I've never seen the Pats in a situation like this before! - Page 2

Tailgater · 09-02-2007, 04:15 PM

[QUOTE=Mikey Z 6]whats the AVERAGE AGE of the patriots[/QUOTE]

27.6 as of today, which is .6yrs older than last season. Whats the Jets average age?

Tailgater · 09-02-2007, 04:20 PM

[QUOTE=jetstream23]LBs are critical to running a strong 3-4. Not only do you need them to be young, smart and talented....but you need a lot of them.[/QUOTE]

Pray tell, when did the Pats ever have young linebackers? They've been pretty successful in the last few years, haven't they?

In fact, flying in the face of your post is the fact that young lb's cannot play in this system as well as the vets. Exhibit A is the afccg, in which their two young guys did start or play significant time (woods & alexander). How'd that work out?

If thats a Jets fans only hope to surpass the Pats, (age), then good luck. Have Tangini sign some pop warner kids, 'cause Vilma is obviously over the hill for a 3-4 lb'er. :P

PatsFanTX · 09-02-2007, 04:24 PM

[QUOTE=jetstream23]LBs are critical to running a strong 3-4. Not only do you need them to be young, smart and talented....but you need a lot of them.[/QUOTE]

Wrong.

The DLine is more critical in a 3-4 defense than the LB's.

Tailgater · 09-02-2007, 04:27 PM

[QUOTE=Bleedin' Green]You people really have the obnoxious level turned up the last few days, huh? I believe he said "prior to 2000" and it is 100% true. Prior to the accidental discovery of Tom Brady, the Patriots were a joke. Has that changed considerably over the last few years? Of course, but that doesn't change what they were not all that long ago.[/QUOTE]

Evidently you and woody stopped watching football after 1969, otherwise you'd know it's teams like the Jets, Cards, & bengals that have been known as the dregs of the league.

Prior to 2000, the Pats had been to the sb twice, and made the playoffs quite a bit (compared to the Jets). They've had good or great teams at times, and crappy ones in others.

samwise · 09-02-2007, 04:28 PM

I've never seen so many chowds with their panties in a bunch before ! :grouplaug

RussianGreen · 09-02-2007, 04:43 PM

[QUOTE=jetstream23]Just an honest, objective observation here...

The Pats have been a model for organizational success over the past 6 years in the NFL, like it or not. They've been well run, well managed and extremely well coached. Sprinkle in a great QB and a little luck and you get 3 Super Bowls. But I think the management and coaching gaps have been closed somewhat over the past couple of years and maybe, just maybe, a little bad luck is starting to creep in.
...[/QUOTE]
Completely disagree. Patriots were and are an organization run by a bunch of scumbags who will sell there mothers skin for a change. They never been a model franchise, they just were able to shovel all dirt under the rag while their players with HGH oozing from their ears and zebras all but kissing their shoes on a field were collecting those SB awards (no one in right mind will call those "achievements" wins).
Now however I believe that pats assemble a legitimate powerhouse and loss of one or two players is just a bump on the road for them. They are absurdly deep in every position, they have the best QB in a game (arguably), they signed most coveted FA this year.. I doubt that even after ROIDney suspension and Seymour injury Vegas line on chowds SB chances moved.

PatsFanTX · 09-02-2007, 04:50 PM

[QUOTE=RussianGreen]Completely disagree. Patriots were and are an organization run by a bunch of scumbags who will sell there mothers skin for a change. They never been a model franchise, they just were able to shovel all dirt under the rag while their players with HGH oozing from their ears and zebras all but kissing their shoes on a field were collecting those SB awards (no one in right mind will call those "achievements" wins).[/QUOTE]

What have the Jets accomplished in the last 38 years?

Talk about an embarrassing organization. :yes:

Bleedin' Green · 09-02-2007, 05:41 PM

[QUOTE=Tailgater]Evidently you and woody stopped watching football after 1969, otherwise you'd know it's teams like the Jets, Cards, & bengals that have been known as the dregs of the league.

Prior to 2000, the Pats had been to the sb twice, and made the playoffs quite a bit (compared to the Jets). They've had good or great teams at times, and crappy ones in others.[/QUOTE]
You're right, everyone thought so highly of the Patriots record-breaking Super Bowl embarrassment.

Tailgater · 09-02-2007, 05:44 PM

[QUOTE=Bleedin' Green]You're right, everyone thought so highly of the Patriots record-breaking Super Bowl embarrassment.[/QUOTE]

Silly me. I wish my team had their most embarrassing moments in the regular season like most other teams. :zzz:

Bleedin' Green · 09-02-2007, 06:07 PM

[QUOTE=Tailgater]Silly me. I wish my team had their most embarrassing moments in the regular season like most other teams. :zzz:[/QUOTE]
You really don't understand the simplest concepts now do you? What the Jets do or have done has absolutely no bearing on the Patriots. The Jets history sucks, you won't find anyone who will deny that. It still doesn't mean that prior to 2001, the Patriots did as well. Of course, I wouldn't want you to take a break from you rubbing one out over how amazingly incomparably legendary you think your team is right now, and how that makes you a god amongst men.

PatriotReign · 09-02-2007, 06:43 PM

[QUOTE=Bleedin' Green]You really don't understand the simplest concepts now do you? What the Jets do or have done has absolutely no bearing on the Patriots. The Jets history sucks, you won't find anyone who will deny that. It still doesn't mean that prior to 2001, the Patriots did as well. Of course, I wouldn't want you to take a break from you rubbing one out over how amazingly incomparably legendary you think your team is right now, and how that makes you a god amongst men.[/QUOTE]

C'mon with the hyperbole, none of us are implying that the Pats are anything other than a great team- saying so does not mean one has a God complex by default. :rolleyes:

We can both agree that the far history of [U]both[/U] teams isn't too spectacular.

NYCFan · 09-02-2007, 07:05 PM

Pats fan here (in the interests of full disclosure). Over for the week to have some good discussion and maybe a little debate :)

Regarding the premise of this thread, I have to admit that I always thought that our "good guys" image was more hype than reality. Rodney Harrison is/was/will be/whatever the heart and soul of our D, and nobody has ever accused him of being goody two shoes. Richard Seymour and Brewski are just plain mean if you aren't wearing a Patriots uniform. Tom Brady, despite his looks and duds, is simply out to win and would run over his mother to pick up a first down (though he would probably go back and pick her upafterwards). I don't recall him ever trying to give Drew his job back...

Also, if you go back to SB XXXVI, we beat the Rams by mauling their receivers at the point of attack and making every big hit we could when they managed to catch a ball. There were guys whose primary job on certain plays was simply to hit guys coming off the line, no matter where the play was going. The game plan is in Canton and it was pure aggression.

As for the HGH issue, I think Lupica had it right in today's News. Rodney is just the first of many, who will be exposed.

We'll win or lose this season based on coaching, preparation and desire. I see nothing that has happened so far that will change that fact.

NE>NY · 09-02-2007, 07:09 PM

[QUOTE=jetstream23]Just an honest, objective observation here...

The Pats have been a model for organizational success over the past 6 years in the NFL, like it or not. They've been well run, well managed and extremely well coached. Sprinkle in a great QB and a little luck and you get 3 Super Bowls. But I think the management and coaching gaps have been closed somewhat over the past couple of years and maybe, just maybe, a little bad luck is starting to creep in.

It used to be that the success of the team was held far above that of the individual in New England. A team first philosophy propelled them in 2001 when they beat the Rams after being introduced as a team to start the Super Bowl. Players seemed to WANT to be in New England, to structure contracts to benefit the team, etc. Recent evidence indicates that this is not the case. The departure of Deion Branch, Damieon Woody and Asante Samuels holdout this year now show that the Pats are quite similar to every other team in this regard. A "character first" approach to personnel in the early 2000's also seems to have been put on the back burner. A guy like Randy Moss would never have been traded for in 2002 or 2003. A guy like Brandon Merriwether might have been considered had he slipped to the 3rd round but never taken first by the Patriots. The Rodney Harrison situation is just one other small example of "character" not being a core ingredient in New England's recipe anymore. Again, this is not the 2001 Patriots which was a very special and magical team, no doubt about it. All of the things I'm mentioning have taken place after that team won....they are the efforts needed to compete in a league that has caught up with the Patriots.

And finally, age and injury are creeping up. Maybe it's bad luck, maybe it's stretching for one more Super Bowl with BB/Pioli/Brady intact. I don't know, but outside of the addition of A. Thomas who isn't old (but isn't young either) that LB corps is looking old. The addition of Seau last year surprised me, the continued reliance on Bruschi probably worries most Patriot fans. A significant injury to Richard Seymour, nagging injuries for Maroney, Moss and others....all before the season has even started put the team in an unusual position for a consensus Super Bowl favorite.

With all of the above, the Pats still have the two most important things working for them...Belichick and Brady. Until one or both of them are gone, the Pats will always have a chance. I just find this year's situation, which has been building over the past few years, very odd for the Pats. The model of stability seems more like a model of uncertainty than ever before. I just can't remember so many questions for this team at one time. A. Samuel's holdout, R. Moss' possible trade/release, R. Seymour's injury, and R. Harrison's suspension....all in one year? In previous years just one of these would be a major headline.[/QUOTE]

This is a fair post.....I would disagree on Damien
Woody(he wanted a fortune and we couldn't wait to get rid of him)

Branch was a mistake,but he was under contract.
The injury to Chad Jackson screwed up their fall back scenario.

The rest of the league has caught up to the Patriots....it's the nature of the beast.Whenever you see such a large increase in the Salary Cap,
with many teams having excess funds,well,things
are going to change.

On the flip side....The Pats are also loaded with draft choices,well under the salary cap,and have
their key players signed long-term.

Sure Belichick and Brady are important,and luck
has played a part......However,it's Scott Pioli as GM,who really drives the Patriot engine.

Because of him,the Patriots won the pre-season race......not by being smarter,but by being faster
and more decisive.

09-02-2007, 04:15 PM	#21
Tailgater Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,436	[QUOTE=Mikey Z 6]whats the AVERAGE AGE of the patriots[/QUOTE] 27.6 as of today, which is .6yrs older than last season. Whats the Jets average age?

09-02-2007, 04:20 PM	#22
Tailgater Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,436	[QUOTE=jetstream23]LBs are critical to running a strong 3-4. Not only do you need them to be young, smart and talented....but you need a lot of them.[/QUOTE] Pray tell, when did the Pats ever have young linebackers? They've been pretty successful in the last few years, haven't they? In fact, flying in the face of your post is the fact that young lb's cannot play in this system as well as the vets. Exhibit A is the afccg, in which their two young guys did start or play significant time (woods & alexander). How'd that work out? If thats a Jets fans only hope to surpass the Pats, (age), then good luck. Have Tangini sign some pop warner kids, 'cause Vilma is obviously over the hill for a 3-4 lb'er. :P

09-02-2007, 04:24 PM	#23
PatsFanTX JI Resident Troll Banned Join Date: May 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 52,068	[QUOTE=jetstream23]LBs are critical to running a strong 3-4. Not only do you need them to be young, smart and talented....but you need a lot of them.[/QUOTE] Wrong. The DLine is more critical in a 3-4 defense than the LB's.

09-02-2007, 04:27 PM	#24
Tailgater Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,436	[QUOTE=Bleedin' Green]You people really have the obnoxious level turned up the last few days, huh? I believe he said "prior to 2000" and it is 100% true. Prior to the accidental discovery of Tom Brady, the Patriots were a joke. Has that changed considerably over the last few years? Of course, but that doesn't change what they were not all that long ago.[/QUOTE] Evidently you and woody stopped watching football after 1969, otherwise you'd know it's teams like the Jets, Cards, & bengals that have been known as the dregs of the league. Prior to 2000, the Pats had been to the sb twice, and made the playoffs quite a bit (compared to the Jets). They've had good or great teams at times, and crappy ones in others.

09-02-2007, 04:28 PM	#25
samwise Hall Of Fame Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bethel, CT Posts: 11,258	I've never seen so many chowds with their panties in a bunch before ! :grouplaug

09-02-2007, 04:43 PM	#26
RussianGreen hates you Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,418	[QUOTE=jetstream23]Just an honest, objective observation here... The Pats have been a model for organizational success over the past 6 years in the NFL, like it or not. They've been well run, well managed and extremely well coached. Sprinkle in a great QB and a little luck and you get 3 Super Bowls. But I think the management and coaching gaps have been closed somewhat over the past couple of years and maybe, just maybe, a little bad luck is starting to creep in. ...[/QUOTE] Completely disagree. Patriots were and are an organization run by a bunch of scumbags who will sell there mothers skin for a change. They never been a model franchise, they just were able to shovel all dirt under the rag while their players with HGH oozing from their ears and zebras all but kissing their shoes on a field were collecting those SB awards (no one in right mind will call those "achievements" wins). Now however I believe that pats assemble a legitimate powerhouse and loss of one or two players is just a bump on the road for them. They are absurdly deep in every position, they have the best QB in a game (arguably), they signed most coveted FA this year.. I doubt that even after ROIDney suspension and Seymour injury Vegas line on chowds SB chances moved.

09-02-2007, 04:50 PM	#27
PatsFanTX JI Resident Troll Banned Join Date: May 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 52,068	[QUOTE=RussianGreen]Completely disagree. Patriots were and are an organization run by a bunch of scumbags who will sell there mothers skin for a change. They never been a model franchise, they just were able to shovel all dirt under the rag while their players with HGH oozing from their ears and zebras all but kissing their shoes on a field were collecting those SB awards (no one in right mind will call those "achievements" wins).[/QUOTE] What have the Jets accomplished in the last 38 years? Talk about an embarrassing organization. :yes:

09-02-2007, 05:41 PM	#28
Bleedin' Green Hall Of Fame Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 13,093	[QUOTE=Tailgater]Evidently you and woody stopped watching football after 1969, otherwise you'd know it's teams like the Jets, Cards, & bengals that have been known as the dregs of the league. Prior to 2000, the Pats had been to the sb twice, and made the playoffs quite a bit (compared to the Jets). They've had good or great teams at times, and crappy ones in others.[/QUOTE] You're right, everyone thought so highly of the Patriots record-breaking Super Bowl embarrassment.

09-02-2007, 05:44 PM	#29
Tailgater Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,436	[QUOTE=Bleedin' Green]You're right, everyone thought so highly of the Patriots record-breaking Super Bowl embarrassment.[/QUOTE] Silly me. I wish my team had their most embarrassing moments in the regular season like most other teams. :zzz:

09-02-2007, 06:07 PM	#30
Bleedin' Green Hall Of Fame Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 13,093	[QUOTE=Tailgater]Silly me. I wish my team had their most embarrassing moments in the regular season like most other teams. :zzz:[/QUOTE] You really don't understand the simplest concepts now do you? What the Jets do or have done has absolutely no bearing on the Patriots. The Jets history sucks, you won't find anyone who will deny that. It still doesn't mean that prior to 2001, the Patriots did as well. Of course, I wouldn't want you to take a break from you rubbing one out over how amazingly incomparably legendary you think your team is right now, and how that makes you a god amongst men.

09-02-2007, 06:43 PM	#31
PatriotReign Asterisks of Excellence *** All League Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boston area Posts: 4,353	[QUOTE=Bleedin' Green]You really don't understand the simplest concepts now do you? What the Jets do or have done has absolutely no bearing on the Patriots. The Jets history sucks, you won't find anyone who will deny that. It still doesn't mean that prior to 2001, the Patriots did as well. Of course, I wouldn't want you to take a break from you rubbing one out over how amazingly incomparably legendary you think your team is right now, and how that makes you a god amongst men.[/QUOTE] C'mon with the hyperbole, none of us are implying that the Pats are anything other than a great team- saying so does not mean one has a God complex by default. :rolleyes: We can both agree that the far history of [U]both[/U] teams isn't too spectacular.

09-02-2007, 07:05 PM	#32
NYCFan Veteran Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 341	Pats fan here (in the interests of full disclosure). Over for the week to have some good discussion and maybe a little debate :) Regarding the premise of this thread, I have to admit that I always thought that our "good guys" image was more hype than reality. Rodney Harrison is/was/will be/whatever the heart and soul of our D, and nobody has ever accused him of being goody two shoes. Richard Seymour and Brewski are just plain mean if you aren't wearing a Patriots uniform. Tom Brady, despite his looks and duds, is simply out to win and would run over his mother to pick up a first down (though he would probably go back and pick her upafterwards). I don't recall him ever trying to give Drew his job back... Also, if you go back to SB XXXVI, we beat the Rams by mauling their receivers at the point of attack and making every big hit we could when they managed to catch a ball. There were guys whose primary job on certain plays was simply to hit guys coming off the line, no matter where the play was going. The game plan is in Canton and it was pure aggression. As for the HGH issue, I think Lupica had it right in today's News. Rodney is just the first of many, who will be exposed. We'll win or lose this season based on coaching, preparation and desire. I see nothing that has happened so far that will change that fact.

09-02-2007, 07:09 PM	#33
NE>NY Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 337	[QUOTE=jetstream23]Just an honest, objective observation here... The Pats have been a model for organizational success over the past 6 years in the NFL, like it or not. They've been well run, well managed and extremely well coached. Sprinkle in a great QB and a little luck and you get 3 Super Bowls. But I think the management and coaching gaps have been closed somewhat over the past couple of years and maybe, just maybe, a little bad luck is starting to creep in. It used to be that the success of the team was held far above that of the individual in New England. A team first philosophy propelled them in 2001 when they beat the Rams after being introduced as a team to start the Super Bowl. Players seemed to WANT to be in New England, to structure contracts to benefit the team, etc. Recent evidence indicates that this is not the case. The departure of Deion Branch, Damieon Woody and Asante Samuels holdout this year now show that the Pats are quite similar to every other team in this regard. A "character first" approach to personnel in the early 2000's also seems to have been put on the back burner. A guy like Randy Moss would never have been traded for in 2002 or 2003. A guy like Brandon Merriwether might have been considered had he slipped to the 3rd round but never taken first by the Patriots. The Rodney Harrison situation is just one other small example of "character" not being a core ingredient in New England's recipe anymore. Again, this is not the 2001 Patriots which was a very special and magical team, no doubt about it. All of the things I'm mentioning have taken place after that team won....they are the efforts needed to compete in a league that has caught up with the Patriots. And finally, age and injury are creeping up. Maybe it's bad luck, maybe it's stretching for one more Super Bowl with BB/Pioli/Brady intact. I don't know, but outside of the addition of A. Thomas who isn't old (but isn't young either) that LB corps is looking old. The addition of Seau last year surprised me, the continued reliance on Bruschi probably worries most Patriot fans. A significant injury to Richard Seymour, nagging injuries for Maroney, Moss and others....all before the season has even started put the team in an unusual position for a consensus Super Bowl favorite. With all of the above, the Pats still have the two most important things working for them...Belichick and Brady. Until one or both of them are gone, the Pats will always have a chance. I just find this year's situation, which has been building over the past few years, very odd for the Pats. The model of stability seems more like a model of uncertainty than ever before. I just can't remember so many questions for this team at one time. A. Samuel's holdout, R. Moss' possible trade/release, R. Seymour's injury, and R. Harrison's suspension....all in one year? In previous years just one of these would be a major headline.[/QUOTE] This is a fair post.....I would disagree on Damien Woody(he wanted a fortune and we couldn't wait to get rid of him) Branch was a mistake,but he was under contract. The injury to Chad Jackson screwed up their fall back scenario. The rest of the league has caught up to the Patriots....it's the nature of the beast.Whenever you see such a large increase in the Salary Cap, with many teams having excess funds,well,things are going to change. On the flip side....The Pats are also loaded with draft choices,well under the salary cap,and have their key players signed long-term. Sure Belichick and Brady are important,and luck has played a part......However,it's Scott Pioli as GM,who really drives the Patriot engine. Because of him,the Patriots won the pre-season race......not by being smarter,but by being faster and more decisive.