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PlumberKhan · 12-12-2008, 06:57 AM

[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2906580]As opposed to a party that is in the pockets of the unions and wants to pass a bailout bill that isn't deserved?[/QUOTE]

Allrighty...if the first thing a minority Republican Party wants to do is solidify a united front that is actively pursuing the cause of lowering American workers wages...so be it.

I mean...if that's what they really want. I just don't know how that will play out with the "Joe Plumber" middle Americans they pride themselves on so much for representing. What's the most important issue on Republicans minds today? Cutting average Americans paychecks while overseeing the biggest handout to financial companies....NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

chicadeel · 12-12-2008, 07:15 AM

$40,000 in 2000 had the same buying power as $50,300 in 2008.

[URL="http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm"]http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm[/URL]

If we continually see the attempt to lower wages or create lower paying jobs what eventually will happen?

BrooklynBound · 12-12-2008, 07:46 AM

[QUOTE=cr726;2906932]I agree with what you have posted here. How can a consumption based economy survive if there is not enough jobs that pay well enough to keep on consuming. In the long run it can't last.[/QUOTE]

Why do we have to be a consumption based economy? It's not balanced. Whatever happened to capital savings?

Our politicians push cheap credit on us, and we buy more than we can afford. We don't save enough for retirement. Real growth comes through capital savings. Imaginary growth comes through Fed and Treasury induced credit injections, currency debasement, and inflation.

BrooklynBound · 12-12-2008, 07:46 AM

[QUOTE=chicadeel;2907049]$40,000 in 2000 had the same buying power as $50,300 in 2008.

[URL="http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm"]http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm[/URL]

If we continually see the attempt to lower wages or create lower paying jobs what eventually will happen?[/QUOTE]
You're only looking at one side of the story. What about inflation?

BrooklynBound · 12-12-2008, 07:48 AM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2907047]Allrighty...if the first thing a minority Republican Party wants to do is solidify a united front that is actively pursuing the cause of lowering American workers wages...so be it.

I mean...if that's what they really want. I just don't know how that will play out with the "Joe Plumber" middle Americans they pride themselves on so much for representing. What's the most important issue on Republicans minds today? Cutting average Americans paychecks while overseeing the biggest handout to financial companies....NO QUESTIONS ASKED.[/QUOTE]

Both parties are terrible (see my sig) so you are not going to get me to defend either - just to simply point out the shortcomings of both.

Being anti-union is about freeing up capital markets. Unions are good for the people who are in it and keep their jobs and bad for everyone else. People have a right to assemble, but the government should not get involved.

BrooklynBound · 12-12-2008, 07:50 AM

[QUOTE=CTM;2906921]This is a really complicated issue that I think is being over-simplified..

If American companies need to outsource good paying jobs to cheap foreign labor in order to compete, at what point do American citizens no longer make enough money to buy all the **** they're trying to sell??

Actually, maybe it happened about 15 years ago, but luckily all these new debt instruments were available to allow us to outspend our earnings..[/QUOTE]

The thing is, you can't stop globalization. If something cannot be made or done efficiently or at a lower cost than somewhere else, it shouldn't be done. Companies shouldn't be around to lose money. (Actually, in the US they do - because they are "too big to fail.") The only people who the US allows to lose money are the average Americans through inflation.

Luckily, our debt has allowed us to outspend our earnings? Why is that a good thing? It's the primary reason we are in this mess.

PlumberKhan · 12-12-2008, 08:36 AM

[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2907057]Being anti-union is about freeing up capital markets. Unions are good for the people who are in it and keep their jobs and bad for everyone else. People have a right to assemble, but the government should not get involved.[/QUOTE]

I guess we have two ways at looking at the employer/employee relationship in this country.

Boiled down and in-eloquently put:

1.) Employees should be happy they have jobs and companies to work for.

2.) Employers should be happy they have a skilled labor pool to draw from.

Without employers, workers would not have paychecks with which to purchase sh*t and provide for their families.

Without employees, companies wouldn't have the manpower to produce sh*t in which to make money for shareholders and company owners.

CTM · 12-12-2008, 01:42 PM

[quote]
Luckily, our debt has allowed us to outspend our earnings? Why is that a good thing? It's the primary reason we are in this mess.[/QUOTE]
You need to fix your sarcasm detector...

CTM · 12-12-2008, 01:44 PM

[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2907056]You're only looking at one side of the story. What about inflation?[/QUOTE]

That is an inflation calculator????

chicadeel · 12-12-2008, 06:01 PM

[QUOTE=CTM;2907535]That is an inflation calculator????[/QUOTE]

From the site-

[QUOTE]About the CPI inflation calculator

The CPI inflation calculator uses the average Consumer Price Index for a given calendar year. This data represents changes in prices of all goods and services purchased for consumption by urban households. This index value has been calculated every year since 1913. For the current year, the latest monthly index value is used.[/QUOTE]

chesapeakejet · 12-13-2008, 11:27 AM

GUYS!!! ALL OF THESE ECONOMIC WOES, WALL STREET, THE BIG 3, THE UNION WORKERS COMES DOWN TO ONE THING!!!! UNMITIGATED GREED! Now it's time for them to step up and no one wants to do it.

The US Govt shot themselves in the foot by giving $ to Wall Street and not asking them to comeup with a restructuring plan and making them drive to Washington instead of flying.

You all know what the perception is by the Union Workers, I don't think I need to spell it out for ya.

BrooklynBound · 12-13-2008, 07:43 PM

[QUOTE=chicadeel;2908000]From the site-[/QUOTE]

Which is totally bogus since many government cost of living pension adjustments are based on CPI.. so you know it will be lower than actuality

jetstream23 · 12-14-2008, 05:37 AM

The problem with U.S. automakers is more in the lack of flexibility and efficiency in their production capabilities. The Japanese plan ahead, the American automakers react and start from scratch when a major market shift takes place!

[QUOTE]How long does it take the Japanese automaker to go from making, say, an SUV to a different model of car — on the same line in the same assembly plant? A stunning [B]5 minutes[/B], according to a Wall Street Journal report. And how much does it cost? [B]Absolutely nothing[/B], thanks to the use of modular robots that can be quickly adapted.By comparison, [B]it takes Ford a whopping 13 months and a staggering $75 million to make a similar change at one plant[/B].[/QUOTE]

[url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122211673953564349.html[/url]

BrooklynBound · 12-14-2008, 01:09 PM

[QUOTE=jetstream23;2909073]The problem with U.S. automakers is more in the lack of flexibility and efficiency in their production capabilities. The Japanese plan ahead, the American automakers react and start from scratch when a major market shift takes place!

[url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122211673953564349.html[/url][/QUOTE]

But robots kill jobs! We must preserve every current job for the future. Economies don't change.

jetstream23 · 12-15-2008, 02:56 AM

[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2909471]But robots kill jobs! We must preserve every current job for the future. Economies don't change.[/QUOTE]

I agree. If Obama employs one piece of earth-moving equipment during his infrastructure projects rather than having 4,000 guys with shovels he should be impeached for being against the "American worker."

PlumberKhan · 12-15-2008, 06:24 AM

[QUOTE=jetstream23;2912274]I agree. If Obama employs one piece of earth-moving equipment during his infrastructure projects rather than having 4,000 guys with shovels he should be impeached for being against the "American worker."[/QUOTE]

I can see you have never been to a union jobsite before.

BTW...the real reason there are less robotic in US factories has less to do with union resistance and more to do with the fact that in order to mechanize a factory, a substantial initial investment is needed and US shareholders were not willing to take the loss on investment that would happen during the first few years...but the Japs were.

12-12-2008, 06:57 AM	#41
PlumberKhan BRACE YOURSELVES FOR 12... Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,013	[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2906580]As opposed to a party that is in the pockets of the unions and wants to pass a bailout bill that isn't deserved?[/QUOTE] Allrighty...if the first thing a minority Republican Party wants to do is solidify a united front that is actively pursuing the cause of lowering American workers wages...so be it. I mean...if that's what they really want. I just don't know how that will play out with the "Joe Plumber" middle Americans they pride themselves on so much for representing. What's the most important issue on Republicans minds today? Cutting average Americans paychecks while overseeing the biggest handout to financial companies....NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

12-12-2008, 07:15 AM	#42
chicadeel All Pro Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,234	$40,000 in 2000 had the same buying power as $50,300 in 2008. [URL="http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm"]http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm[/URL] If we continually see the attempt to lower wages or create lower paying jobs what eventually will happen?

12-12-2008, 07:46 AM	#43
BrooklynBound Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15,550	[QUOTE=cr726;2906932]I agree with what you have posted here. How can a consumption based economy survive if there is not enough jobs that pay well enough to keep on consuming. In the long run it can't last.[/QUOTE] Why do we have to be a consumption based economy? It's not balanced. Whatever happened to capital savings? Our politicians push cheap credit on us, and we buy more than we can afford. We don't save enough for retirement. Real growth comes through capital savings. Imaginary growth comes through Fed and Treasury induced credit injections, currency debasement, and inflation.

12-12-2008, 07:48 AM	#45
BrooklynBound Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15,550	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2907047]Allrighty...if the first thing a minority Republican Party wants to do is solidify a united front that is actively pursuing the cause of lowering American workers wages...so be it. I mean...if that's what they really want. I just don't know how that will play out with the "Joe Plumber" middle Americans they pride themselves on so much for representing. What's the most important issue on Republicans minds today? Cutting average Americans paychecks while overseeing the biggest handout to financial companies....NO QUESTIONS ASKED.[/QUOTE] Both parties are terrible (see my sig) so you are not going to get me to defend either - just to simply point out the shortcomings of both. Being anti-union is about freeing up capital markets. Unions are good for the people who are in it and keep their jobs and bad for everyone else. People have a right to assemble, but the government should not get involved.

12-12-2008, 07:50 AM	#46
BrooklynBound Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15,550	[QUOTE=CTM;2906921]This is a really complicated issue that I think is being over-simplified.. If American companies need to outsource good paying jobs to cheap foreign labor in order to compete, at what point do American citizens no longer make enough money to buy all the **** they're trying to sell?? Actually, maybe it happened about 15 years ago, but luckily all these new debt instruments were available to allow us to outspend our earnings..[/QUOTE] The thing is, you can't stop globalization. If something cannot be made or done efficiently or at a lower cost than somewhere else, it shouldn't be done. Companies shouldn't be around to lose money. (Actually, in the US they do - because they are "too big to fail.") The only people who the US allows to lose money are the average Americans through inflation. Luckily, our debt has allowed us to outspend our earnings? Why is that a good thing? It's the primary reason we are in this mess.

12-12-2008, 08:36 AM	#47
PlumberKhan BRACE YOURSELVES FOR 12... Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,013	[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2907057]Being anti-union is about freeing up capital markets. Unions are good for the people who are in it and keep their jobs and bad for everyone else. People have a right to assemble, but the government should not get involved.[/QUOTE] I guess we have two ways at looking at the employer/employee relationship in this country. Boiled down and in-eloquently put: 1.) Employees should be happy they have jobs and companies to work for. 2.) Employers should be happy they have a skilled labor pool to draw from. Without employers, workers would not have paychecks with which to purchase sht and provide for their families. Without employees, companies wouldn't have the manpower to produce sht in which to make money for shareholders and company owners.

12-12-2008, 01:42 PM	#48
CTM Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Not bababooey and I resent the implication Posts: 21,029	[quote] Luckily, our debt has allowed us to outspend our earnings? Why is that a good thing? It's the primary reason we are in this mess.[/QUOTE] You need to fix your sarcasm detector...

12-12-2008, 01:44 PM	#49
CTM Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Not bababooey and I resent the implication Posts: 21,029	[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2907056]You're only looking at one side of the story. What about inflation?[/QUOTE] That is an inflation calculator????

12-12-2008, 06:01 PM	#50
chicadeel All Pro Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,234	[QUOTE=CTM;2907535]That is an inflation calculator????[/QUOTE] From the site- [QUOTE]About the CPI inflation calculator The CPI inflation calculator uses the average Consumer Price Index for a given calendar year. This data represents changes in prices of all goods and services purchased for consumption by urban households. This index value has been calculated every year since 1913. For the current year, the latest monthly index value is used.[/QUOTE]

12-13-2008, 11:27 AM	#51
chesapeakejet is a geek who loves football boardgames. Schluberator & Gadfly ® Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 24,502	GUYS!!! ALL OF THESE ECONOMIC WOES, WALL STREET, THE BIG 3, THE UNION WORKERS COMES DOWN TO ONE THING!!!! UNMITIGATED GREED! Now it's time for them to step up and no one wants to do it. The US Govt shot themselves in the foot by giving $ to Wall Street and not asking them to comeup with a restructuring plan and making them drive to Washington instead of flying. You all know what the perception is by the Union Workers, I don't think I need to spell it out for ya.

12-13-2008, 07:43 PM	#52
BrooklynBound Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15,550	[QUOTE=chicadeel;2908000]From the site-[/QUOTE] Which is totally bogus since many government cost of living pension adjustments are based on CPI.. so you know it will be lower than actuality

12-14-2008, 05:37 AM	#53
jetstream23 recovering from turf toe Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Phoenix, AZ (New Jets Stadium Section 246) Posts: 31,551	The problem with U.S. automakers is more in the lack of flexibility and efficiency in their production capabilities. The Japanese plan ahead, the American automakers react and start from scratch when a major market shift takes place! [QUOTE]How long does it take the Japanese automaker to go from making, say, an SUV to a different model of car — on the same line in the same assembly plant? A stunning [B]5 minutes[/B], according to a Wall Street Journal report. And how much does it cost? [B]Absolutely nothing[/B], thanks to the use of modular robots that can be quickly adapted.By comparison, [B]it takes Ford a whopping 13 months and a staggering $75 million to make a similar change at one plant[/B].[/QUOTE] [url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122211673953564349.html[/url]

12-14-2008, 01:09 PM	#54
BrooklynBound Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15,550	[QUOTE=jetstream23;2909073]The problem with U.S. automakers is more in the lack of flexibility and efficiency in their production capabilities. The Japanese plan ahead, the American automakers react and start from scratch when a major market shift takes place! [url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122211673953564349.html[/url][/QUOTE] But robots kill jobs! We must preserve every current job for the future. Economies don't change.

12-15-2008, 02:56 AM	#55
jetstream23 recovering from turf toe Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Phoenix, AZ (New Jets Stadium Section 246) Posts: 31,551	[QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2909471]But robots kill jobs! We must preserve every current job for the future. Economies don't change.[/QUOTE] I agree. If Obama employs one piece of earth-moving equipment during his infrastructure projects rather than having 4,000 guys with shovels he should be impeached for being against the "American worker."

12-15-2008, 06:24 AM	#56
PlumberKhan BRACE YOURSELVES FOR 12... Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,013	[QUOTE=jetstream23;2912274]I agree. If Obama employs one piece of earth-moving equipment during his infrastructure projects rather than having 4,000 guys with shovels he should be impeached for being against the "American worker."[/QUOTE] I can see you have never been to a union jobsite before. BTW...the real reason there are less robotic in US factories has less to do with union resistance and more to do with the fact that in order to mechanize a factory, a substantial initial investment is needed and US shareholders were not willing to take the loss on investment that would happen during the first few years...but the Japs were.