JI's Political Forum Political Platform

JetFanTransplant · 05-15-2007, 10:52 AM

I was wondering if the our beloved political forum would be able to come to an agreed upon platform... as if we were generating the platform for a third party.

The exercise would require everyone to think outside of the restraints of your own political allegiance and compromise on the issues.

If anyone is interested, we would need input from both the left and the right and see how we can come to the middle a bit on the issues to agree upon a position.

Myself or someone else could "proctor" a thread on each issue, I would suggest one at a time. After a week of debate and compromise, we could come to a vote as to our political position. By the time we get through the issues, we could generate a platform statement encompassing the spectrum.

I dunno, I think it could be fun to see if we could all compromise well enough to accomplish this exercise.

If you are interested in trying, respond to this thread.

parafly · 05-15-2007, 10:59 AM

I like this idea, but realistically I don't see it working. The spectrum of ideologies on this forum is simply too wide, and it would be difficult to come to a concensus on almost every individual topic.

However, I am more than willing to give it a try.

JetsFan2012 · 05-15-2007, 11:39 AM

I think it would be a lot of fun, to debate and vote through the issues like a bunch of Congressman.

The draft forum has their fantasy drafts, it's about time we do some cool stuff.

Trades · 05-15-2007, 11:52 AM

Why not list all of the issues that are currently on the minds of the people throwing thier hat into the presidential ring for starters and make a schedule so that people can be prepared with sources and thoughts ahead of time to make it more interesting. Otherwise I can see it becoming a rant like most threads here do. Is there any way to proctor this to keep the childishness out?

Warfish · 05-15-2007, 11:57 AM

A very interesting, and potentially fun, idea.

But I think we have far too many "by-the-numbers" partisans (both right and left) for it to work. Worse, we have too many folks for whom rudeness and insult is their primary mode of debate. For such an idea to work, a Mod would have been be actively involved to curb inapprorpiate and unproductive comments/insults.

JetFanTransplant · 05-15-2007, 12:03 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish]A very interesting, and potentially fun, idea.

But I think we have far too many "by-the-numbers" partisans (both right and left) for it to work. Worse, we have too many folks for whom rudeness and insult is their primary mode of debate. For such an idea to work, a Mod would have been be actively involved to curb inapprorpiate and unproductive comments/insults.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Maybe we can convice sooth to grant you mod status for this experiment.

I think we may be able to suprise ourselves though...

quantum · 05-15-2007, 03:28 PM

sounds interesting...

Sourceworx · 05-15-2007, 03:32 PM

Sure why not?

Make a list of the major political topics and we can debate them. To name a few:

Taxes
Social Security
Welfare
Jobs
Education
Foreign Policy

JetsCrazey · 05-15-2007, 05:04 PM

Well let's start with defining the current policies of BOTH the democratic and republican parties that people are starting to get tired of:

1) Both advocate entitlement programs that constitute 70% of the federal budget, meaning the Congress doesn't even vote on 70% of the money it spends. This is the product ofthe welfare-warfare state which both parties embrace. Congress runs a deficit as a result and must print more money and inflate the currency to make up the difference, eroding the purchasing power of our dollars, benefitting Wall Street by providing endless liquidity, but hurting the majority of lower and middle class Americans.

2) Both advocate an interventionist foreign policy, especially a "war on terror" against an undefinable enemy that will result in endless spending. The only way to truly avoid terrorism is to not provoke it, aka stop meddling in the affairs of Middle Eastern countries.

3) Both advocate a central bank and a concurrent income tax to make interest payments to lenders, a plank of the communist manifesto which wasn't needed less than 100 years ago in this country. Congress is allowed by the Constitution to issue its own money, but it doesn't even though it has in the past, and this is why we pay an income tax today.

4) Both advocate "big-government" policies which increase our debt and erode our civil liberties. Most of these issues such as abortion, gay rights, and the "war on drugs" should be state issues, minimizing the power and expenses of the Federal Government.

isired · 05-15-2007, 05:13 PM

[QUOTE=sourceworx]Sure why not?

Make a list of the major political topics and we can debate them. To name a few:

Taxes
Social Security
Welfare
Jobs
Education
Foreign Policy[/QUOTE]Homeland Defense
IRAQ / Middle East (I know it could come under other topics, but clearly deserves its own)
Healthcare
Abortion
Alternative Energy
Environment
Economic Policy (Domestic / Import/Export / Foreign)

05-15-2007, 05:56 PM

[QUOTE=JetsCrazey]Well let's start with defining the current policies of BOTH the democratic and republican parties that people are starting to get tired of:

1) Both advocate entitlement programs that constitute 70% of the federal budget, meaning the Congress doesn't even vote on 70% of the money it spends. This is the product ofthe welfare-warfare state which both parties embrace. Congress runs a deficit as a result and must print more money and inflate the currency to make up the difference, eroding the purchasing power of our dollars, benefitting Wall Street by providing endless liquidity, but hurting the majority of lower and middle class Americans.

2) Both advocate an interventionist foreign policy, especially a "war on terror" against an undefinable enemy that will result in endless spending. The only way to truly avoid terrorism is to not provoke it, aka stop meddling in the affairs of Middle Eastern countries.

3) Both advocate a central bank and a concurrent income tax to make interest payments to lenders, a plank of the communist manifesto which wasn't needed less than 100 years ago in this country. Congress is allowed by the Constitution to issue its own money, but it doesn't even though it ehas in the past, and this is why we pay an income tax today.

4) Both advocate "big-government" policies which increase our debt and erode our civil liberties. Most of these issues such as abortion, gay rights, and the "war on drugs" should be state issues, minimizing the power and expenses of the Federal Government.[/QUOTE]

complete and utter pap from the other Paulists
what rocks did these folks slither out from

we have the biggest and best economy, not pegged to the vagueries of shiny metals or dependent on protectionism,
speaking of which the DJIA has outperformed gold and other baubles quite considerably by some magnitude over the decades.

oh the enemy is defined alright-radical fundamental islam and all their commie sympathasizers/fellow travelers. when these "moderate" people come over
here and blow up stuff, try to get around/alter our ways and laws id call that meddling in [u]our[/u] affairs. if they are so righteous let them stay & live their
lives righteously in their countries and improve their lot first
(where they can defeminize women, mutilate their genitals, rape, honor kill, chop heads, cut throats, stone, polygamize, persecute infidels to their heart's content, not to mention refuse to give blind people with seeing eye dogs taxi rides) instead of trying to change europe, america etc.

and no, because of the full faith and credit clause in the constitution one state has to honor another's sociopathy-for some things that may suffice
(infanticide) , but no thank you to sanctioning all perverse and self-hating
ways (benefits/ids/licenses for illegal aliens, gay marriages)

JetsCrazey · 05-15-2007, 05:59 PM

All this prosperity is on borrowed money that will have to be paid by those who are graduating from high school and college today. Not to mention social security. People seem to think that these problems will reform themselves without changes in policy. All we're doing is screwing future generations with promises that we can't make. Also this inflationary policy hurts us a lot over the long term.

As younger person I am simply watching out for myself. I suggest you do the same, if not for you then for your kids and kill the welfare-warfare state while you still can.

05-15-2007, 06:41 PM

[QUOTE=JetsCrazey]All this prosperity is on borrowed money that will have to be paid by those who are graduating from high school and college today. Not to mention social security. People seem to think that these problems will reform themselves without changes in policy. All we're doing is screwing future generations with promises that we can't make. Also this inflationary policy hurts us a lot over the long term.

As younger person I am simply watching out for myself. I suggest you do the same, if not for you then for your kids and kill the welfare-warfare state while you still can.[/QUOTE]

this rationale, although sounding reasonable on first blush, is quite faulty.
it concentrates on liabilities, which are difficult to measure, while ignoring this countries' vast assets

its comparable to saying that a man with a home and land,
that has value, but also has a mortgage is a pauper

it also ignores other concepts like the time value of money, inheritance, and the like

yes ss is a ponzi scheme, but I know what I paid into it
-no one knows what I could have done with it if I wasnt coerced into
paying it.if even a portion was privatized, at our option, we could be better off but some people dont like to see anyone ever making a profit from anything so its a third rail

when I was a kid democratic congresses made huge, huge deficits
for the war on poverty, great society, etc and
no one was seemingly concerned about my future or taking from me

democrats raised tax rates as if there was an endless need for, and supply of
compliant suckers with the irs as the sheriff

yet somehow we corrected, and survived....by our standard of living we're far better off than decades past,
(too bad you missed those wacky carter disco ball years)
with low inflation. what inflationary aspect you talking about,
nothing is more inflationary than govt mandated colas for
handouts outpacing the real rate of inflation

if you are young, you are lucky in that you have some tax shelters
in which to place some savings (401K, IRA etc) that were
not commonly available a quarter of a century ago.
work towards investing in these, savings, and in real estate
and you wont have to worry about living on crumbs later

government spending waste should be assailed, and rightly so,
but you cant please everyone. me, i feel every dime spent
on our military to keep it #1 is tax money better spent than any
entitlement handed out to illegal aliens and other sociopaths and deadbeats
yet some bleeding heart will be convinced of the opposite

JetsCrazey · 05-15-2007, 07:37 PM

I know it worked out when you were a kid but now there's this pesky little issue of 1)The dollar not being convertible to gold since 1973, look at the national debt graph since (even as a % of GDP) and 2)the Euro which is stronger than the dollar and is quickly becoming preferred for international transactions, making the dollar no longer the world's sole reserve currency.

The result of this arrangement is foreign central banks diversifying their reserves dumping US bonds on the open markets, not to mention oil-exporting countries trading in euros instead of dollars, creating an excess supply of them, lowering their prices, meaning we'll have to pay higher interest rates for money, furthering inflation which the Fed is already worried about. M3, which the Fed stopped reporting, is growing at an astounding 10% a year. Hello stagflation.

Once again, let's not screw our future generations.

Sourceworx · 05-15-2007, 08:29 PM

[QUOTE=isired]Homeland Defense
IRAQ / Middle East (I know it could come under other topics, but clearly deserves its own)
Healthcare
Abortion
Alternative Energy
Environment
Economic Policy (Domestic / Import/Export / Foreign)[/QUOTE]

How about Campaign Finance Reform to eliminate or at least curb corruption?

MnJetFan · 05-16-2007, 11:02 AM

It sounds great to me. There are so many issues in this country of ours. Taxes, homeland defense, education. Bill of Rights.

Sourceworx · 05-16-2007, 11:04 AM

[QUOTE=MnJetFan]It sounds great to me. There are so many issues in this country of ours. Taxes, homeland defense, education. Bill of Rights.[/QUOTE]

It is a great idea, but I am a bit skeptical. We have some people here who tow the company line for both parties. Neither can do no wrong.

Buster · 05-16-2007, 11:52 AM

[QUOTE=Warfish]A very interesting, and potentially fun, idea.

But I think we have far too many "by-the-numbers" partisans (both right and left) for it to work. Worse, we have too many folks for whom rudeness and insult is their primary mode of debate. For such an idea to work, a Mod would have been be actively involved to curb inapprorpiate and unproductive comments/insults.[/QUOTE]

yep

MnJetFan · 05-16-2007, 12:24 PM

[QUOTE=sourceworx]It is a great idea, but I am a bit skeptical. We have some people here who tow the company line for both parties. Neither can do no wrong.[/QUOTE]

I try my best to vote for the best candidate available. Unfortunately the candidates from the Republicans and Democrats leave allot to be desired.

05-15-2007, 05:04 PM	#9
JetsCrazey All League Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,664	Well let's start with defining the current policies of BOTH the democratic and republican parties that people are starting to get tired of: 1) Both advocate entitlement programs that constitute 70% of the federal budget, meaning the Congress doesn't even vote on 70% of the money it spends. This is the product ofthe welfare-warfare state which both parties embrace. Congress runs a deficit as a result and must print more money and inflate the currency to make up the difference, eroding the purchasing power of our dollars, benefitting Wall Street by providing endless liquidity, but hurting the majority of lower and middle class Americans. 2) Both advocate an interventionist foreign policy, especially a "war on terror" against an undefinable enemy that will result in endless spending. The only way to truly avoid terrorism is to not provoke it, aka stop meddling in the affairs of Middle Eastern countries. 3) Both advocate a central bank and a concurrent income tax to make interest payments to lenders, a plank of the communist manifesto which wasn't needed less than 100 years ago in this country. Congress is allowed by the Constitution to issue its own money, but it doesn't even though it has in the past, and this is why we pay an income tax today. 4) Both advocate "big-government" policies which increase our debt and erode our civil liberties. Most of these issues such as abortion, gay rights, and the "war on drugs" should be state issues, minimizing the power and expenses of the Federal Government. Last edited by JetsCrazey; 05-15-2007 at 05:07 PM.

05-15-2007, 05:59 PM	#12
JetsCrazey All League Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,664	All this prosperity is on borrowed money that will have to be paid by those who are graduating from high school and college today. Not to mention social security. People seem to think that these problems will reform themselves without changes in policy. All we're doing is screwing future generations with promises that we can't make. Also this inflationary policy hurts us a lot over the long term. As younger person I am simply watching out for myself. I suggest you do the same, if not for you then for your kids and kill the welfare-warfare state while you still can. Last edited by JetsCrazey; 05-15-2007 at 06:02 PM.

05-15-2007, 07:37 PM	#14
JetsCrazey All League Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,664	I know it worked out when you were a kid but now there's this pesky little issue of 1)The dollar not being convertible to gold since 1973, look at the national debt graph since (even as a % of GDP) and 2)the Euro which is stronger than the dollar and is quickly becoming preferred for international transactions, making the dollar no longer the world's sole reserve currency. The result of this arrangement is foreign central banks diversifying their reserves dumping US bonds on the open markets, not to mention oil-exporting countries trading in euros instead of dollars, creating an excess supply of them, lowering their prices, meaning we'll have to pay higher interest rates for money, furthering inflation which the Fed is already worried about. M3, which the Fed stopped reporting, is growing at an astounding 10% a year. Hello stagflation. Once again, let's not screw our future generations. Last edited by JetsCrazey; 05-15-2007 at 07:44 PM.

05-15-2007, 10:52 AM	#1
JetFanTransplant Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: On some beach... somewhere... Posts: 3,735	JI's Political Forum Political Platform I was wondering if the our beloved political forum would be able to come to an agreed upon platform... as if we were generating the platform for a third party. The exercise would require everyone to think outside of the restraints of your own political allegiance and compromise on the issues. If anyone is interested, we would need input from both the left and the right and see how we can come to the middle a bit on the issues to agree upon a position. Myself or someone else could "proctor" a thread on each issue, I would suggest one at a time. After a week of debate and compromise, we could come to a vote as to our political position. By the time we get through the issues, we could generate a platform statement encompassing the spectrum. I dunno, I think it could be fun to see if we could all compromise well enough to accomplish this exercise. If you are interested in trying, respond to this thread.

05-15-2007, 10:59 AM	#2
parafly so why side with anything? All Pro Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,288	I like this idea, but realistically I don't see it working. The spectrum of ideologies on this forum is simply too wide, and it would be difficult to come to a concensus on almost every individual topic. However, I am more than willing to give it a try.

05-15-2007, 11:39 AM	#3
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	I think it would be a lot of fun, to debate and vote through the issues like a bunch of Congressman. The draft forum has their fantasy drafts, it's about time we do some cool stuff.

05-15-2007, 11:52 AM	#4
Trades Jets Insider VIP Join Date: May 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,556	Why not list all of the issues that are currently on the minds of the people throwing thier hat into the presidential ring for starters and make a schedule so that people can be prepared with sources and thoughts ahead of time to make it more interesting. Otherwise I can see it becoming a rant like most threads here do. Is there any way to proctor this to keep the childishness out?

05-15-2007, 11:57 AM	#5
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	A very interesting, and potentially fun, idea. But I think we have far too many "by-the-numbers" partisans (both right and left) for it to work. Worse, we have too many folks for whom rudeness and insult is their primary mode of debate. For such an idea to work, a Mod would have been be actively involved to curb inapprorpiate and unproductive comments/insults.

05-15-2007, 12:03 PM	#6
JetFanTransplant Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: On some beach... somewhere... Posts: 3,735	[QUOTE=Warfish]A very interesting, and potentially fun, idea. But I think we have far too many "by-the-numbers" partisans (both right and left) for it to work. Worse, we have too many folks for whom rudeness and insult is their primary mode of debate. For such an idea to work, a Mod would have been be actively involved to curb inapprorpiate and unproductive comments/insults.[/QUOTE] Agreed. Maybe we can convice sooth to grant you mod status for this experiment. I think we may be able to suprise ourselves though...

05-15-2007, 03:28 PM	#7
quantum GFY Snatchez! Hall Of Fame Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: LI Posts: 17,892	sounds interesting...

05-15-2007, 03:32 PM	#8
Sourceworx Hall Of Fame Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Island Posts: 13,412	Sure why not? Make a list of the major political topics and we can debate them. To name a few: Taxes Social Security Welfare Jobs Education Foreign Policy

05-15-2007, 05:13 PM	#10
isired Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: nyc Posts: 11,155	[QUOTE=sourceworx]Sure why not? Make a list of the major political topics and we can debate them. To name a few: Taxes Social Security Welfare Jobs Education Foreign Policy[/QUOTE]Homeland Defense IRAQ / Middle East (I know it could come under other topics, but clearly deserves its own) Healthcare Abortion Alternative Energy Environment Economic Policy (Domestic / Import/Export / Foreign)

05-15-2007, 05:56 PM	#11
flushingjet Edit Status Guest Posts: n/a	[QUOTE=JetsCrazey]Well let's start with defining the current policies of BOTH the democratic and republican parties that people are starting to get tired of: 1) Both advocate entitlement programs that constitute 70% of the federal budget, meaning the Congress doesn't even vote on 70% of the money it spends. This is the product ofthe welfare-warfare state which both parties embrace. Congress runs a deficit as a result and must print more money and inflate the currency to make up the difference, eroding the purchasing power of our dollars, benefitting Wall Street by providing endless liquidity, but hurting the majority of lower and middle class Americans. 2) Both advocate an interventionist foreign policy, especially a "war on terror" against an undefinable enemy that will result in endless spending. The only way to truly avoid terrorism is to not provoke it, aka stop meddling in the affairs of Middle Eastern countries. 3) Both advocate a central bank and a concurrent income tax to make interest payments to lenders, a plank of the communist manifesto which wasn't needed less than 100 years ago in this country. Congress is allowed by the Constitution to issue its own money, but it doesn't even though it ehas in the past, and this is why we pay an income tax today. 4) Both advocate "big-government" policies which increase our debt and erode our civil liberties. Most of these issues such as abortion, gay rights, and the "war on drugs" should be state issues, minimizing the power and expenses of the Federal Government.[/QUOTE] complete and utter pap from the other Paulists what rocks did these folks slither out from we have the biggest and best economy, not pegged to the vagueries of shiny metals or dependent on protectionism, speaking of which the DJIA has outperformed gold and other baubles quite considerably by some magnitude over the decades. oh the enemy is defined alright-radical fundamental islam and all their commie sympathasizers/fellow travelers. when these "moderate" people come over here and blow up stuff, try to get around/alter our ways and laws id call that meddling in [u]our[/u] affairs. if they are so righteous let them stay & live their lives righteously in their countries and improve their lot first (where they can defeminize women, mutilate their genitals, rape, honor kill, chop heads, cut throats, stone, polygamize, persecute infidels to their heart's content, not to mention refuse to give blind people with seeing eye dogs taxi rides) instead of trying to change europe, america etc. and no, because of the full faith and credit clause in the constitution one state has to honor another's sociopathy-for some things that may suffice (infanticide) , but no thank you to sanctioning all perverse and self-hating ways (benefits/ids/licenses for illegal aliens, gay marriages)

05-15-2007, 06:41 PM	#13
flushingjet Edit Status Guest Posts: n/a	[QUOTE=JetsCrazey]All this prosperity is on borrowed money that will have to be paid by those who are graduating from high school and college today. Not to mention social security. People seem to think that these problems will reform themselves without changes in policy. All we're doing is screwing future generations with promises that we can't make. Also this inflationary policy hurts us a lot over the long term. As younger person I am simply watching out for myself. I suggest you do the same, if not for you then for your kids and kill the welfare-warfare state while you still can.[/QUOTE] this rationale, although sounding reasonable on first blush, is quite faulty. it concentrates on liabilities, which are difficult to measure, while ignoring this countries' vast assets its comparable to saying that a man with a home and land, that has value, but also has a mortgage is a pauper it also ignores other concepts like the time value of money, inheritance, and the like yes ss is a ponzi scheme, but I know what I paid into it -no one knows what I could have done with it if I wasnt coerced into paying it.if even a portion was privatized, at our option, we could be better off but some people dont like to see anyone ever making a profit from anything so its a third rail when I was a kid democratic congresses made huge, huge deficits for the war on poverty, great society, etc and no one was seemingly concerned about my future or taking from me democrats raised tax rates as if there was an endless need for, and supply of compliant suckers with the irs as the sheriff yet somehow we corrected, and survived....by our standard of living we're far better off than decades past, (too bad you missed those wacky carter disco ball years) with low inflation. what inflationary aspect you talking about, nothing is more inflationary than govt mandated colas for handouts outpacing the real rate of inflation if you are young, you are lucky in that you have some tax shelters in which to place some savings (401K, IRA etc) that were not commonly available a quarter of a century ago. work towards investing in these, savings, and in real estate and you wont have to worry about living on crumbs later government spending waste should be assailed, and rightly so, but you cant please everyone. me, i feel every dime spent on our military to keep it #1 is tax money better spent than any entitlement handed out to illegal aliens and other sociopaths and deadbeats yet some bleeding heart will be convinced of the opposite

05-15-2007, 08:29 PM	#15
Sourceworx Hall Of Fame Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Island Posts: 13,412	[QUOTE=isired]Homeland Defense IRAQ / Middle East (I know it could come under other topics, but clearly deserves its own) Healthcare Abortion Alternative Energy Environment Economic Policy (Domestic / Import/Export / Foreign)[/QUOTE] How about Campaign Finance Reform to eliminate or at least curb corruption?

05-16-2007, 11:02 AM	#16
MnJetFan All League Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,302	It sounds great to me. There are so many issues in this country of ours. Taxes, homeland defense, education. Bill of Rights.

05-16-2007, 11:04 AM	#17
Sourceworx Hall Of Fame Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Island Posts: 13,412	[QUOTE=MnJetFan]It sounds great to me. There are so many issues in this country of ours. Taxes, homeland defense, education. Bill of Rights.[/QUOTE] It is a great idea, but I am a bit skeptical. We have some people here who tow the company line for both parties. Neither can do no wrong.

05-16-2007, 11:52 AM	#18
Buster not a rocket surgeon All League Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: East of the Jordan, West of the Rock of Gibraltar Posts: 4,267	[QUOTE=Warfish]A very interesting, and potentially fun, idea. But I think we have far too many "by-the-numbers" partisans (both right and left) for it to work. Worse, we have too many folks for whom rudeness and insult is their primary mode of debate. For such an idea to work, a Mod would have been be actively involved to curb inapprorpiate and unproductive comments/insults.[/QUOTE] yep

05-16-2007, 12:24 PM	#19
MnJetFan All League Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,302	[QUOTE=sourceworx]It is a great idea, but I am a bit skeptical. We have some people here who tow the company line for both parties. Neither can do no wrong.[/QUOTE] I try my best to vote for the best candidate available. Unfortunately the candidates from the Republicans and Democrats leave allot to be desired.