Back to the issues: Energy

bigalbarracuda · 09-10-2008, 03:04 PM

[IMG]http://www.treehugger.com/offshore-oil-drilling.jpg[/IMG]

Discuss

Piper · 09-10-2008, 03:05 PM

It's more than zero.

And discuss what?

Is that currently?

What about projections if it were expanded?

bitonti · 09-10-2008, 03:08 PM

we cant drill our way to lower prices or energy independence

or even come close

don't need a big chart to figure that out

the numbers just don't add up

nuu faaola · 09-10-2008, 03:11 PM

It's a good chart, but what it doesn't show is that consumption by China, India, Brazil and other emerging economies is increasing at an off the charts rate, and that's who we will be bidding against for our oil.

The price of oil is going up astronomically regardless of whether we drill offshore or not. I have no problem with bringing more oil online if it happens in the midst of a commitment to make massive investments in non-oil sources, but drilling is useless unless we take steps to massively reduce our use of oil.

The idea that U.S. production increases can have any significant impact on the global price of oil is simply misguided.

We currently use 25% of the world's oil, we produce 3%. China and India --which are growing 3x as fast as we are and are building massive middle classes that consume more like we do-- are going to make it impossible for us to continue securing that 25% at anything resembling current prices.

bigalbarracuda · 09-10-2008, 03:14 PM

[QUOTE=nuu faaola;2742425]It's a good chart, but what it doesn't show is that consumption by China, India, Brazil and other emerging economies is increasing at an off the charts rate, and that's who we will be bidding against for our oil.

The price of oil is going up astronomically regardless of whether we drill offshore or not. I have no problem with bringing more oil online if it happens in the midst of a commitment to make massive investments in non-oil sources, but drilling is useless unless we take steps to massively reduce our use of oil.

The idea that U.S. production increases can have any significant impact on the global price of oil is simply misguided.

We currently use 25% of the world's oil, we produce 3%. China and India --which are growing 3x as fast as we are and are building massive middle classes that consume more like we do-- are going to make it impossible for us to continue securing that 25% at anything resembling current prices.[/QUOTE]

And we have a winner...

SDJETS · 09-10-2008, 03:17 PM

Screw that. Drill here, drill now. Its the answer to all of our problems, dig?

bigalbarracuda · 09-10-2008, 03:26 PM

[QUOTE=Piper;2742412]It's more than zero.

And discuss what?

Is that currently?

What about projections if it were expanded?[/QUOTE]

1- It's [B]not [/B]more than zero until 2020... and by then it's still pretty damn close.
2- This is a projection done by the United States Energy Information Administration.
3- This is a projection expanded out 25 years from now.

The point is Piper that an Energy policy based upon the central idea of "Drill Here, Drill Now" is a sham.

I'll concede that we need increased domestic production... but it won't even come close to having an effect.

MnJetFan · 09-10-2008, 03:39 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti;2742419]we cant drill our way to lower prices or energy independence

or even come close

don't need a big chart to figure that out

the numbers just don't add up[/QUOTE]

Ok, lets not drill! Lets just wait till gas hits 10bucks and the country goes into a depression then what!

JetsFan2012 · 09-10-2008, 03:40 PM

Right, drilling for oil is a mere drop in the bucket, but it certainly can't hurt. Why not push for a little extra in the reserves? It'll create some more work for the country's oilmen too, as long as that job hasn't been outsourced to illegal immigrants yet.

LOL at the image source, btw. I held the cursor over the thread title on the politics board and the first thing I see come up is [url]www.treehugger.com[/url].

SDJETS · 09-10-2008, 03:47 PM

[QUOTE=pauliec;2742500]Right, drilling for oil is a mere drop in the bucket, but it certainly can't hurt. Why not push for a little extra in the reserves? It'll create some more work for the country's oilmen too, as long as that job hasn't been outsourced to illegal immigrants yet.

LOL at the image source, btw. I held the cursor over the thread title on the politics board and the first thing I see come up is [url]www.treehugger.com[/url].[/QUOTE]

Actually, it sure can hurt. If something has already been proven to not [I]help[/I], but does have the potential to really screw up other things, is it really worth pursuing? It has already been documented that offshore drilling will have [B]zero[/B] effect on gas prices (there are ever reports today coming out that the high price of gas, at the moment, has nothing to do with actual supply and demand).

Sure, 25 years from now there might be a small change to gas prices because of offshore drilling, but by that time we'll be so screwed for many reasons, not least of which is the ones cited above of India and China's growing demand, that it won't matter at all...

On the other hand, 25 years from now this country can be mass producing vehicles that need [B]zero[/B] gas and investing heavily in bio fuels, no longer needing to drill offshore.

So let's see, we can chomp at the bit and demand more drilling, or we can actually take steps to make more drilling moot.

parafly · 09-10-2008, 03:51 PM

So if the United States starts new offshore drilling TODAY, the oil produced from these actions will amount to 1.2% of our total oil usage by the year 2030.

Sounds like a huge waste of time to me. We would be much wiser to devote more of our resources toward developing alternative energy.

How much of a difference will 1.2% make 20 years from now? Not much...and most of that will be offset by the resources required to get this whole thing started in the first place.

nuu faaola · 09-10-2008, 03:52 PM

[QUOTE=SDJETS;2742515]Actually, it sure can hurt. If something has already been proven to not [I]help[/I], but does have the potential to really screw up other things, is it really worth pursuing? It has already been documented that offshore drilling will have [B]zero[/B] effect on gas prices (there are ever reports today coming out that the high price of gas, at the moment, has nothing to do with actual supply and demand).

Sure, 25 years from now there might be a small change to gas prices because of offshore drilling, but by that time we'll be so screwed for many reasons, not least of which is the ones cited above of India and China's growing demand, that it won't matter at all...

On the other hand, 25 years from now this country can be mass producing vehicles that need [B]zero[/B] gas and investing heavily in bio fuels, no longer needing to drill offshore.

So let's see, we can chomp at the bit and demand more drilling, or we can actually take steps to make more drilling moot.[/QUOTE]

In 25 years the amount of oil being consumed by India and China will have so far exceeded the miniscule new supply we'll have put online that the impact will be mere pennies per gallon, at most, versus wherever else it would have been by then. By which I mean, it will be something like $8 a gallon instead of $8.05.

By all means, drill a little. But don't delude yourself into thinking its more than a miniscule part of a real solution. Oil is a limited resource, global demand is increasing exponentially, and the new supply out there is incremental at best.

I don't mind some drilling --it can't really hurt-- but only if the agreement to allow it makes real investments in things that can at the very least rid our electric grid of dependence on oil.

JetsFan2012 · 09-10-2008, 03:53 PM

[QUOTE=SDJETS;2742515]

So let's see, we can chomp at the bit and demand more drilling, or we can actually take steps to make more drilling moot.[/QUOTE]

Why can't we do both?

MnJetFan · 09-10-2008, 04:16 PM

[QUOTE=parafly;2742522]So if the United States starts new offshore drilling TODAY, the oil produced from these actions will amount to 1.2% of our total oil usage by the year 2030.

Sounds like a huge waste of time to me. We would be much wiser to devote more of our resources toward developing alternative energy.

How much of a difference will 1.2% make 20 years from now? Not much...and most of that will be offset by the resources required to get this whole thing started in the first place.[/QUOTE]

The big difference is we will be using more of our own oil instead of buying from OPEC. That is the point.. Everyone wants wind turbines, (but not in my backyard), nuclear energy(not here), coal(to dirty) Tell me what then?

SanAntonio_JetFan · 09-10-2008, 04:19 PM

Drilling and investing in alternative energy sources are not mutually exlusive. I don't know why people think that.

jetstream23 · 09-10-2008, 04:20 PM

[QUOTE=bigalbarracuda;2742406][IMG]http://www.treehugger.com/offshore-oil-drilling.jpg[/IMG]

Discuss[/QUOTE]

A part of the solution.

Not [I]thee[/I] solution.

bitonti · 09-10-2008, 04:21 PM

[QUOTE=MnJetFan;2742497]Ok, lets not drill! Lets just wait till gas hits 10bucks and the country goes into a depression then what![/QUOTE]

yeah but that's the point - it doesn't matter if we drill or not, if gas is gonna hit 10 dollars it's gonna hit 10 dollars.

Winstonbiggs · 09-10-2008, 04:21 PM

Where does natural gas fit in the equation?

jetstream23 · 09-10-2008, 04:22 PM

[QUOTE=SanAntonio_JetFan;2742574]Drilling and investing in alternative energy sources are not mutually exlusive. I don't know why people think that.[/QUOTE]

Idiots think they are mutually exclusive and then use someone's support of drilling to say they must be against alt. energies.

It's like saying, do you want a good running game on offense or a strong passing game?

If someone says they want the Jets to have a better running game this year that DOES NOT mean they're against throwing the ball. The end game is scoring points and you need to do both.

The end game in energy is lower prices and sustainable supply. You drill for more oil and support alternative energies to accomplish this.

bitonti · 09-10-2008, 04:23 PM

[QUOTE=jetstream23;2742577]A part of the solution.

Not [I]thee[/I] solution.[/QUOTE]

If the demand rises faster than supply, then more drilling is not even a part of the solution

why is it so hard for people to understand the basic fundementals? It's like as Americans we expect cheap gas as a right. those days are gone forever and they aren't coming back.

09-10-2008, 03:04 PM	#1
bigalbarracuda Rookie Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New York City Posts: 898	Back to the issues: Energy [IMG]http://www.treehugger.com/offshore-oil-drilling.jpg[/IMG] Discuss

09-10-2008, 03:05 PM	#2
Piper Hall Of Fame Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: L.I. NY (where the Jets used to be from) Posts: 13,197	It's more than zero. And discuss what? Is that currently? What about projections if it were expanded?

09-10-2008, 03:08 PM	#3
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	we cant drill our way to lower prices or energy independence or even come close don't need a big chart to figure that out the numbers just don't add up

09-10-2008, 03:11 PM	#4
nuu faaola All Pro Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 6,253	It's a good chart, but what it doesn't show is that consumption by China, India, Brazil and other emerging economies is increasing at an off the charts rate, and that's who we will be bidding against for our oil. The price of oil is going up astronomically regardless of whether we drill offshore or not. I have no problem with bringing more oil online if it happens in the midst of a commitment to make massive investments in non-oil sources, but drilling is useless unless we take steps to massively reduce our use of oil. The idea that U.S. production increases can have any significant impact on the global price of oil is simply misguided. We currently use 25% of the world's oil, we produce 3%. China and India --which are growing 3x as fast as we are and are building massive middle classes that consume more like we do-- are going to make it impossible for us to continue securing that 25% at anything resembling current prices.

09-10-2008, 03:14 PM	#5
bigalbarracuda Rookie Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New York City Posts: 898	[QUOTE=nuu faaola;2742425]It's a good chart, but what it doesn't show is that consumption by China, India, Brazil and other emerging economies is increasing at an off the charts rate, and that's who we will be bidding against for our oil. The price of oil is going up astronomically regardless of whether we drill offshore or not. I have no problem with bringing more oil online if it happens in the midst of a commitment to make massive investments in non-oil sources, but drilling is useless unless we take steps to massively reduce our use of oil. The idea that U.S. production increases can have any significant impact on the global price of oil is simply misguided. We currently use 25% of the world's oil, we produce 3%. China and India --which are growing 3x as fast as we are and are building massive middle classes that consume more like we do-- are going to make it impossible for us to continue securing that 25% at anything resembling current prices.[/QUOTE] And we have a winner...

09-10-2008, 03:17 PM	#6
SDJETS Should be renamed SeaJets. Living large in WA now... Veteran Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,940	Screw that. Drill here, drill now. Its the answer to all of our problems, dig?

09-10-2008, 03:26 PM	#7
bigalbarracuda Rookie Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New York City Posts: 898	[QUOTE=Piper;2742412]It's more than zero. And discuss what? Is that currently? What about projections if it were expanded?[/QUOTE] 1- It's [B]not [/B]more than zero until 2020... and by then it's still pretty damn close. 2- This is a projection done by the United States Energy Information Administration. 3- This is a projection expanded out 25 years from now. The point is Piper that an Energy policy based upon the central idea of "Drill Here, Drill Now" is a sham. I'll concede that we need increased domestic production... but it won't even come close to having an effect.

09-10-2008, 03:39 PM	#8
MnJetFan All League Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,302	[QUOTE=bitonti;2742419]we cant drill our way to lower prices or energy independence or even come close don't need a big chart to figure that out the numbers just don't add up[/QUOTE] Ok, lets not drill! Lets just wait till gas hits 10bucks and the country goes into a depression then what!

09-10-2008, 03:40 PM	#9
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	Right, drilling for oil is a mere drop in the bucket, but it certainly can't hurt. Why not push for a little extra in the reserves? It'll create some more work for the country's oilmen too, as long as that job hasn't been outsourced to illegal immigrants yet. LOL at the image source, btw. I held the cursor over the thread title on the politics board and the first thing I see come up is [url]www.treehugger.com[/url].

09-10-2008, 03:47 PM	#10
SDJETS Should be renamed SeaJets. Living large in WA now... Veteran Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,940	[QUOTE=pauliec;2742500]Right, drilling for oil is a mere drop in the bucket, but it certainly can't hurt. Why not push for a little extra in the reserves? It'll create some more work for the country's oilmen too, as long as that job hasn't been outsourced to illegal immigrants yet. LOL at the image source, btw. I held the cursor over the thread title on the politics board and the first thing I see come up is [url]www.treehugger.com[/url].[/QUOTE] Actually, it sure can hurt. If something has already been proven to not [I]help[/I], but does have the potential to really screw up other things, is it really worth pursuing? It has already been documented that offshore drilling will have [B]zero[/B] effect on gas prices (there are ever reports today coming out that the high price of gas, at the moment, has nothing to do with actual supply and demand). Sure, 25 years from now there might be a small change to gas prices because of offshore drilling, but by that time we'll be so screwed for many reasons, not least of which is the ones cited above of India and China's growing demand, that it won't matter at all... On the other hand, 25 years from now this country can be mass producing vehicles that need [B]zero[/B] gas and investing heavily in bio fuels, no longer needing to drill offshore. So let's see, we can chomp at the bit and demand more drilling, or we can actually take steps to make more drilling moot.

09-10-2008, 03:51 PM	#11
parafly so why side with anything? All Pro Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 6,280	So if the United States starts new offshore drilling TODAY, the oil produced from these actions will amount to 1.2% of our total oil usage by the year 2030. Sounds like a huge waste of time to me. We would be much wiser to devote more of our resources toward developing alternative energy. How much of a difference will 1.2% make 20 years from now? Not much...and most of that will be offset by the resources required to get this whole thing started in the first place.

09-10-2008, 03:52 PM	#12
nuu faaola All Pro Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 6,253	[QUOTE=SDJETS;2742515]Actually, it sure can hurt. If something has already been proven to not [I]help[/I], but does have the potential to really screw up other things, is it really worth pursuing? It has already been documented that offshore drilling will have [B]zero[/B] effect on gas prices (there are ever reports today coming out that the high price of gas, at the moment, has nothing to do with actual supply and demand). Sure, 25 years from now there might be a small change to gas prices because of offshore drilling, but by that time we'll be so screwed for many reasons, not least of which is the ones cited above of India and China's growing demand, that it won't matter at all... On the other hand, 25 years from now this country can be mass producing vehicles that need [B]zero[/B] gas and investing heavily in bio fuels, no longer needing to drill offshore. So let's see, we can chomp at the bit and demand more drilling, or we can actually take steps to make more drilling moot.[/QUOTE] In 25 years the amount of oil being consumed by India and China will have so far exceeded the miniscule new supply we'll have put online that the impact will be mere pennies per gallon, at most, versus wherever else it would have been by then. By which I mean, it will be something like $8 a gallon instead of $8.05. By all means, drill a little. But don't delude yourself into thinking its more than a miniscule part of a real solution. Oil is a limited resource, global demand is increasing exponentially, and the new supply out there is incremental at best. I don't mind some drilling --it can't really hurt-- but only if the agreement to allow it makes real investments in things that can at the very least rid our electric grid of dependence on oil.

09-10-2008, 03:53 PM	#13
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	[QUOTE=SDJETS;2742515] So let's see, we can chomp at the bit and demand more drilling, or we can actually take steps to make more drilling moot.[/QUOTE] Why can't we do both?

09-10-2008, 04:16 PM	#14
MnJetFan All League Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,302	[QUOTE=parafly;2742522]So if the United States starts new offshore drilling TODAY, the oil produced from these actions will amount to 1.2% of our total oil usage by the year 2030. Sounds like a huge waste of time to me. We would be much wiser to devote more of our resources toward developing alternative energy. How much of a difference will 1.2% make 20 years from now? Not much...and most of that will be offset by the resources required to get this whole thing started in the first place.[/QUOTE] The big difference is we will be using more of our own oil instead of buying from OPEC. That is the point.. Everyone wants wind turbines, (but not in my backyard), nuclear energy(not here), coal(to dirty) Tell me what then?

09-10-2008, 04:19 PM	#15
SanAntonio_JetFan Hall Of Fame Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5,481	Drilling and investing in alternative energy sources are not mutually exlusive. I don't know why people think that.

09-10-2008, 04:20 PM	#16
jetstream23 recovering from turf toe Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Phoenix, AZ (New Jets Stadium Section 246) Posts: 31,551	[QUOTE=bigalbarracuda;2742406][IMG]http://www.treehugger.com/offshore-oil-drilling.jpg[/IMG] Discuss[/QUOTE] A part of the solution. Not [I]thee[/I] solution.

09-10-2008, 04:21 PM	#17
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=MnJetFan;2742497]Ok, lets not drill! Lets just wait till gas hits 10bucks and the country goes into a depression then what![/QUOTE] yeah but that's the point - it doesn't matter if we drill or not, if gas is gonna hit 10 dollars it's gonna hit 10 dollars.

09-10-2008, 04:21 PM	#18
Winstonbiggs Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 12,909	Where does natural gas fit in the equation?

09-10-2008, 04:22 PM	#19
jetstream23 recovering from turf toe Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Phoenix, AZ (New Jets Stadium Section 246) Posts: 31,551	[QUOTE=SanAntonio_JetFan;2742574]Drilling and investing in alternative energy sources are not mutually exlusive. I don't know why people think that.[/QUOTE] Idiots think they are mutually exclusive and then use someone's support of drilling to say they must be against alt. energies. It's like saying, do you want a good running game on offense or a strong passing game? If someone says they want the Jets to have a better running game this year that DOES NOT mean they're against throwing the ball. The end game is scoring points and you need to do both. The end game in energy is lower prices and sustainable supply. You drill for more oil and support alternative energies to accomplish this.

09-10-2008, 04:23 PM	#20
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=jetstream23;2742577]A part of the solution. Not [I]thee[/I] solution.[/QUOTE] If the demand rises faster than supply, then more drilling is not even a part of the solution why is it so hard for people to understand the basic fundementals? It's like as Americans we expect cheap gas as a right. those days are gone forever and they aren't coming back.