No Matter Who Wins, Taxes Must Be Raised!

bitonti · 04-11-2008, 01:48 PM

[quote]
Iraq is the first major war that this country has fought by transferring the entire cost to future generations, including the generation fighting the war, through government debt. President Bush has never proposed raising taxes to pay for the conflict. Instead, he has presided over an increase in domestic spending and substantially cut taxes in 2003, an unprecedented step during wartime. "[B]In every other major war ... we raised taxes[/B]," says Robert Hormats, author of The Price of Liberty, an authoritative and insightful recent book on how America has financed its wars. "This is the first major war where we have cut taxes ... and it is the first major war where we have increased domestic ... spending rather than cut it. As a result, the entire incremental cost of the war has been borrowed."

That cost is formidable. The Congressional Budget Office calculates that the Iraq war has already cost $600 billion. That bill is rising by $10.3 billion per month. Because all of that money has been borrowed, the interest on that additional debt might swell the price tag by another $600 billion over the next decade, the House Budget Committee estimates.

[url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24068090/[/url]
[/quote]

So please can we stop hearing about how Obama is gonna raise taxes. Here's a news flash - McCain will too!

Warfish · 04-11-2008, 02:05 PM

No.

End the Iraq War.

Cut Spending on Foreign Aid.

Cut spending on our wasteful and counterproductive Social Programs.

Balance the Budget.

Enact a Flat/Fair Tax and Dismantle the IRS.

And the vast majority of us in the middle class would be paying quite a bit Less.

JCnflies · 04-11-2008, 02:13 PM

Personally, if I was Prez, I would dio much of what Warfish said, but ......

I would raise them for one year and the entire increase would go 100% to debt, cut that increase in half for the next year with the entire half increase going to debt and return them to the original rate for the third year.

Finally, I would look to go even lower than today in the 4th year, assuming the debt is well on its way to being obliterated and another tax cut would not straini the conomy.

I am into no debt and tax cuts. Btw, if the debt is eliminated under the plan, eventually yuo actually save a lot of money which would then be included in future tax cuts. I've fought debnt enough to know that if it creeps up, you have to get it down ASAP>

Jetfan_Johnny · 04-11-2008, 02:33 PM

the next president will raise taxes I agree.

Once he does he will seal his fate ala GHWB

bitonti · 04-11-2008, 02:36 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;2475688]No.

End the Iraq War.

Cut Spending on Foreign Aid.

Cut spending on our wasteful and counterproductive Social Programs.

Balance the Budget.

Enact a Flat/Fair Tax and Dismantle the IRS.

And the vast majority of us in the middle class would be paying quite a bit Less.[/QUOTE]

thanks Ron Paul. None of that stuff will happen. In the real world, Taxes MUST BE RAISED!

nuu faaola · 04-11-2008, 02:44 PM

[QUOTE=Jetfan_Johnny;2475726]the next president will raise taxes I agree.

Once he does he will seal his fate ala GHWB[/QUOTE]

GHWB didn't lose because he raised taxes. He lost because he raised them after getting elected by promising not to do so.

Warfish · 04-11-2008, 02:48 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti;2475730]thanks Ron Paul. None of that stuff will happen. In the real world, Taxes MUST BE RAISED![/QUOTE]

Agreed.

In the real world, the next President will continue the War in Iraq and Afganistan. While some troops will come home, most will stay as will our costs.

The next President will meddle in the economy with ill thought out and ill advised "stimulus programs" and yet more bailouts.

The next President will engage in furthering our wasteful, poorly run, anti-responsabillity Social Welfare programs, further pushing us away from Capitalism and Personal Responsabillity and the Entreprenuer Spirt, and further towards a unmotivated behind the curve and reactionary Eurpoean style Socialist Welfare State.

The next President will also raise taxes, and as tax raises have in the past, companies and the wealthy will continue to have many ways to avoid these increases, or to pass them on to their customers, and the vast majority of this increased burden will be born by people like me, the kind of waraday folks who make between $25K and $75K a year.

The "poor" will continue to live lives far exceeding that of the poor anywhere else on Earth, in any era, and avoiding personal responsabillity or work as much as possible.

Illegal immigrants will continue to pour across our pourus southern border. Most will eventually be citizens, rewarded for their crime.

Right will continue to hate left and engage in obstructionism.

Left will continue to hate right and engage in obstructionism.

Both sides will continue to use wedge issues such as abortion and gay rights to keep the lefties on the far left, and the righties on the far right.

And as has become the norm, the moderate middle class will be left holding the bag.

Welcome to the real world. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

Winstonbiggs · 04-11-2008, 02:50 PM

Hard to see a sharp tax increase until we have put the recession behind us. To raise taxes in this environment would be a death blow to the economy.

MnJetFan · 04-11-2008, 04:25 PM

How about cutting subsidies to every tom dick and harry. Slow tax hikes over the next four years. Oh yes forget about national healthcare it was a pipe dream anyway. Get people off the welfare rolls and find jobs for them. Earn your way! How about keepinng jobs in the US I frankly could careless about global economy. Lets take care of the USA FIRST!

parafly · 04-11-2008, 04:35 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;2475688]No.

End the Iraq War.

Cut Spending on Foreign Aid.

Cut spending on our wasteful and counterproductive Social Programs.

Balance the Budget.

Enact a Flat/Fair Tax and Dismantle the IRS.

And the vast majority of us in the middle class would be paying quite a bit Less.[/QUOTE]

For someone who despised Ron Paul, you sure do sound an awful lot like him. :P

parafly · 04-11-2008, 04:36 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti;2475730]thanks Ron Paul. None of that stuff will happen. In the real world, Taxes MUST BE RAISED![/QUOTE]

I should have read the rest of the thread. :O

Warfish · 04-11-2008, 04:51 PM

[QUOTE=parafly;2475953]I should have read the rest of the thread. :O[/QUOTE]

Yes sir you should have. :P

And I didn't despise Ron Paul. I simply didn't (and don't) trust the man.

King Ryan · 04-11-2008, 04:56 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;2475757]The next President will also raise taxes, and as tax raises have in the past, companies and the wealthy will continue to have many ways to avoid these increases, or to pass them on to their customers, and the vast majority of this increased burden will be born by people like me, the kind of waraday folks who make between $25K and $75K a year. [/QUOTE]

HA!

piney · 04-11-2008, 05:41 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;2475688]No.

End the Iraq War.

Cut Spending on Foreign Aid.

Cut spending on our wasteful and counterproductive Social Programs.

Balance the Budget.

Enact a Flat/Fair Tax and Dismantle the IRS.

And the vast majority of us in the middle class would be paying quite a bit Less.[/QUOTE]

in all seriousness, if you ever form a country, let me know...

I call dibs on citizenship!!!!!

Smashmouth · 04-11-2008, 06:50 PM

Warfish
[QUOTE]No.

End the Iraq War.

Cut Spending on Foreign Aid.

Cut spending on our wasteful and counterproductive Social Programs.

Balance the Budget.

Enact a Flat/Fair Tax and Dismantle the IRS.

And the vast majority of us in the middle class would be paying quite a bit Less.[/QUOTE]

BINGO!!!!

Smashmouth · 04-11-2008, 06:51 PM

Bitonti this country needed Ron PAUL and we let REAL change get away. Now we get the same old **** .

long island leprechaun · 04-11-2008, 06:55 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish;2475688]No.

End the Iraq War.

Cut Spending on Foreign Aid.

Cut spending on our wasteful and counterproductive Social Programs.

Balance the Budget.

Enact a Flat/Fair Tax and Dismantle the IRS.

And the vast majority of us in the middle class would be paying quite a bit Less.[/QUOTE]

Take out the Military Budget, Medicare and Social Security and now tell me how you're going to balance the budget. Ronald Reagan shot the wad and quadrupled the budget despite cutting every agency of government and trying to reduce disability and entitlement programs. It's the middle class programs and military welfare that drive the budget and those are sacrosanct.

Smashmouth · 04-11-2008, 06:59 PM

Winstonbiggs weve already been death blown . Were hanging by a thread and when it blows people better be ready for it. Seems too many are turning there heads and do not want to believe the inevitable.

Warfish · 04-11-2008, 07:37 PM

[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2476238]Take out the Military Budget, Medicare and Social Security and now tell me how you're going to balance the budget. Ronald Reagan shot the wad and quadrupled the budget despite cutting every agency of government and trying to reduce disability and entitlement programs. It's the middle class programs and military welfare that drive the budget and those are sacrosanct.[/QUOTE]

And you feel confidant in saying that, without having any idea what the flat/fair tax Percentage would be, or knowing that it could be higher to start, then lower later? Or how much additional income such a tax could generate from corporate sources, who currently have a massive amount of loopholes and exclusions, on top of a rather low rate to begin with?

Reagan had the Russians to outspend and defeat. We have terrorists insurgents and invaders to defend ourselves against, big difference, both in tactics and costs.

And why are you assuming Medicare and Social Secirity are sacrosanct? Changes can and should be made to streamline and lower the costs of both agencies....prior to their eventual complete dissolution, of course.

And I'd really love to know which "Middle class" programs we're all enjoying, cause I sure as hell don't see many personally, but eh.

Point is, there are a vast number of changes we could make that would better the country, and that do not include either Socialism or Massive Tax rates. We can talk all day as to what those changes are, but if one starts theor view from the Socialism side, it woul dbe a hard sell regardless.

Jetfan_Johnny · 04-11-2008, 10:20 PM

[QUOTE=nuu faaola;2475747]GHWB didn't lose because he raised taxes. He lost because he raised them after getting elected by promising not to do so.[/QUOTE]

You are right. But none of these candidates are going to go to the debate and say " times are tough all around, we need to raise taxes". Everybody is going to say " tax cuts for the working families and the middle class" even though we all know taxes are going up.

And then they will raise taxes ala GHWB.

04-11-2008, 01:48 PM	#1
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	No Matter Who Wins, Taxes Must Be Raised! [quote] Iraq is the first major war that this country has fought by transferring the entire cost to future generations, including the generation fighting the war, through government debt. President Bush has never proposed raising taxes to pay for the conflict. Instead, he has presided over an increase in domestic spending and substantially cut taxes in 2003, an unprecedented step during wartime. "[B]In every other major war ... we raised taxes[/B]," says Robert Hormats, author of The Price of Liberty, an authoritative and insightful recent book on how America has financed its wars. "This is the first major war where we have cut taxes ... and it is the first major war where we have increased domestic ... spending rather than cut it. As a result, the entire incremental cost of the war has been borrowed." That cost is formidable. The Congressional Budget Office calculates that the Iraq war has already cost $600 billion. That bill is rising by $10.3 billion per month. Because all of that money has been borrowed, the interest on that additional debt might swell the price tag by another $600 billion over the next decade, the House Budget Committee estimates. [url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24068090/[/url] [/quote] So please can we stop hearing about how Obama is gonna raise taxes. Here's a news flash - McCain will too!

04-11-2008, 02:48 PM	#7
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=bitonti;2475730]thanks Ron Paul. None of that stuff will happen. In the real world, Taxes MUST BE RAISED![/QUOTE] Agreed. In the real world, the next President will continue the War in Iraq and Afganistan. While some troops will come home, most will stay as will our costs. The next President will meddle in the economy with ill thought out and ill advised "stimulus programs" and yet more bailouts. The next President will engage in furthering our wasteful, poorly run, anti-responsabillity Social Welfare programs, further pushing us away from Capitalism and Personal Responsabillity and the Entreprenuer Spirt, and further towards a unmotivated behind the curve and reactionary Eurpoean style Socialist Welfare State. The next President will also raise taxes, and as tax raises have in the past, companies and the wealthy will continue to have many ways to avoid these increases, or to pass them on to their customers, and the vast majority of this increased burden will be born by people like me, the kind of waraday folks who make between $25K and $75K a year. The "poor" will continue to live lives far exceeding that of the poor anywhere else on Earth, in any era, and avoiding personal responsabillity or work as much as possible. Illegal immigrants will continue to pour across our pourus southern border. Most will eventually be citizens, rewarded for their crime. Right will continue to hate left and engage in obstructionism. Left will continue to hate right and engage in obstructionism. Both sides will continue to use wedge issues such as abortion and gay rights to keep the lefties on the far left, and the righties on the far right. And as has become the norm, the moderate middle class will be left holding the bag. Welcome to the real world. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave. Last edited by Warfish; 04-11-2008 at 02:52 PM.

04-11-2008, 02:05 PM	#2
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	No. End the Iraq War. Cut Spending on Foreign Aid. Cut spending on our wasteful and counterproductive Social Programs. Balance the Budget. Enact a Flat/Fair Tax and Dismantle the IRS. And the vast majority of us in the middle class would be paying quite a bit Less.

04-11-2008, 02:13 PM	#3
JCnflies All Pro Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,709	Personally, if I was Prez, I would dio much of what Warfish said, but ...... I would raise them for one year and the entire increase would go 100% to debt, cut that increase in half for the next year with the entire half increase going to debt and return them to the original rate for the third year. Finally, I would look to go even lower than today in the 4th year, assuming the debt is well on its way to being obliterated and another tax cut would not straini the conomy. I am into no debt and tax cuts. Btw, if the debt is eliminated under the plan, eventually yuo actually save a lot of money which would then be included in future tax cuts. I've fought debnt enough to know that if it creeps up, you have to get it down ASAP>

04-11-2008, 02:33 PM	#4
Jetfan_Johnny All Pro Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,535	the next president will raise taxes I agree. Once he does he will seal his fate ala GHWB

04-11-2008, 02:36 PM	#5
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=Warfish;2475688]No. End the Iraq War. Cut Spending on Foreign Aid. Cut spending on our wasteful and counterproductive Social Programs. Balance the Budget. Enact a Flat/Fair Tax and Dismantle the IRS. And the vast majority of us in the middle class would be paying quite a bit Less.[/QUOTE] thanks Ron Paul. None of that stuff will happen. In the real world, Taxes MUST BE RAISED!

04-11-2008, 02:44 PM	#6
nuu faaola All Pro Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 6,253	[QUOTE=Jetfan_Johnny;2475726]the next president will raise taxes I agree. Once he does he will seal his fate ala GHWB[/QUOTE] GHWB didn't lose because he raised taxes. He lost because he raised them after getting elected by promising not to do so.

04-11-2008, 02:50 PM	#8
Winstonbiggs Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 12,904	Hard to see a sharp tax increase until we have put the recession behind us. To raise taxes in this environment would be a death blow to the economy.

04-11-2008, 04:25 PM	#9
MnJetFan All League Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,302	How about cutting subsidies to every tom dick and harry. Slow tax hikes over the next four years. Oh yes forget about national healthcare it was a pipe dream anyway. Get people off the welfare rolls and find jobs for them. Earn your way! How about keepinng jobs in the US I frankly could careless about global economy. Lets take care of the USA FIRST!

04-11-2008, 04:35 PM	#10
parafly so why side with anything? All Pro Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,280	[QUOTE=Warfish;2475688]No. End the Iraq War. Cut Spending on Foreign Aid. Cut spending on our wasteful and counterproductive Social Programs. Balance the Budget. Enact a Flat/Fair Tax and Dismantle the IRS. And the vast majority of us in the middle class would be paying quite a bit Less.[/QUOTE] For someone who despised Ron Paul, you sure do sound an awful lot like him. :P

04-11-2008, 04:36 PM	#11
parafly so why side with anything? All Pro Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,280	[QUOTE=bitonti;2475730]thanks Ron Paul. None of that stuff will happen. In the real world, Taxes MUST BE RAISED![/QUOTE] I should have read the rest of the thread. :O

04-11-2008, 04:51 PM	#12
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=parafly;2475953]I should have read the rest of the thread. :O[/QUOTE] Yes sir you should have. :P And I didn't despise Ron Paul. I simply didn't (and don't) trust the man.

04-11-2008, 04:56 PM	#13
King Ryan take a guess Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Montville, NJ Posts: 5,473	[QUOTE=Warfish;2475757]The next President will also raise taxes, and as tax raises have in the past, companies and the wealthy will continue to have many ways to avoid these increases, or to pass them on to their customers, and the vast majority of this increased burden will be born by people like me, the kind of waraday folks who make between $25K and $75K a year. [/QUOTE] HA!

04-11-2008, 05:41 PM	#14
piney hip deep in dirty diapers All League Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,618	[QUOTE=Warfish;2475688]No. End the Iraq War. Cut Spending on Foreign Aid. Cut spending on our wasteful and counterproductive Social Programs. Balance the Budget. Enact a Flat/Fair Tax and Dismantle the IRS. And the vast majority of us in the middle class would be paying quite a bit Less.[/QUOTE] in all seriousness, if you ever form a country, let me know... I call dibs on citizenship!!!!!

04-11-2008, 06:50 PM	#15
Smashmouth Smashing....um.....Mouths. Hall Of Fame Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Dallas Via Brooklyn NY Posts: 3,159	Warfish [QUOTE]No. End the Iraq War. Cut Spending on Foreign Aid. Cut spending on our wasteful and counterproductive Social Programs. Balance the Budget. Enact a Flat/Fair Tax and Dismantle the IRS. And the vast majority of us in the middle class would be paying quite a bit Less.[/QUOTE] BINGO!!!!

04-11-2008, 06:51 PM	#16
Smashmouth Smashing....um.....Mouths. Hall Of Fame Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Dallas Via Brooklyn NY Posts: 3,159	Bitonti this country needed Ron PAUL and we let REAL change get away. Now we get the same old **** .

04-11-2008, 06:55 PM	#17
long island leprechaun Don't mess with Angel Eyes. All Pro Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: greenwich village, NYC Posts: 7,207	[QUOTE=Warfish;2475688]No. End the Iraq War. Cut Spending on Foreign Aid. Cut spending on our wasteful and counterproductive Social Programs. Balance the Budget. Enact a Flat/Fair Tax and Dismantle the IRS. And the vast majority of us in the middle class would be paying quite a bit Less.[/QUOTE] Take out the Military Budget, Medicare and Social Security and now tell me how you're going to balance the budget. Ronald Reagan shot the wad and quadrupled the budget despite cutting every agency of government and trying to reduce disability and entitlement programs. It's the middle class programs and military welfare that drive the budget and those are sacrosanct.

04-11-2008, 06:59 PM	#18
Smashmouth Smashing....um.....Mouths. Hall Of Fame Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Dallas Via Brooklyn NY Posts: 3,159	Winstonbiggs weve already been death blown . Were hanging by a thread and when it blows people better be ready for it. Seems too many are turning there heads and do not want to believe the inevitable.

04-11-2008, 07:37 PM	#19
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2476238]Take out the Military Budget, Medicare and Social Security and now tell me how you're going to balance the budget. Ronald Reagan shot the wad and quadrupled the budget despite cutting every agency of government and trying to reduce disability and entitlement programs. It's the middle class programs and military welfare that drive the budget and those are sacrosanct.[/QUOTE] And you feel confidant in saying that, without having any idea what the flat/fair tax Percentage would be, or knowing that it could be higher to start, then lower later? Or how much additional income such a tax could generate from corporate sources, who currently have a massive amount of loopholes and exclusions, on top of a rather low rate to begin with? Reagan had the Russians to outspend and defeat. We have terrorists insurgents and invaders to defend ourselves against, big difference, both in tactics and costs. And why are you assuming Medicare and Social Secirity are sacrosanct? Changes can and should be made to streamline and lower the costs of both agencies....prior to their eventual complete dissolution, of course. And I'd really love to know which "Middle class" programs we're all enjoying, cause I sure as hell don't see many personally, but eh. Point is, there are a vast number of changes we could make that would better the country, and that do not include either Socialism or Massive Tax rates. We can talk all day as to what those changes are, but if one starts theor view from the Socialism side, it woul dbe a hard sell regardless.

04-11-2008, 10:20 PM	#20
Jetfan_Johnny All Pro Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,535	[QUOTE=nuu faaola;2475747]GHWB didn't lose because he raised taxes. He lost because he raised them after getting elected by promising not to do so.[/QUOTE] You are right. But none of these candidates are going to go to the debate and say " times are tough all around, we need to raise taxes". Everybody is going to say " tax cuts for the working families and the middle class" even though we all know taxes are going up. And then they will raise taxes ala GHWB.