Israel attacks on Gaza kill 200 + - Page 6

JetsFan2012 · 12-29-2008, 11:11 AM

I ask this question because I really, honestly, do not know the answer: Can peace ever be attainable between Israelis and Palestinians? And if so, how do they achieve that peace? What's the solution?

asuusa · 12-29-2008, 11:12 AM

[QUOTE]Two laboratories in the university, which served as research and development centers for Hamas's military wing, were targeted. The development of explosives was done under the auspices of university professors.

University buildings were also used for meetings of senior Hamas officials.

The IDF said rockets and explosives were stored in the buildings. [/QUOTE]

[url=http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230111723191&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull]more[/url]

doggin94it · 12-29-2008, 11:26 AM

[quote=Jetdawgg;2939759]I first of all don't think that she is a nut job. I think that there is a population of people fed up in the world with the aggressive overtures and the nature of what has been transpiring in Palestine by Israel.

To be critical of Israel is not wrong. Hell, I criticize the USA gov't and have sworn to defend it with my life. Wrong is wrong and I think that the Israeli position is extreme.

If they are not doing this for votes it clearly has the appearance for this to be happening.

To think that Israel does not advance false flag operations is unrealistic. The USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair and perhaps even the Marine Barracks Bombing in 1983 can show that Israel can advance those operations.

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair[/URL]

[URL]http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html[/URL]

id=waOc_MDIAWMC&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=marine+captain+stops+idf&source=web&ots=HX7bgAX1rL&sig=buufqvTJjdw5FluIOVOG2mFn7HE#PPA64,M1[/quote]

:rolleyes:

Like I said, it says what it says about you that you quote this stuff. No real point in discussing it further.

doggin94it · 12-29-2008, 11:31 AM

[quote=pauliec;2939776]I ask this question because I really, honestly, do not know the answer: Can peace ever be attainable between Israelis and Palestinians? And if so, how do they achieve that peace? What's the solution?[/quote]

Is it possible? Yes, I think so. Are conditions conducive to it right now (or as long as Hamas is in power)? I doubt it.

That said, I think the best path to peace is to make an immediate final status offer that includes both maximums and minimums - i.e., here's the deal, xyz pieces of land, joint sovereignty over jerusalem, etc., and for each further palestinian attack, the Palestinians give up something (i.e. first attack, Jerusalem reverts to the sole sovereignty of Israel and Palestinians give up all claim to it. Second attack, Palestinians give up another piece of land, and so on down to a minimum (i.e. palestinian state in Gaza and a small portion of the west bank, including ramallah and jericho).

That would either result in actual piece or at least end the "whose land is it" arguments - either way, a boon to Israel.

Jetdawgg · 12-29-2008, 11:32 AM

[QUOTE=doggin94it;2939841]:rolleyes:

Like I said, it says what it says about you that you quote this stuff. No real point in discussing it further.[/QUOTE]

Like you, I am not alone with my thoughts

JetsFan2012 · 12-29-2008, 11:33 AM

[QUOTE=doggin94it;2939859]Is it possible? Yes, I think so. Are conditions conducive to it right now (or as long as Hamas is in power)? I doubt it.

That said, I think the best path to peace is to make an immediate final status offer that includes both maximums and minimums - i.e., here's the deal, xyz pieces of land, joint sovereignty over jerusalem, etc., and for each further palestinian attack, the Palestinians give up something (i.e. first attack, Jerusalem reverts to the sole sovereignty of Israel and Palestinians give up all claim to it. Second attack, Palestinians give up another piece of land, and so on down to a minimum (i.e. palestinian state in Gaza and a small portion of the west bank, including ramallah and jericho).

That would either result in actual piece or at least end the "whose land is it" arguments - either way, a boon to Israel.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I'm wrong, but that doesn't seem like a solution the Palestinians would readily agree to.

doggin94it · 12-29-2008, 11:45 AM

[quote=pauliec;2939867]Maybe I'm wrong, but that doesn't seem like a solution the Palestinians would readily agree to.[/quote]

Maybe not. But since land for peace needs to mean land for peace, and not "land for slightly less war conducted by Palestinians who disagree with the particular peace deal we signed rather than by the Palestinian government", there are only two real options that I can see:

1) The Palestinians end their war entirely before receiving anything, whereupon the Israelis trust them enough to take them at their word; or

2) The Israelis front their end of the deal - the land - with guarantees that if they do not receive the peace the land is supposed to be buying, they get a "refund."

doggin94it · 12-29-2008, 11:51 AM

[quote=Jetdawgg;2939759]

To be critical of Israel is not wrong. Hell, I criticize the USA gov't and have sworn to defend it with my life. Wrong is wrong and I think that the Israeli position is extreme.

[/quote]

BTW, to be clear, I agree with this. Not the conclusion that Israel is wrong in this, but that you have every right to be critical of Israel if you disagree.

Jetdawgg · 12-29-2008, 12:56 PM

[QUOTE=doggin94it;2939952]BTW, to be clear, I agree with this. Not the conclusion that Israel is wrong in this, but that you have every right to be critical of Israel if you disagree.[/QUOTE]

No worries guy. This is a very complex issue and world leaders have not yet solved it so I don't think that the NY Jets discussion board will make it any better:yes:

Stan Blinka · 12-29-2008, 01:07 PM

It's only a matter of time until they destroy each other.

Lets see...3 years and Iran will have a Nuclear Bomb, probably try to use it against Israel and than Israel will retaliate and NUK half the Middle east and end the war for about 20 years until its rears its head again.

I wonder if there will be maps PRE NUK and POST NUK?:eek:

Ha Ha Ha · 12-29-2008, 01:17 PM

Whatever happened to the good old days of wars of conquest??

Israel declared independence, all her neighbors said sure, you got your independence, now we will attack you, and whoever wins, gets to stay. No one thought that being surrounded on all sides the Israeli's would win, but not only did they, they won BIG. And got a land as result of direct military victories after being attacked by her enemies. And in the 60 years since, Israel has been forced to fight more wars, concede more land, endure terrorism and on and on.

I mean, what happened to those days where the conqueror gets the land?

PlumberKhan · 12-29-2008, 01:20 PM

[QUOTE=pauliec;2939776]I ask this question because I really, honestly, do not know the answer: Can peace ever be attainable between Israelis and Palestinians? And if so, how do they achieve that peace? What's the solution?[/QUOTE]

Never. If there disagreements were simply rooted in a desire for acreage, like the US experienced during in it's expansion...sure, peace could eventually be achieved. But since both sides base their claims to the disputed land from ancient holy books and religion...it is a war of aggression that will never see an end until:

1.) One side is completely destroyed
2.) Both sides annihilate each other simultaneously
3.) God suddenly appears and picks a side (not likely since he tends to stay away from ridiculous blood feuds)
4.) They develop the technology to build a Point of View gun
5.) One side realizes that dying over a strip of desert is kind of stupid

Ha Ha Ha · 12-29-2008, 01:23 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2940332]Never. If there disagreements were simply rooted in a desire for acreage, like the US experienced during in it's expansion...sure, peace could eventually be achieved. But since both sides base their claims to the disputed land from ancient holy books and religion...it is a war of aggression that will never see an end until:

1.) One side is completely destroyed
2.) Both sides annihilate each other simultaneously
3.) God suddenly appears and picks a side (not likely since he tends to stay away from ridiculous blood feuds)
4.) They develop the technology to build a Point of View gun
5.) One side realizes that dying over a strip of desert is kind of stupid[/QUOTE]

:clapper::clapper::clapper:

SPOT ON! perfect answer......and quite funny! :D

JetsFan2012 · 12-29-2008, 01:39 PM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2940332]Never. If there disagreements were simply rooted in a desire for acreage, like the US experienced during in it's expansion...sure, peace could eventually be achieved. But since both sides base their claims to the disputed land from ancient holy books and religion...it is a war of aggression that will never see an end until:

1.) One side is completely destroyed
2.) Both sides annihilate each other simultaneously
3.) God suddenly appears and picks a side (not likely since he tends to stay away from ridiculous blood feuds)
4.) They develop the technology to build a Point of View gun
5.) One side realizes that dying over a strip of desert is kind of stupid[/QUOTE]

The only reason the US experienced peace during westward expansion was because we were going up against a bunch of Indians with bows and arrows. No contest there.

Israel and Palestine and very evenly-matched foes.

JetsFan2012 · 12-29-2008, 01:43 PM

By the way, if there ever was an argument against religion, you need to look no further than the bloodshed in that tiny little piece of land.

I am by no means against organized religion, but this ongoing feud really continues to give the whole deal a bad name.

fukushimajin · 12-29-2008, 02:04 PM

[QUOTE=pauliec;2940425]The only reason the US experienced peace during westward expansion was because we were going up against a bunch of Indians with bows and arrows. No contest there.
[B]
Israel and Palestine and very evenly-matched foes.[/B][/QUOTE]

Um, no. Israel has a larger/modern Airforce than every other nation in the middle east combined. I would be surprised if Palestine had even one plane. Israel has modern armored divisions I would be surprised if Hamas had more than a few Toyota Highlanders. Seriously.

JetsFan2012 · 12-29-2008, 02:16 PM

[QUOTE=fukushimajin;2940532]Um, no. Israel has a larger/modern Airforce than every other nation in the middle east combined. I would be surprised if Palestine had even one plane. Israel has modern armored divisions I would be surprised if Hamas had more than a few Toyota Highlanders. Seriously.[/QUOTE]

Then why don't they just bury them already?

doggin94it · 12-29-2008, 02:17 PM

[quote=fukushimajin;2940532]Um, no. Israel has a larger/modern Airforce than every other nation in the middle east combined. I would be surprised if Palestine had even one plane. Israel has modern armored divisions I would be surprised if Hamas had more than a few Toyota Highlanders. Seriously.[/quote]

correct. If Israel were interested in doing so, it could relatively quickly and easily kill most of the palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, and the Palestinians couldn't do a dman thing to prevent it

doggin94it · 12-29-2008, 02:19 PM

[quote=pauliec;2940581]The why don't they just bury them already?[/quote]

Because:

1) Israel isn't interested in doing that; and

2) Even if they were, the reaction of the world community to a genocide would not be pretty (not that that stopped the Rwandan genocide or what's going on in Darfur, but still)

JetsFan2012 · 12-29-2008, 02:20 PM

[QUOTE=doggin94it;2940601]Because:

1) Israel isn't interested in doing that; and

2) Even if they were, the reaction of the world community to a genocide would not be pretty (not that that stopped the Rwandan genocide or what's going on in Darfur, but still)[/QUOTE]

So this war will not end by force. That's for sure.

The only hope is for some kind of mutually agreed upon accord, which doesn't look like will happen anytime soon either.

So this goes back to my original question -- can peace ever be achieved?

12-29-2008, 11:12 AM	#102
asuusa All Pro Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,171	Why bomb a university? [QUOTE]Two laboratories in the university, which served as research and development centers for Hamas's military wing, were targeted. The development of explosives was done under the auspices of university professors. University buildings were also used for meetings of senior Hamas officials. The IDF said rockets and explosives were stored in the buildings. [/QUOTE] [url=http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230111723191&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull]more[/url]

12-29-2008, 02:16 PM	#117
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	[QUOTE=fukushimajin;2940532]Um, no. Israel has a larger/modern Airforce than every other nation in the middle east combined. I would be surprised if Palestine had even one plane. Israel has modern armored divisions I would be surprised if Hamas had more than a few Toyota Highlanders. Seriously.[/QUOTE] Then why don't they just bury them already? Last edited by JetsFan2012; 12-29-2008 at 02:19 PM.

12-29-2008, 11:11 AM	#101
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	I ask this question because I really, honestly, do not know the answer: Can peace ever be attainable between Israelis and Palestinians? And if so, how do they achieve that peace? What's the solution?

12-29-2008, 11:26 AM	#103
doggin94it Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,395	[quote=Jetdawgg;2939759]I first of all don't think that she is a nut job. I think that there is a population of people fed up in the world with the aggressive overtures and the nature of what has been transpiring in Palestine by Israel. To be critical of Israel is not wrong. Hell, I criticize the USA gov't and have sworn to defend it with my life. Wrong is wrong and I think that the Israeli position is extreme. If they are not doing this for votes it clearly has the appearance for this to be happening. To think that Israel does not advance false flag operations is unrealistic. The USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair and perhaps even the Marine Barracks Bombing in 1983 can show that Israel can advance those operations. [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair[/URL] [URL]http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html[/URL] id=waOc_MDIAWMC&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=marine+captain+stops+idf&source=web&ots=HX7bgAX1rL&sig=buufqvTJjdw5FluIOVOG2mFn7HE#PPA64,M1[/quote] :rolleyes: Like I said, it says what it says about you that you quote this stuff. No real point in discussing it further.

12-29-2008, 11:31 AM	#104
doggin94it Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,395	[quote=pauliec;2939776]I ask this question because I really, honestly, do not know the answer: Can peace ever be attainable between Israelis and Palestinians? And if so, how do they achieve that peace? What's the solution?[/quote] Is it possible? Yes, I think so. Are conditions conducive to it right now (or as long as Hamas is in power)? I doubt it. That said, I think the best path to peace is to make an immediate final status offer that includes both maximums and minimums - i.e., here's the deal, xyz pieces of land, joint sovereignty over jerusalem, etc., and for each further palestinian attack, the Palestinians give up something (i.e. first attack, Jerusalem reverts to the sole sovereignty of Israel and Palestinians give up all claim to it. Second attack, Palestinians give up another piece of land, and so on down to a minimum (i.e. palestinian state in Gaza and a small portion of the west bank, including ramallah and jericho). That would either result in actual piece or at least end the "whose land is it" arguments - either way, a boon to Israel.

12-29-2008, 11:32 AM	#105
Jetdawgg All Pro Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 6,687	[QUOTE=doggin94it;2939841]:rolleyes: Like I said, it says what it says about you that you quote this stuff. No real point in discussing it further.[/QUOTE] Like you, I am not alone with my thoughts

12-29-2008, 11:33 AM	#106
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	[QUOTE=doggin94it;2939859]Is it possible? Yes, I think so. Are conditions conducive to it right now (or as long as Hamas is in power)? I doubt it. That said, I think the best path to peace is to make an immediate final status offer that includes both maximums and minimums - i.e., here's the deal, xyz pieces of land, joint sovereignty over jerusalem, etc., and for each further palestinian attack, the Palestinians give up something (i.e. first attack, Jerusalem reverts to the sole sovereignty of Israel and Palestinians give up all claim to it. Second attack, Palestinians give up another piece of land, and so on down to a minimum (i.e. palestinian state in Gaza and a small portion of the west bank, including ramallah and jericho). That would either result in actual piece or at least end the "whose land is it" arguments - either way, a boon to Israel.[/QUOTE] Maybe I'm wrong, but that doesn't seem like a solution the Palestinians would readily agree to.

12-29-2008, 11:45 AM	#107
doggin94it Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,395	[quote=pauliec;2939867]Maybe I'm wrong, but that doesn't seem like a solution the Palestinians would readily agree to.[/quote] Maybe not. But since land for peace needs to mean land for peace, and not "land for slightly less war conducted by Palestinians who disagree with the particular peace deal we signed rather than by the Palestinian government", there are only two real options that I can see: 1) The Palestinians end their war entirely before receiving anything, whereupon the Israelis trust them enough to take them at their word; or 2) The Israelis front their end of the deal - the land - with guarantees that if they do not receive the peace the land is supposed to be buying, they get a "refund."

12-29-2008, 11:51 AM	#108
doggin94it Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,395	[quote=Jetdawgg;2939759] To be critical of Israel is not wrong. Hell, I criticize the USA gov't and have sworn to defend it with my life. Wrong is wrong and I think that the Israeli position is extreme. [/quote] BTW, to be clear, I agree with this. Not the conclusion that Israel is wrong in this, but that you have every right to be critical of Israel if you disagree.

12-29-2008, 12:56 PM	#109
Jetdawgg All Pro Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 6,687	[QUOTE=doggin94it;2939952]BTW, to be clear, I agree with this. Not the conclusion that Israel is wrong in this, but that you have every right to be critical of Israel if you disagree.[/QUOTE] No worries guy. This is a very complex issue and world leaders have not yet solved it so I don't think that the NY Jets discussion board will make it any better:yes:

12-29-2008, 01:07 PM	#110
Stan Blinka Strip Club in TAMPA time! All Pro Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Winter Springs, Fl Posts: 1,348	It's only a matter of time until they destroy each other. Lets see...3 years and Iran will have a Nuclear Bomb, probably try to use it against Israel and than Israel will retaliate and NUK half the Middle east and end the war for about 20 years until its rears its head again. I wonder if there will be maps PRE NUK and POST NUK?:eek:

12-29-2008, 01:17 PM	#111
Ha Ha Ha Board Moderator Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brooklyn Heights Posts: 2,459	Whatever happened to the good old days of wars of conquest?? Israel declared independence, all her neighbors said sure, you got your independence, now we will attack you, and whoever wins, gets to stay. No one thought that being surrounded on all sides the Israeli's would win, but not only did they, they won BIG. And got a land as result of direct military victories after being attacked by her enemies. And in the 60 years since, Israel has been forced to fight more wars, concede more land, endure terrorism and on and on. I mean, what happened to those days where the conqueror gets the land?

12-29-2008, 01:20 PM	#112
PlumberKhan BRACE YOURSELVES FOR 12... Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,013	[QUOTE=pauliec;2939776]I ask this question because I really, honestly, do not know the answer: Can peace ever be attainable between Israelis and Palestinians? And if so, how do they achieve that peace? What's the solution?[/QUOTE] Never. If there disagreements were simply rooted in a desire for acreage, like the US experienced during in it's expansion...sure, peace could eventually be achieved. But since both sides base their claims to the disputed land from ancient holy books and religion...it is a war of aggression that will never see an end until: 1.) One side is completely destroyed 2.) Both sides annihilate each other simultaneously 3.) God suddenly appears and picks a side (not likely since he tends to stay away from ridiculous blood feuds) 4.) They develop the technology to build a Point of View gun 5.) One side realizes that dying over a strip of desert is kind of stupid

12-29-2008, 01:23 PM	#113
Ha Ha Ha Board Moderator Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brooklyn Heights Posts: 2,459	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2940332]Never. If there disagreements were simply rooted in a desire for acreage, like the US experienced during in it's expansion...sure, peace could eventually be achieved. But since both sides base their claims to the disputed land from ancient holy books and religion...it is a war of aggression that will never see an end until: 1.) One side is completely destroyed 2.) Both sides annihilate each other simultaneously 3.) God suddenly appears and picks a side (not likely since he tends to stay away from ridiculous blood feuds) 4.) They develop the technology to build a Point of View gun 5.) One side realizes that dying over a strip of desert is kind of stupid[/QUOTE] :clapper::clapper::clapper: SPOT ON! perfect answer......and quite funny! :D

12-29-2008, 01:39 PM	#114
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2940332]Never. If there disagreements were simply rooted in a desire for acreage, like the US experienced during in it's expansion...sure, peace could eventually be achieved. But since both sides base their claims to the disputed land from ancient holy books and religion...it is a war of aggression that will never see an end until: 1.) One side is completely destroyed 2.) Both sides annihilate each other simultaneously 3.) God suddenly appears and picks a side (not likely since he tends to stay away from ridiculous blood feuds) 4.) They develop the technology to build a Point of View gun 5.) One side realizes that dying over a strip of desert is kind of stupid[/QUOTE] The only reason the US experienced peace during westward expansion was because we were going up against a bunch of Indians with bows and arrows. No contest there. Israel and Palestine and very evenly-matched foes.

12-29-2008, 01:43 PM	#115
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	By the way, if there ever was an argument against religion, you need to look no further than the bloodshed in that tiny little piece of land. I am by no means against organized religion, but this ongoing feud really continues to give the whole deal a bad name.

12-29-2008, 02:04 PM	#116
fukushimajin All Pro Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,130	[QUOTE=pauliec;2940425]The only reason the US experienced peace during westward expansion was because we were going up against a bunch of Indians with bows and arrows. No contest there. [B] Israel and Palestine and very evenly-matched foes.[/B][/QUOTE] Um, no. Israel has a larger/modern Airforce than every other nation in the middle east combined. I would be surprised if Palestine had even one plane. Israel has modern armored divisions I would be surprised if Hamas had more than a few Toyota Highlanders. Seriously.

12-29-2008, 02:17 PM	#118
doggin94it Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,395	[quote=fukushimajin;2940532]Um, no. Israel has a larger/modern Airforce than every other nation in the middle east combined. I would be surprised if Palestine had even one plane. Israel has modern armored divisions I would be surprised if Hamas had more than a few Toyota Highlanders. Seriously.[/quote] correct. If Israel were interested in doing so, it could relatively quickly and easily kill most of the palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, and the Palestinians couldn't do a dman thing to prevent it

12-29-2008, 02:19 PM	#119
doggin94it Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,395	[quote=pauliec;2940581]The why don't they just bury them already?[/quote] Because: 1) Israel isn't interested in doing that; and 2) Even if they were, the reaction of the world community to a genocide would not be pretty (not that that stopped the Rwandan genocide or what's going on in Darfur, but still)

12-29-2008, 02:20 PM	#120
JetsFan2012 Waterboy Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 0	[QUOTE=doggin94it;2940601]Because: 1) Israel isn't interested in doing that; and 2) Even if they were, the reaction of the world community to a genocide would not be pretty (not that that stopped the Rwandan genocide or what's going on in Darfur, but still)[/QUOTE] So this war will not end by force. That's for sure. The only hope is for some kind of mutually agreed upon accord, which doesn't look like will happen anytime soon either. So this goes back to my original question -- can peace ever be achieved?