Browns fan sues NFL over lockout

petejet · 03-25-2011, 12:03 PM

I knew something like this would happen.

-------------------------------

CLEVELAND -- A Cleveland Browns fan sued the NFL and its teams over the player lockout, claiming it violated his contract to buy tickets through his personal seat license.

Ken Lanci, a self-made millionaire who ran unsuccessfully last year for the top county government job in Cleveland, filed the lawsuit Thursday in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court.

"It's a fight between billionaires and millionaires," Lanci said Friday in a phone interview. "There isn't any sympathy for multimillionaires. It's just not going to happen. And somebody has to stand up and say, 'Enough's enough.' "

The lawsuit asked for damages of more than $25,000 from the Browns on both breach of contract and bad faith counts and more than $25,000 from the league and its teams for alleged contract interference.

Neal Gulkis, a Browns spokesman, referred questions to the league.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello told The Associated Press in an e-mail that the league had not seen the lawsuit but understood fans' frustration.

"NFL clubs all have announced refund policies to protect fans during the work stoppage," Aiello wrote. "The best solution to Mr. Lanci's concern is for the union to return to the bargaining table and complete a labor agreement that will put the game back on the field where it belongs."

The lawsuit also asked for any additional unspecified damages that the court considers fair.

The case was assigned to Judge John P. O'Donnell. The league and teams have four weeks to respond in court.

Lanci claimed that the lockout denies him the right under the personal seat licenses to go to Browns games and has destroyed the value of the seat-license agreement.

The lawsuit claims the NFL and its teams have "conspired with the Browns and one another to lock out the players, without justification, resulting in the Browns' breach of the PSL agreement."

The NFL hasn't lost games to a work stoppage since 1987, when a strike shortened the season and some games included nonunion replacement players.

The main sticking point in negotiations leading up to the lockout was how to divide the NFL's more than $9 billion in annual revenues.

beemer · 03-25-2011, 12:28 PM

[QUOTE=petejet;3987978]Ken Lanci, a[B] self-made millionaire[/B] who ran unsuccessfully last year for the top county government job in Cleveland, filed the lawsuit Thursday in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court.

"It's a fight between billionaires and millionaires," Lanci said Friday in a phone interview. "[B]There isn't any sympathy for multimillionaires[/B] "
[/QUOTE]

Irony alert.

The Boston Patriot · 03-25-2011, 02:06 PM

I was thinking that Browns fan ought to sue the Browns for sucking so badly
for the last fifty years. He might have a case (or at the very least a lot of
sympathy) for his efforts.

JetsFanatic · 03-26-2011, 08:30 AM

I hate these frivolous lawsuits. Another idiotic case that ties up the judicial system.

JerseyJet80 · 03-26-2011, 01:24 PM

wouldnt he be happy that he didnt have to watch the browns play?

fullblast · 03-26-2011, 01:31 PM

Really now... :zzz:

Heynowguy · 03-26-2011, 05:44 PM

[QUOTE=JetsFanatic;3988476]I hate these frivolous lawsuits. Another idiotic case that ties up the judicial system.[/QUOTE]

I'm against frivoulous suits too, but I don't think that is what you have here.

Let's say the teams said, "You have to pay in advance pay for tickets, games played or not, no refunds". Would that be grounds for a suit by a fan? I would say yes.

So why do you have to pay for your PSL, games played or not? Seems pretty similar to my case above. Plus remember, this is an owner lockout, not a strike. If someone is buying the PSL on installments, why should someone have to pay for the 2011 installment if there are no games?

The suit may not win, but it has merit and is not frivolous.

innerjet · 03-26-2011, 05:56 PM

I'd say taking money for events that aren't guaranteed to happen should be illegal.

Mikey Z 6 · 03-26-2011, 07:29 PM

lolololol

Savage69 · 03-26-2011, 07:38 PM

[QUOTE=Heynowguy;3988676]I'm against frivoulous suits too, but I don't think that is what you have here.

Let's say the teams said, "You have to pay in advance pay for tickets, games played or not, no refunds". Would that be grounds for a suit by a fan? I would say yes.

So why do you have to pay for your PSL, games played or not? Seems pretty similar to my case above. Plus remember, this is an owner lockout, not a strike. [B]If someone is buying the PSL on installments, why should someone have to pay for the 2011 installment if there are no games? [/B]
The suit may not win, but it has merit and is not frivolous.[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you own the seats by paying for the licence??(I mean the right to buy tickets for those seats. If no games are played you would get a ticket refund would you not?? And you could sell your PSL if you wanted couldn't you?? The point is a PSL has value otherwise just buy game day tickets..

rgoltsch · 03-26-2011, 10:44 PM

[QUOTE=Savage69;3988707]Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you own the seats by paying for the licence??(I mean the right to buy tickets for those seats. If no games are played you would get a ticket refund would you not?? And you could sell your PSL if you wanted couldn't you?? The point is a PSL has value otherwise just buy game day tickets..[/QUOTE]

The value of this guy's PSL been devalued by the team and the league by having this lockout. So while the suit might seem frivolous on first glance.....if the lockout lasts a while and games are cancelled....and fans stay away once they do come back (Like MLB experienced after the 94 strike), this guy's PSL will not be worth what it was due to an act committed by the team.

I am not a lawyer, but I can see the merit of having a judge decide if this case has merits.

Vin · 03-27-2011, 10:03 AM

Excuse me if I don't shed a tear for yet another MILLIONAIRE here. Wake me when there's an article talking about Jets Football. :zzz:

fukushimajin · 03-27-2011, 10:44 AM

Good for this guy -- I wish it was a class action that included every owner of a PSL. And to all you folks decrying the supposedly frivolous nature of the suit -- if he wins there will absolutely be no games missed this year. The owners would whither under the financial pressure. It really is amazing that people just can't conceive of the owners having to face the consequences of their actions -- ever. First, they create the PSL -- which is really an unconscionable business practice -- then they lock out the players who were happy to simply extend their current deal and then, when someone thinks of a way to possibly turn their PSL nonsense against them, you side with the owners position? Really?

petejet · 03-28-2011, 09:05 AM

[QUOTE=fukushimajin;3988864]Good for this guy -- I wish it was a class action that included every owner of a PSL. And to all you folks decrying the supposedly frivolous nature of the suit -- if he wins there will absolutely be no games missed this year. The owners would whither under the financial pressure. It really is amazing that people just can't conceive of the owners having to face the consequences of their actions -- ever. First, they create the PSL -- which is really an unconscionable business practice -- then they lock out the players who were happy to simply extend their current deal and then, when someone thinks of a way to possibly turn their PSL nonsense against them, you side with the owners position? Really?[/QUOTE]

The problem is nothing has been canceled yet so what exactly are the damages here?

Savage69 · 03-28-2011, 10:11 AM

[QUOTE=petejet;3989137]The problem is nothing has been canceled yet so what exactly are the damages here?[/QUOTE]

Next the guy will be suing a airline for a crash that never happened and a plane he was never on..:P

Traitor Jay & the Woodies · 03-28-2011, 10:38 AM

It's good to know that JI.com isn't the exclusive home of attention whores in the NFL.

The guy should sue his daddy for making him a Browns fan.

fukushimajin · 03-28-2011, 02:41 PM

[QUOTE=petejet;3989137]The problem is nothing has been canceled yet so what exactly are the damages here?[/QUOTE]

None yet, legal system takes a long time. True though, he can't get an injunction and would be bounced for lack of standing at this point. Still, I like that this out there for the owners to think about should they decide to miss games over some minor points at the end of negotiations...

petejet · 03-28-2011, 02:49 PM

[QUOTE=fukushimajin;3989370]None yet, legal system takes a long time. True though, he can't get an injunction and would be bounced for lack of standing at this point. Still, I like that this out there for the owners to think about should they decide to miss games over some minor points at the end of negotiations...[/QUOTE]

I am curious to see if there is anything in the PSL contracts the cover the owners in event of a work stoppage. Can anyone comment?

Heynowguy · 03-28-2011, 08:07 PM

[QUOTE=Savage69;3988707]Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you own the seats by paying for the licence??(I mean the right to buy tickets for those seats. If no games are played you would get a ticket refund would you not?? And you could sell your PSL if you wanted couldn't you?? The point is a PSL has value otherwise just buy game day tickets..[/QUOTE]

You have good points, effective counter arguments. I said that the case has merit, not that it's a slam dunk win. I would love to argue the case though.

How much value is there in a PSL for "the right to buy tickets" when there are no tickets?

Let me play a what if with you. What if the lockout lasts 10 years? (I know, a long shot, but so is Butler-VCU.) If the lockout lasted 10 years, would you say a law suit has merit? Now, say it lasts 1 year, give me 10% of the 10 year damage number.

I'll add a wrinkle, Woody was selling PSLs the same time he was planning his lockout. That's a bit crooked at least, no? I think it's crooked enough to show to a judge and it's not frivoulus.

Heynowguy · 03-28-2011, 08:14 PM

[QUOTE=petejet;3989137]The problem is nothing has been canceled yet so what exactly are the damages here?[/QUOTE]

You make a good point. I think you have to disect this into two cases.

If say the season is cancelled, do PSL owners have some recourse? Say you agree with that.

Then if there is damage to the PSL value of a real lost season, there is proabably damage due to the potential of a lost season. I know, I'm pushing it a bit, but let me give you an example.

You have one of those Toyotas that had brake defects a while back, obviously you have damage. But all Toyotas, break defects or not, took a hit in their value due to that problem.

03-25-2011, 12:03 PM	#1
petejet Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Huntington, NY Posts: 8,221	Browns fan sues NFL over lockout I knew something like this would happen. ------------------------------- CLEVELAND -- A Cleveland Browns fan sued the NFL and its teams over the player lockout, claiming it violated his contract to buy tickets through his personal seat license. Ken Lanci, a self-made millionaire who ran unsuccessfully last year for the top county government job in Cleveland, filed the lawsuit Thursday in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court. "It's a fight between billionaires and millionaires," Lanci said Friday in a phone interview. "There isn't any sympathy for multimillionaires. It's just not going to happen. And somebody has to stand up and say, 'Enough's enough.' " The lawsuit asked for damages of more than $25,000 from the Browns on both breach of contract and bad faith counts and more than $25,000 from the league and its teams for alleged contract interference. Neal Gulkis, a Browns spokesman, referred questions to the league. NFL spokesman Greg Aiello told The Associated Press in an e-mail that the league had not seen the lawsuit but understood fans' frustration. "NFL clubs all have announced refund policies to protect fans during the work stoppage," Aiello wrote. "The best solution to Mr. Lanci's concern is for the union to return to the bargaining table and complete a labor agreement that will put the game back on the field where it belongs." The lawsuit also asked for any additional unspecified damages that the court considers fair. The case was assigned to Judge John P. O'Donnell. The league and teams have four weeks to respond in court. Lanci claimed that the lockout denies him the right under the personal seat licenses to go to Browns games and has destroyed the value of the seat-license agreement. The lawsuit claims the NFL and its teams have "conspired with the Browns and one another to lock out the players, without justification, resulting in the Browns' breach of the PSL agreement." The NFL hasn't lost games to a work stoppage since 1987, when a strike shortened the season and some games included nonunion replacement players. The main sticking point in negotiations leading up to the lockout was how to divide the NFL's more than $9 billion in annual revenues.

03-28-2011, 08:14 PM	#20
Heynowguy All Pro Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,170	[QUOTE=petejet;3989137]The problem is nothing has been canceled yet so what exactly are the damages here?[/QUOTE] You make a good point. I think you have to disect this into two cases. If say the season is cancelled, do PSL owners have some recourse? Say you agree with that. Then if there is damage to the PSL value of a real lost season, there is proabably damage due to the potential of a lost season. I know, I'm pushing it a bit, but let me give you an example. You have one of those Toyotas that had brake defects a while back, obviously you have damage. But all Toyotas, break defects or not, took a hit in their value due to that problem. Last edited by Heynowguy; 03-28-2011 at 08:41 PM.

03-25-2011, 12:28 PM	#2
beemer Veteran Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Gateway to the Catskills Posts: 1,782	[QUOTE=petejet;3987978]Ken Lanci, a[B] self-made millionaire[/B] who ran unsuccessfully last year for the top county government job in Cleveland, filed the lawsuit Thursday in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court. "It's a fight between billionaires and millionaires," Lanci said Friday in a phone interview. "[B]There isn't any sympathy for multimillionaires[/B] " [/QUOTE] Irony alert.

03-25-2011, 02:06 PM	#3
The Boston Patriot is getting the banned back together! All Pro Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Island of Sodor Posts: 6,267	I was thinking that Browns fan ought to sue the Browns for sucking so badly for the last fifty years. He might have a case (or at the very least a lot of sympathy) for his efforts.

03-26-2011, 08:30 AM	#4
JetsFanatic When you listen to the fans, you sit with the fans! Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,942	I hate these frivolous lawsuits. Another idiotic case that ties up the judicial system.

03-26-2011, 01:24 PM	#5
JerseyJet80 bring back the beard! All League Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: North Jersey Posts: 2,733	wouldnt he be happy that he didnt have to watch the browns play?

03-26-2011, 01:31 PM	#6
fullblast All League Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 3,576	Really now... :zzz:

03-26-2011, 05:44 PM	#7
Heynowguy All Pro Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,170	[QUOTE=JetsFanatic;3988476]I hate these frivolous lawsuits. Another idiotic case that ties up the judicial system.[/QUOTE] I'm against frivoulous suits too, but I don't think that is what you have here. Let's say the teams said, "You have to pay in advance pay for tickets, games played or not, no refunds". Would that be grounds for a suit by a fan? I would say yes. So why do you have to pay for your PSL, games played or not? Seems pretty similar to my case above. Plus remember, this is an owner lockout, not a strike. If someone is buying the PSL on installments, why should someone have to pay for the 2011 installment if there are no games? The suit may not win, but it has merit and is not frivolous.

03-26-2011, 05:56 PM	#8
innerjet All Pro Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,209	I'd say taking money for events that aren't guaranteed to happen should be illegal.

03-26-2011, 07:29 PM	#9
Mikey Z 6 oOoOoOo All Pro Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Posts: 5,536	lolololol

03-26-2011, 07:38 PM	#10
Savage69 Jets Insider VIP Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 39,301	[QUOTE=Heynowguy;3988676]I'm against frivoulous suits too, but I don't think that is what you have here. Let's say the teams said, "You have to pay in advance pay for tickets, games played or not, no refunds". Would that be grounds for a suit by a fan? I would say yes. So why do you have to pay for your PSL, games played or not? Seems pretty similar to my case above. Plus remember, this is an owner lockout, not a strike. [B]If someone is buying the PSL on installments, why should someone have to pay for the 2011 installment if there are no games? [/B] The suit may not win, but it has merit and is not frivolous.[/QUOTE] Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you own the seats by paying for the licence??(I mean the right to buy tickets for those seats. If no games are played you would get a ticket refund would you not?? And you could sell your PSL if you wanted couldn't you?? The point is a PSL has value otherwise just buy game day tickets..

03-26-2011, 10:44 PM	#11
rgoltsch Wait 'til next year! Yes, I know it is 2013, I mean 2014 Rookie Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: North Jersey Posts: 541	[QUOTE=Savage69;3988707]Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you own the seats by paying for the licence??(I mean the right to buy tickets for those seats. If no games are played you would get a ticket refund would you not?? And you could sell your PSL if you wanted couldn't you?? The point is a PSL has value otherwise just buy game day tickets..[/QUOTE] The value of this guy's PSL been devalued by the team and the league by having this lockout. So while the suit might seem frivolous on first glance.....if the lockout lasts a while and games are cancelled....and fans stay away once they do come back (Like MLB experienced after the 94 strike), this guy's PSL will not be worth what it was due to an act committed by the team. I am not a lawyer, but I can see the merit of having a judge decide if this case has merits.

03-27-2011, 10:03 AM	#12
Vin RE-SIGN ME, DAMMIT!!! All Pro Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 8,136	Excuse me if I don't shed a tear for yet another MILLIONAIRE here. Wake me when there's an article talking about Jets Football. :zzz:

03-27-2011, 10:44 AM	#13
fukushimajin All Pro Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,130	Good for this guy -- I wish it was a class action that included every owner of a PSL. And to all you folks decrying the supposedly frivolous nature of the suit -- if he wins there will absolutely be no games missed this year. The owners would whither under the financial pressure. It really is amazing that people just can't conceive of the owners having to face the consequences of their actions -- ever. First, they create the PSL -- which is really an unconscionable business practice -- then they lock out the players who were happy to simply extend their current deal and then, when someone thinks of a way to possibly turn their PSL nonsense against them, you side with the owners position? Really?

03-28-2011, 09:05 AM	#14
petejet Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Huntington, NY Posts: 8,221	[QUOTE=fukushimajin;3988864]Good for this guy -- I wish it was a class action that included every owner of a PSL. And to all you folks decrying the supposedly frivolous nature of the suit -- if he wins there will absolutely be no games missed this year. The owners would whither under the financial pressure. It really is amazing that people just can't conceive of the owners having to face the consequences of their actions -- ever. First, they create the PSL -- which is really an unconscionable business practice -- then they lock out the players who were happy to simply extend their current deal and then, when someone thinks of a way to possibly turn their PSL nonsense against them, you side with the owners position? Really?[/QUOTE] The problem is nothing has been canceled yet so what exactly are the damages here?

03-28-2011, 10:11 AM	#15
Savage69 Jets Insider VIP Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 39,301	[QUOTE=petejet;3989137]The problem is nothing has been canceled yet so what exactly are the damages here?[/QUOTE] Next the guy will be suing a airline for a crash that never happened and a plane he was never on..:P

03-28-2011, 10:38 AM	#16
Traitor Jay & the Woodies is down with the cause. Hall of Fame Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: The Eternal Blackness of My Mind Posts: 3,704	It's good to know that JI.com isn't the exclusive home of attention whores in the NFL. The guy should sue his daddy for making him a Browns fan.

03-28-2011, 02:41 PM	#17
fukushimajin All Pro Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,130	[QUOTE=petejet;3989137]The problem is nothing has been canceled yet so what exactly are the damages here?[/QUOTE] None yet, legal system takes a long time. True though, he can't get an injunction and would be bounced for lack of standing at this point. Still, I like that this out there for the owners to think about should they decide to miss games over some minor points at the end of negotiations...

03-28-2011, 02:49 PM	#18
petejet Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Huntington, NY Posts: 8,221	[QUOTE=fukushimajin;3989370]None yet, legal system takes a long time. True though, he can't get an injunction and would be bounced for lack of standing at this point. Still, I like that this out there for the owners to think about should they decide to miss games over some minor points at the end of negotiations...[/QUOTE] I am curious to see if there is anything in the PSL contracts the cover the owners in event of a work stoppage. Can anyone comment?

03-28-2011, 08:07 PM	#19
Heynowguy All Pro Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,170	[QUOTE=Savage69;3988707]Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you own the seats by paying for the licence??(I mean the right to buy tickets for those seats. If no games are played you would get a ticket refund would you not?? And you could sell your PSL if you wanted couldn't you?? The point is a PSL has value otherwise just buy game day tickets..[/QUOTE] You have good points, effective counter arguments. I said that the case has merit, not that it's a slam dunk win. I would love to argue the case though. How much value is there in a PSL for "the right to buy tickets" when there are no tickets? Let me play a what if with you. What if the lockout lasts 10 years? (I know, a long shot, but so is Butler-VCU.) If the lockout lasted 10 years, would you say a law suit has merit? Now, say it lasts 1 year, give me 10% of the 10 year damage number. I'll add a wrinkle, Woody was selling PSLs the same time he was planning his lockout. That's a bit crooked at least, no? I think it's crooked enough to show to a judge and it's not frivoulus.