Fins/Pats: Stat line vs. reality

long island leprechaun · 10-05-2010, 08:47 AM

I didn't watch the game, which is why I'm asking this question: The stat line shows the fins beating the Pats in virtually every category, with rushing yards fairly close but with a Pats edge. The one major category in which the Pats trounce the Fins is turnovers. Now we all know that turnovers are critical to wins and losses. I raise all this because I've already read some media reports that the Pats are suddenly a team to be reckoned with and back to elite status. It seems to me that wins like this don't make a good case for anything long term or fundamental. The Pats produced points on turnovers and a kickoff return but were otherwise less than meets the eye vs. the Dolphins. Which means the Dolphins shot themselves in the foot but actually might be the better team fundamentally. Should we really worry about the Pats?

MTJets · 10-05-2010, 09:06 AM

I'm not sure how the Pats are a force to be reckoned with when they scored almost all of there points with a blocked field goal, 2 blocked punts, 3 int, and a kickoff return. They didn't score on 2/3 of int, but still that helped them in a lot of ways.

quantum · 10-05-2010, 09:13 AM

This sounds a lot like Pace's rant against the Wildcat last season.

It doesn't really matter how the Pasts* scored their points, only that they did. They attacked an opponent's weak spots and it paid off.

I'm not one for worrying about what's in the rearview mirror - only what's in front of us.

John_0515 · 10-05-2010, 09:14 AM

Patriots are a good team, but not a spectacular team. 28 points can be attributed to special teams and defense yesterday. Brady was ok, and Moss was invisible. Vonte Davis actually did great against him.

The next quarter of the season is going to be fun.

mcsully · 10-05-2010, 09:28 AM

Funny thing is if you didn't see this game, then the stats don't tell the truth at all.. Miami played ultra tight.. on the opening drive 3rd 6, while moving the ball down well, they ran the wild cat & got stuffed.. Bad call, esp when Henne was like 4-4 at this point..

Pats made adjustments by the 3rd or 4th series and miami really couldn't get it going on offense..

One noticeable difference is the pats played towards the opponents weakness, not their own strength.. What I mean is Miami was geared up to stop anything deep and attack brady.. What did the Pats do? ran draws to slow down the outside pass rush, ran off tackes at wake.. He got washed up a lot in the blocking..

1st time in a while they game planned like that..

frankiepapa · 10-05-2010, 09:55 AM

Biggest downfall for the fish was only being up 7-6 at the half...they were getting pressure on brady and moving the ball but could only muster up 7 points....

Beerfish · 10-05-2010, 09:56 AM

[QUOTE=frankiepapa;3766311]Biggest downfall for the fish was only being up 7-6 at the half...they were getting pressure on brady and moving the ball but could only muster up 7 points....[/QUOTE]

Those two terrible Henne ints to that one LB just killed them.

FF2® · 10-05-2010, 09:57 AM

[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;3766241]I didn't watch the game, which is why I'm asking this question: The stat line shows the fins beating the Pats in virtually every category, with rushing yards fairly close but with a Pats edge. The one major category in which the Pats trounce the Fins is turnovers. Now we all know that turnovers are critical to wins and losses. I raise all this because I've already read some media reports that the Pats are suddenly a team to be reckoned with and back to elite status. It seems to me that wins like this don't make a good case for anything long term or fundamental. The Pats produced points on turnovers and a kickoff return but were otherwise less than meets the eye vs. the Dolphins. Which means the Dolphins shot themselves in the foot but actually might be the better team fundamentally. Should we really worry about the Pats?[/QUOTE]

Its just one game and certainly not a statement.

This is one case where the stats don't mean a thing.

Basically the O and D did what they had to do, when the needed to do it. When you get so many points from Special teams there no reason to do anything on offense but control the ball with low risk, time-consuming drives. And when you are up by 20, your D can give play a little soft, just not giving up big plays.

kaol · 10-05-2010, 09:58 AM

Fins big stats-extremely poor special teams-poor decisions by Henne= NE victory

chesapeakejet · 10-05-2010, 09:59 AM

[QUOTE=FF2®;3766318]Its just one game and certainly not a statement.

This is one case where the stats don't mean a thing.

Basically the O and D did what they had to do, when the needed to do it. When you get so many points from Special teams there no reason to do anything on offense but control the ball with low risk, time-consuming drives. And when you are up by 20, your D can give play a little soft, just not giving up big plays.[/QUOTE]

Beli should send Westhoff a thank you note. I'm sure he found something in Miami's blocking scheme on special teams he could exploit b/c Westy found it in our game.

frankiepapa · 10-05-2010, 10:07 AM

[QUOTE=Beerfish;3766317]Those two terrible Henne ints to that one LB just killed them.[/QUOTE]

agreed, but after the kickoff, i think henne decided he had to carry this team and ended up falling flat on his face...if they were up 17-6 or so at the half that kick return doesnt hurt as much and you are still ahead...

teng · 10-05-2010, 10:08 AM

NE's defense looked better than they actually played. They gave up short passes all night long and only got hurt on the two TD plays. Yet they still gave up 400 yards of offense to Miami like we did. And BTW, Miami's Wildcat is dead.

FF2® · 10-05-2010, 10:15 AM

[QUOTE=teng;3766338]NE's defense looked better than they actually played. They gave up short passes all night long and only got hurt on the two TD plays. Yet they still gave up 400 yards of offense to Miami like we did. And BTW, Miami's Wildcat is dead.[/QUOTE]

All that really matters is the points scored.

The game situation may make it OK that you give up short passes all night long as long as they don't lead to points. Both the Jets and Pats D gave up 14 points. Not bad.

long island leprechaun · 10-05-2010, 10:17 AM

[QUOTE=mcsully;3766281]Funny thing is if you didn't see this game, then the stats don't tell the truth at all.. Miami played ultra tight.. on the opening drive 3rd 6, while moving the ball down well, they ran the wild cat & got stuffed.. Bad call, esp when Henne was like 4-4 at this point..

Pats made adjustments by the 3rd or 4th series and miami really couldn't get it going on offense..

One noticeable difference is the pats played towards the opponents weakness, not their own strength.. What I mean is Miami was geared up to stop anything deep and attack brady.. What did the Pats do? ran draws to slow down the outside pass rush, ran off tackes at wake.. He got washed up a lot in the blocking..

1st time in a while they game planned like that..[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. That's why I asked the question, although it looks like neither team could do much on offense. Protecting a lead will, as FF2 noted, always lean a team to conservative ball protection, but NE didn't win the TOP either. Just found it interesting and suggestive that we shouldn't take a lot away from this game for the future. The Pats-Ravens game should tell us a lot more.

DBarrett=all<3 · 10-05-2010, 10:17 AM

[QUOTE=chesapeakejet;3766324]Beli should send Westhoff a thank you note. I'm sure he found something in Miami's blocking scheme on special teams he could exploit b/c Westy found it in our game.[/QUOTE]

This is certainly true. You can see that their punt block and our punt block against Miami look identical.

Also, when you score twice on specials and once on defense, your offense is naturally on the field for way fewer plays, so this will skew the stats toward the other team's offense, particularly in terms of yardage.

Rich Miano · 10-05-2010, 10:19 AM

The stats are skewed because of NE's three return TD's. Miami had three more offensive series than NE .Then with the big lead NE played ball control and Miami played no huddle

ryan10 · 10-05-2010, 10:19 AM

[QUOTE=Beerfish;3766317]Those two terrible Henne ints to that one LB just killed them.[/QUOTE]

+1..remember all those henne is better than sanchez articles last year?

FF2® · 10-05-2010, 10:19 AM

[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;3766344]Fair enough. That's why I asked the question, although it looks like neither team could do much on offense. Protecting a lead will, as FF2 noted, always lean a team to conservative ball protection, but NE didn't win the TOP either. Just found it interesting and suggestive that [B]we shouldn't take a lot away from this game for the future.[/B] The Pats-Ravens game should tell us a lot more.[/QUOTE]

I agree with the bolded section 100%. A good win for the Pats but its not like it says alot about the Pats O or D.

I think this game said alot more about the Dolphins. And Henne.

Dirtstar · 10-05-2010, 10:23 AM

[QUOTE=FF2®;3766318]Its just one game and certainly not a statement.

This is one case where the stats don't mean a thing.

Basically the O and D did what they had to do, when the needed to do it. When you get so many points from Special teams there no reason to do anything on offense but control the ball with low risk, time-consuming drives. And when you are up by 20, your D can give play a little soft, just not giving up big plays.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

James Hasty · 10-05-2010, 10:27 AM

In the early part of the game both teams looked evenly matched. The turnovers and special teams broke the game open and then the rout was on.

When they play again I would expect the score to be much closer.

10-05-2010, 08:47 AM	#1
long island leprechaun Don't mess with Angel Eyes. All Pro Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: greenwich village, NYC Posts: 7,486	Fins/Pats: Stat line vs. reality I didn't watch the game, which is why I'm asking this question: The stat line shows the fins beating the Pats in virtually every category, with rushing yards fairly close but with a Pats edge. The one major category in which the Pats trounce the Fins is turnovers. Now we all know that turnovers are critical to wins and losses. I raise all this because I've already read some media reports that the Pats are suddenly a team to be reckoned with and back to elite status. It seems to me that wins like this don't make a good case for anything long term or fundamental. The Pats produced points on turnovers and a kickoff return but were otherwise less than meets the eye vs. the Dolphins. Which means the Dolphins shot themselves in the foot but actually might be the better team fundamentally. Should we really worry about the Pats?

10-05-2010, 09:06 AM	#2
MTJets is Sanchizified? Veteran Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 394	I'm not sure how the Pats are a force to be reckoned with when they scored almost all of there points with a blocked field goal, 2 blocked punts, 3 int, and a kickoff return. They didn't score on 2/3 of int, but still that helped them in a lot of ways.

10-05-2010, 09:13 AM	#3
quantum GFY Snatchez! Hall Of Fame Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: LI Posts: 18,033	This sounds a lot like Pace's rant against the Wildcat last season. It doesn't really matter how the Pasts* scored their points, only that they did. They attacked an opponent's weak spots and it paid off. I'm not one for worrying about what's in the rearview mirror - only what's in front of us.

10-05-2010, 09:14 AM	#4
John_0515 Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 21,230	Patriots are a good team, but not a spectacular team. 28 points can be attributed to special teams and defense yesterday. Brady was ok, and Moss was invisible. Vonte Davis actually did great against him. The next quarter of the season is going to be fun.

10-05-2010, 09:28 AM	#5
mcsully licking my chops for Madden 12 All Pro Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,733	Funny thing is if you didn't see this game, then the stats don't tell the truth at all.. Miami played ultra tight.. on the opening drive 3rd 6, while moving the ball down well, they ran the wild cat & got stuffed.. Bad call, esp when Henne was like 4-4 at this point.. Pats made adjustments by the 3rd or 4th series and miami really couldn't get it going on offense.. One noticeable difference is the pats played towards the opponents weakness, not their own strength.. What I mean is Miami was geared up to stop anything deep and attack brady.. What did the Pats do? ran draws to slow down the outside pass rush, ran off tackes at wake.. He got washed up a lot in the blocking.. 1st time in a while they game planned like that..

10-05-2010, 09:55 AM	#6
frankiepapa hopes to bring back braylon and holmes All League Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,532	Biggest downfall for the fish was only being up 7-6 at the half...they were getting pressure on brady and moving the ball but could only muster up 7 points....

10-05-2010, 09:56 AM	#7
Beerfish Hall Of Fame Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 19,116	[QUOTE=frankiepapa;3766311]Biggest downfall for the fish was only being up 7-6 at the half...they were getting pressure on brady and moving the ball but could only muster up 7 points....[/QUOTE] Those two terrible Henne ints to that one LB just killed them.

10-05-2010, 09:57 AM	#8
FF2® Believes Sloppy Guy was involved JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 46,624	[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;3766241]I didn't watch the game, which is why I'm asking this question: The stat line shows the fins beating the Pats in virtually every category, with rushing yards fairly close but with a Pats edge. The one major category in which the Pats trounce the Fins is turnovers. Now we all know that turnovers are critical to wins and losses. I raise all this because I've already read some media reports that the Pats are suddenly a team to be reckoned with and back to elite status. It seems to me that wins like this don't make a good case for anything long term or fundamental. The Pats produced points on turnovers and a kickoff return but were otherwise less than meets the eye vs. the Dolphins. Which means the Dolphins shot themselves in the foot but actually might be the better team fundamentally. Should we really worry about the Pats?[/QUOTE] Its just one game and certainly not a statement. This is one case where the stats don't mean a thing. Basically the O and D did what they had to do, when the needed to do it. When you get so many points from Special teams there no reason to do anything on offense but control the ball with low risk, time-consuming drives. And when you are up by 20, your D can give play a little soft, just not giving up big plays.

10-05-2010, 09:58 AM	#9
kaol Wondering Why Joe Klecko is not in the HOF. Rookie Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 736	Fins big stats-extremely poor special teams-poor decisions by Henne= NE victory

10-05-2010, 09:59 AM	#10
chesapeakejet is a geek who loves football boardgames. Schluberator & Gadfly ® Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 24,514	[QUOTE=FF2®;3766318]Its just one game and certainly not a statement. This is one case where the stats don't mean a thing. Basically the O and D did what they had to do, when the needed to do it. When you get so many points from Special teams there no reason to do anything on offense but control the ball with low risk, time-consuming drives. And when you are up by 20, your D can give play a little soft, just not giving up big plays.[/QUOTE] Beli should send Westhoff a thank you note. I'm sure he found something in Miami's blocking scheme on special teams he could exploit b/c Westy found it in our game.

10-05-2010, 10:07 AM	#11
frankiepapa hopes to bring back braylon and holmes All League Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,532	[QUOTE=Beerfish;3766317]Those two terrible Henne ints to that one LB just killed them.[/QUOTE] agreed, but after the kickoff, i think henne decided he had to carry this team and ended up falling flat on his face...if they were up 17-6 or so at the half that kick return doesnt hurt as much and you are still ahead...

10-05-2010, 10:08 AM	#12
teng All Pro Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,981	NE's defense looked better than they actually played. They gave up short passes all night long and only got hurt on the two TD plays. Yet they still gave up 400 yards of offense to Miami like we did. And BTW, Miami's Wildcat is dead.

10-05-2010, 10:15 AM	#13
FF2® Believes Sloppy Guy was involved JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 46,624	[QUOTE=teng;3766338]NE's defense looked better than they actually played. They gave up short passes all night long and only got hurt on the two TD plays. Yet they still gave up 400 yards of offense to Miami like we did. And BTW, Miami's Wildcat is dead.[/QUOTE] All that really matters is the points scored. The game situation may make it OK that you give up short passes all night long as long as they don't lead to points. Both the Jets and Pats D gave up 14 points. Not bad.

10-05-2010, 10:17 AM	#14
long island leprechaun Don't mess with Angel Eyes. All Pro Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: greenwich village, NYC Posts: 7,486	[QUOTE=mcsully;3766281]Funny thing is if you didn't see this game, then the stats don't tell the truth at all.. Miami played ultra tight.. on the opening drive 3rd 6, while moving the ball down well, they ran the wild cat & got stuffed.. Bad call, esp when Henne was like 4-4 at this point.. Pats made adjustments by the 3rd or 4th series and miami really couldn't get it going on offense.. One noticeable difference is the pats played towards the opponents weakness, not their own strength.. What I mean is Miami was geared up to stop anything deep and attack brady.. What did the Pats do? ran draws to slow down the outside pass rush, ran off tackes at wake.. He got washed up a lot in the blocking.. 1st time in a while they game planned like that..[/QUOTE] Fair enough. That's why I asked the question, although it looks like neither team could do much on offense. Protecting a lead will, as FF2 noted, always lean a team to conservative ball protection, but NE didn't win the TOP either. Just found it interesting and suggestive that we shouldn't take a lot away from this game for the future. The Pats-Ravens game should tell us a lot more.

10-05-2010, 10:17 AM	#15
DBarrett=all<3 Practice Squad Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY Posts: 471	[QUOTE=chesapeakejet;3766324]Beli should send Westhoff a thank you note. I'm sure he found something in Miami's blocking scheme on special teams he could exploit b/c Westy found it in our game.[/QUOTE] This is certainly true. You can see that their punt block and our punt block against Miami look identical. Also, when you score twice on specials and once on defense, your offense is naturally on the field for way fewer plays, so this will skew the stats toward the other team's offense, particularly in terms of yardage.

10-05-2010, 10:19 AM	#16
Rich Miano ready for our boys to steamroll the rest of the NFL Practice Squad Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 293	The stats are skewed because of NE's three return TD's. Miami had three more offensive series than NE .Then with the big lead NE played ball control and Miami played no huddle

10-05-2010, 10:19 AM	#17
ryan10 fan since 1978-root for the jersey!!!! 4get everything else!! All League Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,556	[QUOTE=Beerfish;3766317]Those two terrible Henne ints to that one LB just killed them.[/QUOTE] +1..remember all those henne is better than sanchez articles last year?

10-05-2010, 10:23 AM	#19
Dirtstar Snubbed a man just to watch him cry. Hall Of Fame Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 15,882	[QUOTE=FF2®;3766318]Its just one game and certainly not a statement. This is one case where the stats don't mean a thing. Basically the O and D did what they had to do, when the needed to do it. When you get so many points from Special teams there no reason to do anything on offense but control the ball with low risk, time-consuming drives. And when you are up by 20, your D can give play a little soft, just not giving up big plays.[/QUOTE] :rolleyes:

10-05-2010, 10:27 AM	#20
James Hasty All League Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 4,541	In the early part of the game both teams looked evenly matched. The turnovers and special teams broke the game open and then the rout was on. When they play again I would expect the score to be much closer.