births
4. Japan 3.28 deaths/1,000 live births
5. [B]Iceland [/B] 3.31 deaths/1,000 live births
6. [B]Finland[/B] 3.59 deaths/1,000 live births
7. [B]Norway[/B] 3.73 deaths/1,000 live births
8. Malta 3.94 deaths/1,000 live births
9. Czech Republic 3.97 deaths/1,000 live births
10. Andorra 4.05 deaths/1,000 live births
11. [B]Germany[/B] 4.20 deaths/1,000 live births
12. [B]France[/B] 4.31 deaths/1,000 live births
13. Macau 4.39 deaths/1,000 live births
14. [B]Switzerland [/B] 4.43 deaths/1,000 live births
15. [B]Spain[/B] 4.48 deaths/1,000 live births
16. Slovenia 4.50 deaths/1,000 live births
17. Denmark 4.63 deaths/1,000 live births
18. [B]Austria [/B] 4.68 deaths/1,000 live births
19. Australia 4.76 deaths/1,000 live births
Belgium 4.76 deaths/1,000 live births
21. Liechtenstein 4.77 deaths/1,000 live births
22. [B]Canada[/B] 4.82 deaths/1,000 live births
23. Luxembourg 4.88 deaths/1,000 live births
24. Netherlands 5.11 deaths/1,000 live births
25. Portugal 5.13 deaths/1,000 live births
26. [B]United Kingdom[/B] 5.22 deaths/1,000 live births
27. Ireland 5.50 deaths/1,000 live births
28. Monaco 5.53 deaths/1,000 live births
29. [B]Greece[/B] 5.63 deaths/1,000 live births
30. San Marino 5.85 deaths/1,000 live births
31. New Zealand 5.96 deaths/1,000 live births
32. Aruba 6.02 deaths/1,000 live births
33. Italy 6.07 deaths/1,000 live births
34. Cuba 6.45 deaths/1,000 live births
35. Taiwan 6.52 deaths/1,000 live births
36. [B]United States[/B] 6.63 deaths/1,000 live births

Warfish · 01-31-2007, 05:08 PM

[QUOTE=kennyo7]Im sure you have hundreds, right???
I actually have most of my family in Greece, which also has a socialized system.

Whats your point?[/QUOTE]

My Point was rather simple. My Mother, as well as all of my Fathers Side of my Family live in the UK (Ireland, and Scotland), and I am well aware of both the lack of quality, and the excessive wait times involved in the UK Social Medicine System.

You can chart all the massive impersonal (and unrelated) numbers you like Ken. Who here was talking of Infant Mortallity, I know I wasn't. These numbers mean nothing whatsoever in the limited context of which I was speaking. The various factors that could affect those numbers OTHER than the specific healthcare system is so broad and wide, it renders them of little to no use in the specific question of quality and wait times I am referring to.

I get the real scoop from my Blood, who live in that system every day. And I trust them far more than I'll ever trust you.

HDCentStOhio · 01-31-2007, 05:42 PM

[QUOTE=kennyo7]Im sure you have hundreds, right???
I actually have most of my family in Greece, which also has a socialized system.

Whats your point?

Take a look at the WHO rankings of health care systems by nation. These rankings were based on measures including Infant Mortality, Infectious disease, cardiovascular deaths, immunization coverage, prenatal care, etc. The nations i mention above all kicked our a$$

Here is the ranking of infant mortality rates:

1. Singapore 2.28 deaths/1,000 live births
2. [B]Sweden[/B] 2.77 deaths/1,000 live births
3. Hong Kong 2.97 deaths/1,000 live births
4. Japan 3.28 deaths/1,000 live births
5. [B]Iceland [/B] 3.31 deaths/1,000 live births
6. [B]Finland[/B] 3.59 deaths/1,000 live births
7. [B]Norway[/B] 3.73 deaths/1,000 live births
8. Malta 3.94 deaths/1,000 live births
9. Czech Republic 3.97 deaths/1,000 live births
10. Andorra 4.05 deaths/1,000 live births
11. [B]Germany[/B] 4.20 deaths/1,000 live births
12. [B]France[/B] 4.31 deaths/1,000 live births
13. Macau 4.39 deaths/1,000 live births
14. [B]Switzerland [/B] 4.43 deaths/1,000 live births
15. [B]Spain[/B] 4.48 deaths/1,000 live births
16. Slovenia 4.50 deaths/1,000 live births
17. Denmark 4.63 deaths/1,000 live births
18. [B]Austria [/B] 4.68 deaths/1,000 live births
19. Australia 4.76 deaths/1,000 live births
Belgium 4.76 deaths/1,000 live births
21. Liechtenstein 4.77 deaths/1,000 live births
22. [B]Canada[/B] 4.82 deaths/1,000 live births
23. Luxembourg 4.88 deaths/1,000 live births
24. Netherlands 5.11 deaths/1,000 live births
25. Portugal 5.13 deaths/1,000 live births
26. [B]United Kingdom[/B] 5.22 deaths/1,000 live births
27. Ireland 5.50 deaths/1,000 live births
28. Monaco 5.53 deaths/1,000 live births
29. [B]Greece[/B] 5.63 deaths/1,000 live births
30. San Marino 5.85 deaths/1,000 live births
31. New Zealand 5.96 deaths/1,000 live births
32. Aruba 6.02 deaths/1,000 live births
33. Italy 6.07 deaths/1,000 live births
34. Cuba 6.45 deaths/1,000 live births
35. Taiwan 6.52 deaths/1,000 live births
36. [B]United States[/B] 6.63 deaths/1,000 live births[/QUOTE]
You libs conveniently forget about factors like obesity and maternal drug use, which are greater factors in these statistics than government policy. Blame the government, not the individual. Way to go.

01-31-2007, 02:42 PM	#1
Jetdawgg All Pro Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 6,713	Young Marine Dies Of PTSD - And Neglect [QUOTE]STEWART, Minn. -- Jonathan Schulze tried to live with the nightmares and grief he brought home after serving as a Marine in Iraq, but it overwhelmed him. And he didn't get the help he needed to survive, his family claims. Two weeks ago, Schulze told a staff member at the VA hospital in St. Cloud that he was thinking of killing himself and asked to be admitted, according to his father and stepmother, who accompanied him. They said he was told he couldn't be admitted that day. The next day, a counselor told him over the phone that he was No. 26 on the waiting list, his parents said. Four days later, Schulze committed suicide in his New Prague home. He was 25. "He was a delayed casualty of the Iraq war," said his father, Jim Schulze. Veterans Affairs officials, citing privacy laws, wouldn't comment on the case or confirm or deny the Schulze family's account. However, Dr. Sherrie Herendeen, line director for mental health services at the St. Cloud hospital, said Thursday that under VA policy, a veteran talking about suicide would immediately be escorted into the hospital's locked mental health unit for treatment. She said the hospital is now reviewing its procedures. Schulze's father and stepmother, Marianne Schulze, who live in rural Stewart, said their son would still be alive if the VA had acted on his pleas for admittance. They said they heard him tell VA staff in St. Cloud that he felt suicidal -- in person on Jan. 11 at the hospital, and over the phone on Jan. 12. On the evening of Jan. 16, Schulze called family and friends to tell them that he was preparing to kill himself. They called the New Prague police, who smashed in the door and found him hanging from an electrical cord. Police attempted to resuscitate him, but it was too late. Schulze's family doctor, Dr. William Phillips of Stewart, said he was convinced that Schulze suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder, a disabling mental condition that can result from military combat. "Jonathan was a classic," said Phillips, who first examined Schulze in October 2004 when Schulze was home on leave from Marine duty. Phillips said Schulze was reliving combat in his sleep, had flashbacks, couldn't eat, felt paranoid, struggled with relationships and admitted to drinking alcohol excessively. Phillips prescribed medication to calm his nerves and help him sleep. He also asked Schulze to seek counseling at Camp Pendleton, the Marine Corps base in California where he was assigned. Phillips said he was unable to learn whether Schulze had done so. "We don't have a system for this," Phillips said. "The VA is overwhelmed, and we're rural doctors out here trying to deal with this. Unfortunately, we're going to see a lot of Jonathans." Maj. Cynthia Rasmussen, the combat stress officer for the 88th Regional Readiness Command at Fort Snelling, said veterans returning to Minnesota who have problems often don't seek help until their civilian lives begin to fall apart. "Soldiers think if they go to get help that they're going to be seen as weak, but they also think their command won't have faith in them," she said. After Schulze left the Marines in late 2005, he continued to have aching memories of combat. "When he got back from Iraq he was mentally scattered," said his older brother Travis, who also served there with the Marines. Much of Jonathan Schulze's anguish seemed to relate to combat in Ramadi in April 2004. Schulze, who carried a machine gun, wrote his parents that 16 Marines, many of them close friends, had died in two afternoons of firefights and bombings. Twice he was wounded but didn't tell his parents, not wanting them to worry. He wrote about dismembered bodies, youth and combat and disillusionment. And about the bombs. "I pray so much over here and ask God to keep me out of harm's way and to make it back home alive and in one piece," he wrote Jim and Marianne in May 2004. "I bet I easily pray over a dozen times a day and I always pray while I am on patrol as I am terrified of getting hit by an IED aka a bomb. Our vehicle elements and Marines on patrols are getting hit hard by these bombs the Iraqis plant all over and hide on the ground." Schulze, who had a young daughter, Kaley Marie, carried guilt that fellow Marines died. He wanted to return to Iraq to somehow redeem himself, said his father, who did three tours of duty in Vietnam. Because of that, Schulze at first resisted counseling, Jim Schulze said. "Being a Marine, he was too proud to get help," he said. "They want to make you impervious of any emotion. And when you get out it's almost impossible to put it back the way it was."[/QUOTE] I lost two Marine buddy's like this. Funny they did not know each other, but they both blew their heads off. One in Gtmo and the other in Florida.. They never got the counciling that they needed. Let's send more of them over to Iraq. One of my buddy's was from the Bronx, an Irish guy. The other was a roomate of mine. The Marine Corps is no joke. Neither one of them served in war. [url]http://news.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp?a=282622&z=2[/url]

01-31-2007, 02:47 PM	#2
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	That's gotta be tough on the family. Per your comment, what does this have to do with the Iraq War? You just said, based on your experience, you've seen this happen first hand to a guy that never even saw action. I guess we should just do away with the Marines.

01-31-2007, 02:49 PM	#3
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	this is a good post people talk about casualties in terms of the 3000 or so deaths the real costs are much much much higher there are tens of thousands with life changing injuries (loss of limb etc) and there are probably just as many (or more) coming home with PTSD, unable to function in society all this wouldn't be so horrifying if these men weren't making such a sacrifice for no real reason

01-31-2007, 03:04 PM	#4
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	[QUOTE=bitonti]this is a good post people talk about casualties in terms of the 3000 or so deaths the real costs are much much much higher there are tens of thousands with life changing injuries (loss of limb etc) and there are probably just as many (or more) coming home with PTSD, unable to function in society all this wouldn't be so horrifying if these men weren't making such a sacrifice for no real reason[/QUOTE] How do you know that? Dawgg said his buddy killed himself without ever going to war. The USMC is the problem. Do away with it, as well as all the other armed forces.

01-31-2007, 03:05 PM	#5
NIGHT STALKER a bandwagon Jets fan since 1963 All Pro Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,031	[QUOTE=Jetdawgg]I lost two Marine buddy's like this. Funny they did not know each other, but they both blew their heads off. One in Gtmo and the other in Florida.. They never got the counciling that they needed. Let's send more of them over to Iraq. One of my buddy's was from the Bronx, an Irish guy. The other was a roomate of mine. The Marine Corps is no joke. Neither one of them served in war. [url]http://news.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp?a=282622&z=2[/url][/QUOTE] Hey JD, enough of your BS...really. Did you ever spend one day in any military branch of service? Think about what you just posted about two of your so called buddies who supposedly blew their heads off...[B]Neither one of them served in war.[/B] You are an embarrassment to every vet that has suffered from PTSD (I am one of them)...what the frill did they OD from...too many push ups? Do you even know what PTSD stands for? I've had enough of your wannabe Marine crap...you may have a lot of people fooled in this forum, but not me...I was asked by another poster (who will remain nameless) to post here to deflect the BS that spews from your computer...I believe I have fulfilled that to anyone that has paid attention to your posts and my replies that go unanswered. I am done participating in this forum because I will be banned for something I would love to say here...it's not worth it. So, go on with your wannabe Marine BS...you're a slap in the face to anyone that has really served...especially the one's like myself that realize every day is a holiday after facing death numerous times. Go Jets...see the rest of you guys on the football forum.

01-31-2007, 03:07 PM	#6
Jetdawgg All Pro Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 6,713	[QUOTE=pauliec]That's gotta be tough on the family. Per your comment, what does this have to do with the Iraq War? You just said, based on your experience, you've seen this happen first hand to a guy that never even saw action. I guess we should just do away with the Marines.[/QUOTE] The Bronx Marine was in GTMO. The isolation, the drinking, the fighting, the hard work, guard duty alone, the fenceline.....The stress of being a Marine is too much for some people. And there have been times when they wanted to do away with the Marine Corps. Some people even try to kill themselves in boot camp. Two guys attempted that while I was in boot camp. The Marines is not the Army despite of what some posters want you to think. The Fla Marine who was my roomate was from the Midwest. Good guy too. We had a lot of fun in that short while. His parents told me that he could not take the stress of being a Marine. He was 20. I have to laugh when I see some of the posts on this board. When I posted the other day regarding 73 started out to become Marines and only 40 survived it, it should clue you in on how tough it is. I feel for this Marines parents. The gov't doesn't care and posters here that don't serve want more of this to occur....

01-31-2007, 03:09 PM	#7
Jetdawgg All Pro Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 6,713	[QUOTE=NIGHT STALKER]Hey JD, enough of your BS...really. Did you ever spend one day in any military branch of service? Think about what you just posted about two of your so called buddies who supposedly blew their heads off...[B]Neither one of them served in war.[/B] You are an embarrassment to every vet that has suffered from PTSD (I am one of them)...what the frill did they OD from...too many push ups? Do you even know what PTSD stands for? I've had enough of your wannabe Marine crap...you may have a lot of people fooled in this forum, but not me...I was asked by another poster (who will remain nameless) to post here to deflect the BS that spews from your computer...I believe I have fulfilled that to anyone that has paid attention to your posts and my replies that go unanswered. I am done participating in this forum because I will be banned for something I would love to say here...it's not worth it. So, go on with your wannabe Marine BS...you're a slap in the face to anyone that has really served...especially the one's like myself that realize every day is a holiday after facing death numerous times. Go Jets...see the rest of you guys on the football forum.[/QUOTE] I have a life. Do you think that I look for your posts? I got things to do fool.

01-31-2007, 03:17 PM	#8
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	[QUOTE=Jetdawgg]The Bronx Marine was in GTMO. The isolation, the drinking, the fighting, the hard work, guard duty alone, the fenceline.....The stress of being a Marine is too much for some people. And there have been times when they wanted to do away with the Marine Corps. Some people even try to kill themselves in boot camp. Two guys attempted that while I was in boot camp. The Marines is not the Army despite of what some posters want you to think. The Fla Marine who was my roomate was from the Midwest. Good guy too. We had a lot of fun in that short while. His parents told me that he could not take the stress of being a Marine. He was 20. I have to laugh when I see some of the posts on this board. When I posted the other day regarding 73 started out to become Marines and only 40 survived it, it should clue you in on how tough it is. I feel for this Marines parents. The gov't doesn't care and posters here that don't serve want more of this to occur....[/QUOTE] Then the first step is to tone down the training in the Marines. That would be the logical response to this issue. We can't have kids killing themselves in boot camp.

01-31-2007, 03:30 PM	#9
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=pauliec]Then the first step is to tone down the training in the Marines. That would be the logical response to this issue. We can't have kids killing themselves in boot camp.[/QUOTE] pauliec it's apparent you are being sarcastic - but cmon bro what are you really trying to say? that the ONLY other option to a failed war is to eliminate the Marine Corp? I mean is this really what it's come down to? another option is to just admit that the entire pro-war community have painted themselves, the soldiers and this country into a corner.

01-31-2007, 03:34 PM	#10
Jetdawgg All Pro Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 6,713	[QUOTE=pauliec]Then the first step is to tone down the training in the Marines. That would be the logical response to this issue. We can't have kids killing themselves in boot camp.[/QUOTE] You don't know the characteristics of everyone that enters. I think that they have toned it down. It was 14 weeks when I entered. I think it is 10 or 11 now. And they are not allowed to hit like back then either. The Marine Corps wants Marines and they cut guys quickly who can't hack it. Like I said in a previous posts it is the mental games that really wear you out. I know they have to do it some kind of way. You are being trained for combat. It's not Kindergarten. Just some folks handle the pressure differently. I was shocked about both those Marines. The one from the Bronx, I never even heard from his parents. They just sent a letter to the commander in GTMO. He went home on leave and never returnd to Cuba. The other Marine went home on leave and never returned either. Right now there are Marines sitting on those ships off the coast of Iran. Just waiting and waiting. Sometimes the waiting can get to you. When I had to go to the Falklands, we were on a Carib Deployment. The Marines hit the beach. We go in first. We were not equipped to go but it was our duty. We had summer gear and now you are sent into a winter environment. It meant I was packed light :yes: When my brother returned from the coast of Syria, I knew he was a Man. It was the first time in our lives that I could do nothing to protect him. After all that time in the streets and all. I was fortunate enough not to be in a meat grinder. When I look back on things, I have all my limbs, an Honorable discharge and most important I am alive. For some, they don't see it like that.

01-31-2007, 03:37 PM	#11
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	[QUOTE=bitonti]pauliec it's apparent you are being sarcastic - but cmon bro what are you really trying to say? that the ONLY other option to a failed war is to eliminate the Marine Corp? I mean is this really what it's come down to? another option is to just admit that the entire pro-war community have painted themselves, the soldiers and this country into a corner.[/QUOTE] Look, I get what you're saying, but a "successful war" is no different that a "failed" war in terms of violence. Soldiers will still be engaged in crazy firefights, they will still die, they will see their best friends die. Could you imagine what it must have been like on the beaches of Normandy. Talk about a freakin' slaughter as soon as your boat landed. The military isn't for everyone. If you are unbalanced enough to try to kill yourself in boot camp, you ain't going to make it as a veteran after experiencing real fighting.

01-31-2007, 03:40 PM	#12
Jetdawgg All Pro Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 6,713	[QUOTE=pauliec]Look, I get what you're saying, but a "successful war" is no different that a "failed" war in terms of violence. Soldiers will still be engaged in crazy firefights, they will still die, they will see their best friends die. Could you imagine what it must have been like on the beaches of Normandy. Talk about a freakin' slaughter as soon as your boat landed. The military isn't for everyone. [B]If you are unbalanced enough to try to kill yourself in boot camp, you ain't going to make it as a veteran after experiencing real fighting.[/B][/QUOTE] Hey I agree with you there. Let's get these vets the help they need....

01-31-2007, 04:06 PM	#13
MnJetFan All League Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,309	While I feel sorry for this young man and his family, it was a tragedy. There was a waiting list at the VA Hospital pure and simple. To blame Bush for that is just plain STUPID! War is hell nobody ever said it was different!

01-31-2007, 04:26 PM	#14
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	Waiting List? For Medical Treatment? Better hope we DON'T go to a "Universal (i.e. Socialist) Health Care System", because waiting lists and extensive waits will become commonplace, not just for needy ex-Soldiers, but for ANYONE who does not choose (and pay for) private care. Look only to the UK for your proof of that.

01-31-2007, 04:33 PM	#15
MnJetFan All League Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,309	Not for medical treatment, for psychiatric treatment.

01-31-2007, 04:35 PM	#16
kennyo7 All Pro Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 7,417	[QUOTE=Warfish]Waiting List? For Medical Treatment? Better hope we DON'T go to a "Universal (i.e. Socialist) Health Care System", because waiting lists and extensive waits will become commonplace, not just for needy ex-Soldiers, but for ANYONE who does not choose (and pay for) private care. Look only to the UK for your proof of that.[/QUOTE] Thats right, look at countries with socialized health care systems like the UK, Sweden, Finland, and Germany. People are dropping dead like flies over there. Infant mortality is sky high! Disease is ravaging their populations. :rolleyes:

01-31-2007, 04:47 PM	#17
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=kennyo7]Thats right, look at countries with socialized health care systems like the UK, Sweden, Finland, and Germany. People are dropping dead like flies over there. Infant mortality is sky high! Disease is ravaging their populations. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] How many ill family members do you personally have living in the UK Ken?

01-31-2007, 04:57 PM	#18
kennyo7 All Pro Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 7,417	[QUOTE=Warfish]How many ill family members do you personally have living in the UK Ken?[/QUOTE] Im sure you have hundreds, right??? I actually have most of my family in Greece, which also has a socialized system. Whats your point? Take a look at the WHO rankings of health care systems by nation. These rankings were based on measures including Infant Mortality, Infectious disease, cardiovascular deaths, immunization coverage, prenatal care, etc. The nations i mention above all kicked our a$$ Here is the ranking of infant mortality rates: 1. Singapore 2.28 deaths/1,000 live births 2. [B]Sweden[/B] 2.77 deaths/1,000 live births 3. Hong Kong 2.97 deaths/1,000 live births 4. Japan 3.28 deaths/1,000 live births 5. [B]Iceland [/B] 3.31 deaths/1,000 live births 6. [B]Finland[/B] 3.59 deaths/1,000 live births 7. [B]Norway[/B] 3.73 deaths/1,000 live births 8. Malta 3.94 deaths/1,000 live births 9. Czech Republic 3.97 deaths/1,000 live births 10. Andorra 4.05 deaths/1,000 live births 11. [B]Germany[/B] 4.20 deaths/1,000 live births 12. [B]France[/B] 4.31 deaths/1,000 live births 13. Macau 4.39 deaths/1,000 live births 14. [B]Switzerland [/B] 4.43 deaths/1,000 live births 15. [B]Spain[/B] 4.48 deaths/1,000 live births 16. Slovenia 4.50 deaths/1,000 live births 17. Denmark 4.63 deaths/1,000 live births 18. [B]Austria [/B] 4.68 deaths/1,000 live births 19. Australia 4.76 deaths/1,000 live births Belgium 4.76 deaths/1,000 live births 21. Liechtenstein 4.77 deaths/1,000 live births 22. [B]Canada[/B] 4.82 deaths/1,000 live births 23. Luxembourg 4.88 deaths/1,000 live births 24. Netherlands 5.11 deaths/1,000 live births 25. Portugal 5.13 deaths/1,000 live births 26. [B]United Kingdom[/B] 5.22 deaths/1,000 live births 27. Ireland 5.50 deaths/1,000 live births 28. Monaco 5.53 deaths/1,000 live births 29. [B]Greece[/B] 5.63 deaths/1,000 live births 30. San Marino 5.85 deaths/1,000 live births 31. New Zealand 5.96 deaths/1,000 live births 32. Aruba 6.02 deaths/1,000 live births 33. Italy 6.07 deaths/1,000 live births 34. Cuba 6.45 deaths/1,000 live births 35. Taiwan 6.52 deaths/1,000 live births 36. [B]United States[/B] 6.63 deaths/1,000 live births

01-31-2007, 05:08 PM	#19
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=kennyo7]Im sure you have hundreds, right??? I actually have most of my family in Greece, which also has a socialized system. Whats your point?[/QUOTE] My Point was rather simple. My Mother, as well as all of my Fathers Side of my Family live in the UK (Ireland, and Scotland), and I am well aware of both the lack of quality, and the excessive wait times involved in the UK Social Medicine System. You can chart all the massive impersonal (and unrelated) numbers you like Ken. Who here was talking of Infant Mortallity, I know I wasn't. These numbers mean nothing whatsoever in the limited context of which I was speaking. The various factors that could affect those numbers OTHER than the specific healthcare system is so broad and wide, it renders them of little to no use in the specific question of quality and wait times I am referring to. I get the real scoop from my Blood, who live in that system every day. And I trust them far more than I'll ever trust you.

01-31-2007, 05:42 PM	#20
HDCentStOhio longing for the days of Ronald Reagan Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Long Island & Section 337 Posts: 4,859	[QUOTE=kennyo7]Im sure you have hundreds, right??? I actually have most of my family in Greece, which also has a socialized system. Whats your point? Take a look at the WHO rankings of health care systems by nation. These rankings were based on measures including Infant Mortality, Infectious disease, cardiovascular deaths, immunization coverage, prenatal care, etc. The nations i mention above all kicked our a$$ Here is the ranking of infant mortality rates: 1. Singapore 2.28 deaths/1,000 live births 2. [B]Sweden[/B] 2.77 deaths/1,000 live births 3. Hong Kong 2.97 deaths/1,000 live births 4. Japan 3.28 deaths/1,000 live births 5. [B]Iceland [/B] 3.31 deaths/1,000 live births 6. [B]Finland[/B] 3.59 deaths/1,000 live births 7. [B]Norway[/B] 3.73 deaths/1,000 live births 8. Malta 3.94 deaths/1,000 live births 9. Czech Republic 3.97 deaths/1,000 live births 10. Andorra 4.05 deaths/1,000 live births 11. [B]Germany[/B] 4.20 deaths/1,000 live births 12. [B]France[/B] 4.31 deaths/1,000 live births 13. Macau 4.39 deaths/1,000 live births 14. [B]Switzerland [/B] 4.43 deaths/1,000 live births 15. [B]Spain[/B] 4.48 deaths/1,000 live births 16. Slovenia 4.50 deaths/1,000 live births 17. Denmark 4.63 deaths/1,000 live births 18. [B]Austria [/B] 4.68 deaths/1,000 live births 19. Australia 4.76 deaths/1,000 live births Belgium 4.76 deaths/1,000 live births 21. Liechtenstein 4.77 deaths/1,000 live births 22. [B]Canada[/B] 4.82 deaths/1,000 live births 23. Luxembourg 4.88 deaths/1,000 live births 24. Netherlands 5.11 deaths/1,000 live births 25. Portugal 5.13 deaths/1,000 live births 26. [B]United Kingdom[/B] 5.22 deaths/1,000 live births 27. Ireland 5.50 deaths/1,000 live births 28. Monaco 5.53 deaths/1,000 live births 29. [B]Greece[/B] 5.63 deaths/1,000 live births 30. San Marino 5.85 deaths/1,000 live births 31. New Zealand 5.96 deaths/1,000 live births 32. Aruba 6.02 deaths/1,000 live births 33. Italy 6.07 deaths/1,000 live births 34. Cuba 6.45 deaths/1,000 live births 35. Taiwan 6.52 deaths/1,000 live births 36. [B]United States[/B] 6.63 deaths/1,000 live births[/QUOTE] You libs conveniently forget about factors like obesity and maternal drug use, which are greater factors in these statistics than government policy. Blame the government, not the individual. Way to go.