Civil Union vs. Gay Marriage

[Batmans A Scientist]

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;3441379][I]Actually[/I], polygamy is closer to the historical norm than monogamy (or what we have in the US with our divorce rate..."serial monogamy"). And, anthropologically speaking, strict monogamy will ultimately lead to the demise of the human species as that form of sexual relationship allows males with less desirable genes to mate a procreate as freely as males with more highly prized genetics. But that's for another thread :D

[QUOTE]But in the end, my answer is simple:

A. Under the State, it's All Civil Unions. The joining is a Legal Contract (under the State), nothing more, nothing less.

B. Whatever Church Performs the Ceremony has the right to call it whatever they like, whatever makes them happy. But that terminology has no bearing on anything legally. If the State (rather than a Church) Performs it, it must be called Civil Union only.
[/QUOTE]
That is a simple answer...and underlines the insanity of why one of our dear congressman or political activists hasn't brought up your solutions before. I personally believe that the whole gay marriage thing will never be properly addressed because it's continuing to be a wedge issue is very lucrative to people running for office who wish to motivate a particular voter block. :eek:[/QUOTE]


I dont' know if I said that originally. But that is exactly what my opinion is on the issue. EVERYTHING should be a civil union. And then, if you are married by a religious person, then it would be 'marriage'.

The problem is that people would be so outraged that it'll never work. Frankly, it's kind of sad. Marriage is simply a specific religious term for a civil union.
My marriage to my wife is no different than Frank's civil union to Steve and if civil unions had 100% of the same rights that marriage had, I think things would be pretty simple.

I also think gay marriage advocates have done a terrible job framing the issue. They should have framed it as a fight for civil unions with 100% of the benefits of marriage (and divorce) rather than the specific fight for "Gay Marriage". That has set back the battle for 100% rights for a while.

[Timmy®]

[QUOTE=Tyler Durden;3441430]Then I guess you don't see marriage as a right. I do.

[/QUOTE]

I suspect the NAMBLA folks feel the same way.

[32green]

[QUOTE=Tyler Durden;3441367][IMG]http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~walters/web%20104/30s%20parks%20segregation.jpg[/IMG]

Separate but equal.

It's like we've learned nothing from our own history.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;3441418]We are talking about the United States not Ireland.[/QUOTE]

Nothing more heart warming than being lectured about American history...by an Irishman.:rolleyes:

If I ran that crap by a bunch of cornerboys in Limerick, I'd end up the center piece in a boot party right quick.

[Tyler Durden]

[QUOTE=32green;3441438]Nothing more heart warming than being lectured about American history...by an Irishman.:rolleyes:

If I ran that crap by a bunch of cornerboys in Limerick, I'd end up the center piece in a boot party right quick.[/QUOTE]

I'm proud to say I'm an American citizen. My opinion is just as valid as yours.

[Timmy®]

[QUOTE=Tyler Durden;3441442]I'm proud to say I'm an American citizen. My opinion is just as valid as yours.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

[Tyler Durden]

[QUOTE=Timmy®;3441450]:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

[Timmy®]

[QUOTE=Tyler Durden;3441452]:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Are you a dual Irish-American citizen?

[32green]

[QUOTE=Tyler Durden;3441442]I'm proud to say I'm an American citizen. My opinion is just as valid as yours.[/QUOTE]

And I'm proud to be of Irish ancestry...except if I ever decided to emigrate to Ireland, the last thing I would do would be to unashamedly lecture Irishmen on Irish history, at least until I was old enough to know what the **** I was talking about. And believe me, they wouldnt allow it either.

I dont blame you, its a unique Irish trait...I believe you are a good kid.

[Tyler Durden]

[QUOTE=Timmy®;3441454]Are you a dual Irish-American citizen?[/QUOTE]

Yeah... I should probably ask someone about this, but since I'm from Northern Ireland, I may be a citizen for Ireland and the UK.

[freestater]

[QUOTE=Tyler Durden;3441430]Then I guess you don't see marriage as a right. I do.
[/quote] :shakehead...

Righs are intrinsic. They cannot be conferred upon you by a third party. A "right" that is conferred to you is called a 'privilege'. They're not the same thing.
[QUOTE]You have the right to marry the person you love.[/QUOTE]

Not really. Kinda matters what they think of it.

[QUOTE]You have the right to get married 100 times over.[/QUOTE]

only if the other 100 people are cool with it.
[QUOTE]You have the right to marry a 95 year old for his money.[/QUOTE]

as long as he's cool with it.
[QUOTE]You have the right to get married in Vegas by Elvis.[/QUOTE]
Elvis is dead. so no.

[QUOTE]You have the right to get married on a reality TV show.[/QUOTE]

I guess... if you own a reality TV show.

[quote] You have the right to get married on Jerry Springer.[/QUOTE]

OK, sure... I'm with you on this one. :D

[Come Back to NY]

[QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;3441418]We are talking about the United States not Ireland.[/QUOTE]

:clapper::clapper::clapper:

gotta love these clowns who come here, exploit the nation yet find nothing but fault in the good 'ol USA....

[32green]

[QUOTE=Tyler Durden;3441464]Yeah... I should probably ask someone about this, but since I'm from Northern Ireland, I may be a citizen for Ireland and the UK.[/QUOTE]

Lol.....you dont know if you are an Irish citizen or British subject...yet you seem to be an expert on all things American....:rolleyes:

[JayTPenny]

Equating gay marriage rights with civil rights is so simplistically stupid, its difficult to even debate the matter.

All men and woman- straight AND gay- have the right to MARRY a person of the opposite gender. All men and woman- straight AND gay, can not "marry" a person of the same gender because there is no such thing in our society (or at least there wasn't...)

Yes, its somewhat of a semantic arguement, but nevertheless a clear distinction from civil rights.

[Jets Things]

[QUOTE=32green;3441470]Lol.....you dont know if you are an Irish citizen or British subject...yet you [B]CLAIM[/B] to be an expert on all things American....:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Fixed.

[Sourceworx]

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;3441302]
The most significant difference between marriage and civil unions (or domestic partnerships) is that only marriage offers federal benefits and protections.

Number of Legal Benefits:
Marriage: Over 1,049 federal and state level benefits
Civil Unions: Over 300 state level benefits. *No federal protection

Tax Relief:
Marriage: Couples can file both federal and state tax returns jointly.
Civil Unions: Couples can only file jointly in the state of civil registration.

[B]Medical Decisions:
Marriage: Partners can make emergency medical decisions.
Civil Unions: Partners can only make medical decisions in the registered state. Partners may not be able to make decisions out of state.[/B]

Gifts:
Marriage: Partners can transfer gifts to each other without tax penalty.
Civil Unions: Partners do not pay state taxes, but are required to report federal taxes.

[B]Death Benefits:
Marriage: In the case of a partner's death, the spouse receives any earned Social Security or veteran benefits.
Civil Unions: Partners do not receive Social Security or any other government benefits in case of death.[/B]

Child/Spousal Support:
Marriage: In case of divorce, individuals may have a legally-binding financial obligation to spouses and children.
Civil Unions: In the case of dissolution , no such spousal or child benefits are guaranteed or required out of state.

Immigration Rights:
Marriage: U.S. citizens and legal residents can sponsor their spouses and family members for immigration.
Civil Unions: U.S. citizens and legal residents cannot sponsor non-legal spouses or family members.
[/QUOTE]

One of my wife's closest friends (a girl she grew up with) is a lesbian who is "engaged" to another girl. They are planning on having a ceremony despite the lack of a legal recognition by NY State.

The two items that I bolded are the rights they argue for whenever we have a gay marriage discussion. Those two issues seem to be the biggest sticking points.

Oh and they couldn't care less if it's called "marriage" or not. They just want the same rights that straight couples have.

[HDCentStOhio]

[QUOTE=32green;3441470]Lol.....you dont know if you are an Irish citizen or British subject...yet you seem to be an expert on all things American....:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

:bigcry:You can't make this up.

By the way, TD, you should familiarize yourself with the Belfast Agreement. Should answer your question.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfast_Agreement[/url]

[quantum]

Its all about furthering the agenda, not whether the rights are the same.

The new insult for homos to call heteros: "breeders". Nice.

Can I call them "evolutionary dead-ends"? Cuz that's what they are. :rolleyes:

[PlumberKhan]

[QUOTE=quantum;3441580]Its all about furthering the agenda, not whether the rights are the same.[/QUOTE]

What's the agenda?

[FF2®]

[QUOTE=quantum;3441580]Its all about furthering the agenda, not whether the rights are the same.

The new insult for homos to call heteros: "breeders". Nice.

Can I call them "evolutionary dead-ends"? Cuz that's what they are. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

You may be surprise by this but a good number of gay couples have no agenda other than living their lives under equal protection as other citizens have.

And you can call them any name you want. They are used to it.

[Crease29]

50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce. Maybe we should let gay people have a shot.