Now I mentioned this yesterday and I was dogpiled. - Page 2

IHATEDOLPHINS · 08-03-2009, 08:12 PM

i'm rooting for whoever has a better camp/preseason if it's Clemens so be it

If Clemens is better by the time week 1 rolls around start him

el_dub80 · 08-03-2009, 08:21 PM

Kellen better be ahead of Mark otherwise we're all seriously screwed. :yes:

ARodFLKeysJetsFan · 08-03-2009, 08:22 PM

I think most people here realize that the Jets have alot invested in Sanchez and it's hard for me believe that anyone here wants him to fail.

I can't remember the last time the Jets made such an investment in the QB poistion to be honest with you.

Sanchez failing would have a negative impact on the franchise for years to come and again, I don't think anyone wants that.

If Clemens wins the competition and starts this year, and gives Sanchez a year to sit and watch, I don't think that would be indicative of Sanchez failing, I think that would be more of a natural progression.

We all know that Sanchez is going to be the face of this franchise for alot of years, I just don't think it's the smartest thing to do to throw him in the line-up as our starting QB if he is not clearly ready.

If he is ready and convincingly wins the starting job then so be it.

Mike D · 08-03-2009, 08:45 PM

[QUOTE=ARodFLKeysJetsFan;3197236]I think most people here realize that the Jets have alot invested in Sanchez and it's hard for me believe that anyone here wants him to fail.

I can't remember the last time the Jets made such an investment in the QB poistion to be honest with you.

[B]Sanchez failing would have a negative impact on the franchise for years to come and again, I don't think anyone wants that.[/B]

If Clemens wins the competition and starts this year, and gives Sanchez a year to sit and watch, I don't think that would be indicative of Sanchez failing, I think that would be more of a natural progression.

We all know that Sanchez is going to be the face of this franchise for alot of years, I just don't think it's the smartest thing to do to throw him in the line-up as our starting QB if he is not clearly ready.

If he is ready and convincingly wins the starting job then so be it.[/QUOTE]

Very good post.

With Flacco and Ryan both starting and being somewhat successful last year I think we all forget what can happen while throwing rookies into the fire year 1. Palmer sat and he turned out well (minus the injuries).

If Clemens wins the job, that's fine. But if he fails during the season and Sanchez isn't ready, it's going to be a very bad and long season.

32green · 08-03-2009, 09:16 PM

[QUOTE=SBIII;3197153]LOL serious? Did you ever see threads where every time you post you're being a dick.

ARod.. you post this trying to toot your own horn.[/QUOTE]

Lol teh irony oh my

flgreen · 08-03-2009, 09:25 PM

Agree with Mike D and A Rod.

Sanchez also knows that no matter what happens this year, he will be with the Jets, and at the least will still be competing for the starting job next year.

Clemens knows it is very unlikely he will be here next season, and he doesn’t know what his status in the league will be. This is his time to audition for a chance to start somewhere else next year. If he has a very successful season, he could be a hot FA next year. If Sanchez slaps him aside in camp, he isn’t even guaranteed to be in the NFL. Probably will be, but you never know.

From what I have been reading Clemens has been moving the team very well, then throwing the bone head pick. It’s a lot to ask, but if he can stop making the stupid mistakes I think he can be more then a mediocre QB.

I would love to see Sanchez step up and become the QB he has the potential to be, but I’ll be good with Clemens.

If it is Clemens I just hope it is because he is playing well, and not because Sanchez looks lost.

One Eye · 08-03-2009, 09:32 PM

I think its been pretty obvious from the reports what is going on with the QB battle.

Simply put, Clemens has look more like the seasoned vet than Sanchez. He has a better command of the offense, which is to be expected after 3 years in it.

However, it is also obvious from all the reports that Sanchez looks the part better. He is everything you want your QB to be, except tall and experienced.

I think Clemens SHOULD win the QB battle but if Sanchez turns it up and picks up the nuances quicker than expected, I dont think Clemens has a chance.

Just my 2 cents.

simijet · 08-03-2009, 10:08 PM

[QUOTE=One Eye;3197313]I think its been pretty obvious from the reports what is going on with the QB battle.

Simply put, Clemens has look more like the seasoned vet than Sanchez. He has a better command of the offense, which is to be expected after 3 years in it.

However, it is also obvious from all the reports that Sanchez looks the part better. He is everything you want your QB to be, [B][COLOR="Red"]except [/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR="Red"][COLOR="Red"]tall [/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]and experienced.

I think Clemens SHOULD win the QB battle but if Sanchez turns it up and picks up the nuances quicker than expected, I dont think Clemens has a chance.

Just my 2 cents.[/QUOTE]

I know this has been covered ad nauseum, but he's 6'2"!!! Nothing at all wrong with his height.

One Eye · 08-03-2009, 10:30 PM

[QUOTE=simijet;3197355]I know this has been covered ad nauseum, but he's 6'2"!!! Nothing at all wrong with his height.[/QUOTE]

Understood, but he is not your prototypical QB height. That's all I was saying. I do not think his height is going to be a factor in his performance.

Dirtstar · 08-03-2009, 10:53 PM

[QUOTE=ARodFLKeysJetsFan;3197236]I think most people here realize that the Jets have alot invested in Sanchez and it's hard for me believe that anyone here wants him to fail.

I can't remember the last time the Jets made such an investment in the QB poistion to be honest with you.

Sanchez failing would have a negative impact on the franchise for years to come and again, I don't think anyone wants that.

If Clemens wins the competition and starts this year, and gives Sanchez a year to sit and watch, I don't think that would be indicative of Sanchez failing, I think that would be more of a natural progression.

We all know that Sanchez is going to be the face of this franchise for alot of years, I just don't think it's the smartest thing to do to throw him in the line-up as our starting QB if he is not clearly ready.

If he is ready and convincingly wins the starting job then so be it.[/QUOTE]

:eek:

spoken like a true Clemmonolgist heathen.

you will burn in Mexican hell for disrespecting teh Sanchize :mad:

ListerFiend · 08-03-2009, 11:23 PM

[quote]If Clemens can curtail his lapses and avoid bad breaks, he may easily win the job.[/quote]

thats kind of a huge if....

JumbalayaJet · 08-04-2009, 12:31 AM

There were other needs to address in the draft, so I hope Sanchez proves his worth right off the bat. As for him coming in later during the season, that'll only happen in the case of injury, or team failure. I wasn't impressed with Clemens, but that doesn't mean he can't improve with experience. If he becomes the choice, he probably always will be. In that case it was a bad draft. I still agree that if he's better he should play.

sg3 · 08-04-2009, 05:46 AM

ok, here is my opinion

There is no competition

THE SAN-CHIZE will be starting on opening day and for the next ten seasons for the NYJ

Ryan Boru · 08-04-2009, 06:03 AM

[QUOTE=simijet;3197355]I know this has been covered ad nauseum, but he's 6'2"!!! Nothing at all wrong with his height.[/QUOTE]

6'2'' is nothing special height wise. Good QBs at that height or lower tend to be outstanding in other areas. Favre is that height and has a cannon arm. Brees is shorter and has a quicker release and more mobility, in my opinion. Flutie and Young were shorter but they were also faster and had stronger arms. It all has to add up, if your just average in one thing your have to be above average in something else to make up for it. Time will tell.

DBAKE · 08-04-2009, 06:35 AM

they can act all they want to act like this is a competition but its not. clemens would have to be knocking it out of the park....and by that i mean, long drives, NO TURNOVERS!!, and have total team support. thats not the case. yes he might be winning at this point with sanchez only being here for a few weeks but it will not last. you can read between the lines to figure out rex, woody etc want sanchez to win and he will. sanchez starts game 1.

petejet · 08-04-2009, 08:31 AM

[url]http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9887724/Fights-break-out-at-Jets-camp;-coach-happy?[/url]

"In a competition that has been just about even through the first four days of camp, Clemens is going to need more than luck to win the starting job. He has thrown six interceptions during 11-on-11 drills in six practices.

"I've put the entire competition in the coaches' hands," said Clemens, who has worked with the first-team offense for all but one practice session."

GreenJoe · 08-04-2009, 08:47 AM

Will it be cool if Sanchez wins the competition outright? YES.

Would it be better if Clemens started the season so Sanchez could learn? Absolutely.

Would it be better for the franchise if Clemens did really well? Of Course.

Why on earth do people use camp INT tallies from the first 5 days of camp to bash someone (Clemens) who works hard, is trying to get better, and is the ultimate team player; a guy who graciously stepped aside for Favre and who knows he's doomed when Sanchez comes in?

I have no freaking idea. Some of you go out of your way to smear Clemens stats toward saying he's a pile of dog sh!t. He's not great right now, but some of you don't even want him to succeed and its obvious. Classless, brainless, and pathetic. A Jets Fan should WANT HIM to do well and should support what he DOES WELL (throwing on the run, ability to rifle a pass on 2nd or 3rd and long, ability to scramble in a broken play). The guy has done nothing but give 120% of his heart and effort to a team that doesn't really want him to start.

doggin94it · 08-04-2009, 09:19 AM

Ah, summer. What would a Jets(insider) TC be without ARod prematurely patting himself on the back for something? *coughadrienclarkewillbefinecough*

Seriously, ARod, grow up. We'll eventually know whether Clemens can hold onto the job (best for the team if he can, IMO, so I hope he does). But 4 days into TC isn't the time to make that call, let alone throw up the self-indulgent cry for attention that is this "everyone jumped on me but look, someone else agrees with me so there" thread.

Warfish · 08-04-2009, 09:20 AM

[QUOTE=ARodFLKeysJetsFan;3197127]Come one, come all and give your opinions on the QB competition thus far.[/QUOTE]

My reading of the various media, Twitheads and Sundry is:

--Media Bias is heavily in favor of The Franchez.
--Fan bias is MASSIVELY in favor of The Franchez
--Actual play on the field is moderate-to-strongly in favor of Clemens.

Clemens is still, even though it IS camp (a time to work out kinks and get your feel together), throwing too many INT's. Other than that (and it's a big deal if it comtinues) Clemens seems quite sharp, in command of the O, and doing quite well. But the INT's need to stop.

The Franchez, from the reports I read (with the various propaganda removed) is playing as one would expect a rookie with only 16 career college starts for a stunningly great college team who every week had superior talent at almost every spot....that is, like a fish out of water, making rookie mistakes, freezing when his guy isn'y open by 15 yeards, holding the ball too long, etc, etc, etc.

Based on the VERY limited data thus far, Clemens is winning hands down.

[U][B]Disclaimer:[/B][/U] As I always say, this is all speculation and interpritation till we get to see these gusy play live-ball for ourselves. I never like taking my opinions from a bunch of twitheads reports, and teh always questionable reporting (and omitting) of our "media". So opinions can, will and should change once we start seeing pre-season games played.

ARodFLKeysJetsFan · 08-04-2009, 11:03 AM

[QUOTE=doggin94it;3197636]Ah, summer. What would a Jets(insider) TC be without ARod prematurely patting himself on the back for something? *coughadrienclarkewillbefinecough*

Seriously, ARod, grow up. We'll eventually know whether Clemens can hold onto the job (best for the team if he can, IMO, so I hope he does). But 4 days into TC isn't the time to make that call, let alone throw up the self-indulgent cry for attention that is this "everyone jumped on me but look, someone else agrees with me so there" thread.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like your pus$y hurts brother.

If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it.

Other than that, :upyours: take that with you snapper.

08-03-2009, 08:22 PM	#23
ARodFLKeysJetsFan Jets GM John Idzik is handling business.... Hall Of Fame Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Currently Norfolk, VA.... Posts: 18,325	I think most people here realize that the Jets have alot invested in Sanchez and it's hard for me believe that anyone here wants him to fail. I can't remember the last time the Jets made such an investment in the QB poistion to be honest with you. Sanchez failing would have a negative impact on the franchise for years to come and again, I don't think anyone wants that. If Clemens wins the competition and starts this year, and gives Sanchez a year to sit and watch, I don't think that would be indicative of Sanchez failing, I think that would be more of a natural progression. We all know that Sanchez is going to be the face of this franchise for alot of years, I just don't think it's the smartest thing to do to throw him in the line-up as our starting QB if he is not clearly ready. If he is ready and convincingly wins the starting job then so be it. Last edited by ARodFLKeysJetsFan; 08-03-2009 at 08:25 PM.

08-04-2009, 11:03 AM	#40
ARodFLKeysJetsFan Jets GM John Idzik is handling business.... Hall Of Fame Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Currently Norfolk, VA.... Posts: 18,325	[QUOTE=doggin94it;3197636]Ah, summer. What would a Jets(insider) TC be without ARod prematurely patting himself on the back for something? coughadrienclarkewillbefinecough Seriously, ARod, grow up. We'll eventually know whether Clemens can hold onto the job (best for the team if he can, IMO, so I hope he does). But 4 days into TC isn't the time to make that call, let alone throw up the self-indulgent cry for attention that is this "everyone jumped on me but look, someone else agrees with me so there" thread.[/QUOTE] Sounds like your pus$y hurts brother. If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it. Other than that, :upyours: take that with you snapper. Last edited by ARodFLKeysJetsFan; 08-04-2009 at 11:07 AM.

08-03-2009, 08:12 PM	#21
IHATEDOLPHINS growing tired of rex ryan All League Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,028	i'm rooting for whoever has a better camp/preseason if it's Clemens so be it If Clemens is better by the time week 1 rolls around start him

08-03-2009, 08:21 PM	#22
el_dub80 With the 1st pick of the 2014 draft, the NY Jets select ... All Pro Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 6,294	Kellen better be ahead of Mark otherwise we're all seriously screwed. :yes:

08-03-2009, 08:45 PM	#24
Mike D 2-14 here we come!! And I couldn't be happier about it!! All Pro Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Sunrise, FL Posts: 9,914	[QUOTE=ARodFLKeysJetsFan;3197236]I think most people here realize that the Jets have alot invested in Sanchez and it's hard for me believe that anyone here wants him to fail. I can't remember the last time the Jets made such an investment in the QB poistion to be honest with you. [B]Sanchez failing would have a negative impact on the franchise for years to come and again, I don't think anyone wants that.[/B] If Clemens wins the competition and starts this year, and gives Sanchez a year to sit and watch, I don't think that would be indicative of Sanchez failing, I think that would be more of a natural progression. We all know that Sanchez is going to be the face of this franchise for alot of years, I just don't think it's the smartest thing to do to throw him in the line-up as our starting QB if he is not clearly ready. If he is ready and convincingly wins the starting job then so be it.[/QUOTE] Very good post. With Flacco and Ryan both starting and being somewhat successful last year I think we all forget what can happen while throwing rookies into the fire year 1. Palmer sat and he turned out well (minus the injuries). If Clemens wins the job, that's fine. But if he fails during the season and Sanchez isn't ready, it's going to be a very bad and long season.

08-03-2009, 09:16 PM	#25
32green The original road-kill pus slurper. MMMmmm pus. Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The depths of Despair. Posts: 37,672	[QUOTE=SBIII;3197153]LOL serious? Did you ever see threads where every time you post you're being a dick. ARod.. you post this trying to toot your own horn.[/QUOTE] Lol teh irony oh my

08-03-2009, 09:25 PM	#26
flgreen Veteran Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,039	Agree with Mike D and A Rod. Sanchez also knows that no matter what happens this year, he will be with the Jets, and at the least will still be competing for the starting job next year. Clemens knows it is very unlikely he will be here next season, and he doesn’t know what his status in the league will be. This is his time to audition for a chance to start somewhere else next year. If he has a very successful season, he could be a hot FA next year. If Sanchez slaps him aside in camp, he isn’t even guaranteed to be in the NFL. Probably will be, but you never know. From what I have been reading Clemens has been moving the team very well, then throwing the bone head pick. It’s a lot to ask, but if he can stop making the stupid mistakes I think he can be more then a mediocre QB. I would love to see Sanchez step up and become the QB he has the potential to be, but I’ll be good with Clemens. If it is Clemens I just hope it is because he is playing well, and not because Sanchez looks lost.

08-03-2009, 09:32 PM	#27
One Eye RIP 2012 Jets Insider VIP Join Date: May 2006 Location: Manalapan, NJ Posts: 2,220	I think its been pretty obvious from the reports what is going on with the QB battle. Simply put, Clemens has look more like the seasoned vet than Sanchez. He has a better command of the offense, which is to be expected after 3 years in it. However, it is also obvious from all the reports that Sanchez looks the part better. He is everything you want your QB to be, except tall and experienced. I think Clemens SHOULD win the QB battle but if Sanchez turns it up and picks up the nuances quicker than expected, I dont think Clemens has a chance. Just my 2 cents.

08-03-2009, 10:08 PM	#28
simijet All League Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 4,184	[QUOTE=One Eye;3197313]I think its been pretty obvious from the reports what is going on with the QB battle. Simply put, Clemens has look more like the seasoned vet than Sanchez. He has a better command of the offense, which is to be expected after 3 years in it. However, it is also obvious from all the reports that Sanchez looks the part better. He is everything you want your QB to be, [B][COLOR="Red"]except [/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR="Red"][COLOR="Red"]tall [/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]and experienced. I think Clemens SHOULD win the QB battle but if Sanchez turns it up and picks up the nuances quicker than expected, I dont think Clemens has a chance. Just my 2 cents.[/QUOTE] I know this has been covered ad nauseum, but he's 6'2"!!! Nothing at all wrong with his height.

08-03-2009, 10:30 PM	#29
One Eye RIP 2012 Jets Insider VIP Join Date: May 2006 Location: Manalapan, NJ Posts: 2,220	[QUOTE=simijet;3197355]I know this has been covered ad nauseum, but he's 6'2"!!! Nothing at all wrong with his height.[/QUOTE] Understood, but he is not your prototypical QB height. That's all I was saying. I do not think his height is going to be a factor in his performance.

08-03-2009, 10:53 PM	#30
Dirtstar Snubbed a man just to watch him cry. Hall Of Fame Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 15,774	[QUOTE=ARodFLKeysJetsFan;3197236]I think most people here realize that the Jets have alot invested in Sanchez and it's hard for me believe that anyone here wants him to fail. I can't remember the last time the Jets made such an investment in the QB poistion to be honest with you. Sanchez failing would have a negative impact on the franchise for years to come and again, I don't think anyone wants that. If Clemens wins the competition and starts this year, and gives Sanchez a year to sit and watch, I don't think that would be indicative of Sanchez failing, I think that would be more of a natural progression. We all know that Sanchez is going to be the face of this franchise for alot of years, I just don't think it's the smartest thing to do to throw him in the line-up as our starting QB if he is not clearly ready. If he is ready and convincingly wins the starting job then so be it.[/QUOTE] :eek: spoken like a true Clemmonolgist heathen. you will burn in Mexican hell for disrespecting teh Sanchize :mad:

08-03-2009, 11:23 PM	#31
ListerFiend keeping my head in the books. Veteran Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,213	[quote]If Clemens can curtail his lapses and avoid bad breaks, he may easily win the job.[/quote] thats kind of a huge if....

08-04-2009, 12:31 AM	#32
JumbalayaJet done with NMS Jets Insider VIP Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 14,867	There were other needs to address in the draft, so I hope Sanchez proves his worth right off the bat. As for him coming in later during the season, that'll only happen in the case of injury, or team failure. I wasn't impressed with Clemens, but that doesn't mean he can't improve with experience. If he becomes the choice, he probably always will be. In that case it was a bad draft. I still agree that if he's better he should play.

08-04-2009, 05:46 AM	#33
sg3 REX AND THE I-MAN - BACK ON TRACK Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Big Apple, USA Posts: 20,345	ok, here is my opinion There is no competition THE SAN-CHIZE will be starting on opening day and for the next ten seasons for the NYJ

08-04-2009, 06:03 AM	#34
Ryan Boru thankful to live in this great country. Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 470	[QUOTE=simijet;3197355]I know this has been covered ad nauseum, but he's 6'2"!!! Nothing at all wrong with his height.[/QUOTE] 6'2'' is nothing special height wise. Good QBs at that height or lower tend to be outstanding in other areas. Favre is that height and has a cannon arm. Brees is shorter and has a quicker release and more mobility, in my opinion. Flutie and Young were shorter but they were also faster and had stronger arms. It all has to add up, if your just average in one thing your have to be above average in something else to make up for it. Time will tell.

08-04-2009, 06:35 AM	#35
DBAKE i was right about suckchez Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Hanover, PA Posts: 3,220	they can act all they want to act like this is a competition but its not. clemens would have to be knocking it out of the park....and by that i mean, long drives, NO TURNOVERS!!, and have total team support. thats not the case. yes he might be winning at this point with sanchez only being here for a few weeks but it will not last. you can read between the lines to figure out rex, woody etc want sanchez to win and he will. sanchez starts game 1.

08-04-2009, 08:31 AM	#36
petejet Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Huntington, NY Posts: 8,217	[url]http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9887724/Fights-break-out-at-Jets-camp;-coach-happy?[/url] "In a competition that has been just about even through the first four days of camp, Clemens is going to need more than luck to win the starting job. He has thrown six interceptions during 11-on-11 drills in six practices. "I've put the entire competition in the coaches' hands," said Clemens, who has worked with the first-team offense for all but one practice session."

08-04-2009, 08:47 AM	#37
GreenJoe is in search of the Roy Rodgers dining establishment. Rookie Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 782	Will it be cool if Sanchez wins the competition outright? YES. Would it be better if Clemens started the season so Sanchez could learn? Absolutely. Would it be better for the franchise if Clemens did really well? Of Course. Why on earth do people use camp INT tallies from the first 5 days of camp to bash someone (Clemens) who works hard, is trying to get better, and is the ultimate team player; a guy who graciously stepped aside for Favre and who knows he's doomed when Sanchez comes in? I have no freaking idea. Some of you go out of your way to smear Clemens stats toward saying he's a pile of dog sh!t. He's not great right now, but some of you don't even want him to succeed and its obvious. Classless, brainless, and pathetic. A Jets Fan should WANT HIM to do well and should support what he DOES WELL (throwing on the run, ability to rifle a pass on 2nd or 3rd and long, ability to scramble in a broken play). The guy has done nothing but give 120% of his heart and effort to a team that doesn't really want him to start.

08-04-2009, 09:19 AM	#38
doggin94it Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,392	Ah, summer. What would a Jets(insider) TC be without ARod prematurely patting himself on the back for something? coughadrienclarkewillbefinecough Seriously, ARod, grow up. We'll eventually know whether Clemens can hold onto the job (best for the team if he can, IMO, so I hope he does). But 4 days into TC isn't the time to make that call, let alone throw up the self-indulgent cry for attention that is this "everyone jumped on me but look, someone else agrees with me so there" thread.

08-04-2009, 09:20 AM	#39
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=ARodFLKeysJetsFan;3197127]Come one, come all and give your opinions on the QB competition thus far.[/QUOTE] My reading of the various media, Twitheads and Sundry is: --Media Bias is heavily in favor of The Franchez. --Fan bias is MASSIVELY in favor of The Franchez --Actual play on the field is moderate-to-strongly in favor of Clemens. Clemens is still, even though it IS camp (a time to work out kinks and get your feel together), throwing too many INT's. Other than that (and it's a big deal if it comtinues) Clemens seems quite sharp, in command of the O, and doing quite well. But the INT's need to stop. The Franchez, from the reports I read (with the various propaganda removed) is playing as one would expect a rookie with only 16 career college starts for a stunningly great college team who every week had superior talent at almost every spot....that is, like a fish out of water, making rookie mistakes, freezing when his guy isn'y open by 15 yeards, holding the ball too long, etc, etc, etc. Based on the VERY limited data thus far, Clemens is winning hands down. [U][B]Disclaimer:[/B][/U] As I always say, this is all speculation and interpritation till we get to see these gusy play live-ball for ourselves. I never like taking my opinions from a bunch of twitheads reports, and teh always questionable reporting (and omitting) of our "media". So opinions can, will and should change once we start seeing pre-season games played.