Tax Rates, Inequality and the 1% - Page 3

southparkcpa · 12-06-2011, 08:38 PM

[QUOTE=OCCH;4267009]I'm just amazed we can live in a country that offers free education, free food, low-cost housing, Medicaid, etc., and we still complain "rich people" don't pay enough . . .[/QUOTE]

Pssst......it's not free.

PlumberKhan · 12-06-2011, 09:02 PM

[QUOTE=OCCH;4267009]I'm just amazed we can live in a country that offers free education, free food, low-cost housing, Medicaid, etc., and we still complain "rich people" don't pay enough . . .[/QUOTE]

Yeeeeeees.

It's SO SO SO SO SO sad.

Those POOR POOR rich people.

If it wasn't for all those mean people, they'd own 98% of the country's wealth instead of the 96% they currently own. That extra 2% means they could masturbate into Faberge Eggs instead of the gold urns they have to ejaculate into now....

long island leprechaun · 12-06-2011, 09:47 PM

[QUOTE=southparkcpa;4266914]technology advances almost guarantee this trend will continue.....so what's your:

Solution
Point

taxation will not stop this...... Perhaps if the education unions in this country cared about anything except making teachers upper class early retirees we could have real money reach the children and not just the vacationing teachers.[/QUOTE]

A little defensive? I'm just pointing out that the article arbitrarily stopped at a different point than the "liberals" they were excoriating. Pot calling the kettle and all of that. No point other than that. No simple, black and white superficial solutions to offer either. 90% of what's posted here amounts to Madden politics. Just mind-numbingly simplistic bs. But it's fun to argue the same old points over and over and not change anybody's prejudices, mine or yours.

southparkcpa · 12-07-2011, 05:57 AM

[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4267116]A little defensive? I'm just pointing out that the article arbitrarily stopped at a different point than the "liberals" they were excoriating. Pot calling the kettle and all of that. No point other than that. No simple, black and white superficial solutions to offer either. 90% of what's posted here amounts to Madden politics. Just mind-numbingly simplistic bs. But it's fun to argue the same old points over and over and not change anybody's prejudices, mine or yours.[/QUOTE]

No, not defensive but the problem is REAL...but the way government operates, I dont see how anyone believes government can not make this worse.

We tax the upper 10 percent for 90 percent of all revenue and the problem is getting worse. The problems we speak of (income disparity and health insurance) do not affect those in government the way they affect the private sector yet government has grown at astronomical rates. Perhaps if it did....they would help solve it.

OCCH · 12-07-2011, 06:37 AM

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4267050]Yeeeeeees.

It's SO SO SO SO SO sad.

Those POOR POOR rich people.

If it wasn't for all those mean people, they'd own 98% of the country's wealth instead of the 96% they currently own. That extra 2% means they could masturbate into Faberge Eggs instead of the gold urns they have to ejaculate into now....[/QUOTE]

Not that I would ever expect a legitimate response from you, but at what point do "rich people" not deserve to own 99% of the country? Are they stopping entrepenurial young black kids from reaching levels of success? Are they scheming to keep minorities in the ghetto?

Get back to me when you have something better than "they have it, we want it, so hand it over now . . .":rolleyes:

PlumberKhan · 12-07-2011, 06:58 AM

[QUOTE=OCCH;4267303]but at what point do "rich people" not deserve to own 99% of the country?[/QUOTE]

July 4, 1776

long island leprechaun · 12-07-2011, 07:27 AM

[QUOTE=OCCH;4267303]Not that I would ever expect a legitimate response from you, but at what point do "rich people" not deserve to own 99% of the country? Are they stopping entrepenurial young black kids from reaching levels of success? Are they scheming to keep minorities in the ghetto?

Get back to me when you have something better than "they have it, we want it, so hand it over now . . .":rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Bottom line is: what kind of nation do you want? If you put all your eggs in the basket of "bootstrap do-it-yourself" capitalism, you will also have to live with a very large, angry, fighting-for-scraps populace that doesn't appreciate the very rich. Same was true in the ancient Roman republic, same is true today. Reality is that people are not all equally smart, capable, gifted, or driven, much less starting from the same financial status at birth. Inequalities of all sorts will breed further inequality unless balanced by a social contract that in some way gives back to the masses. Might not seem fair to boy genius who makes it big, but that's the hard truth of avoiding polarization and potentially revolution. You can't build a nation without compromise. How and where you compromise is the whole debate.

intelligentjetsfan · 12-07-2011, 07:55 AM

[QUOTE=bitonti;4266443]oh yeah my bad. the Gop's ideas are to destroy every aspect of gov't and let the free market reign supreme. that should go well. Good luck with that.[/QUOTE]

except when it comes to reducing the [B]billions[/B] of tax money spent annually on military/weapons/war. Then the fiscal hawks lose their voice....and their credibility with it.

southparkcpa · 12-07-2011, 08:17 AM

[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4267320]Bottom line is: what kind of nation do you want? If you put all your eggs in the basket of "bootstrap do-it-yourself" capitalism, you will also have to live with a very large, angry, fighting-for-scraps populace that doesn't appreciate the very rich. Same was true in the ancient Roman republic, same is true today. Reality is that people are not all equally smart, capable, gifted, or driven, much less starting from the same financial status at birth. Inequalities of all sorts will breed further inequality unless balanced by a social contract that in some way gives back to the masses. Might not seem fair to boy genius who makes it big, but that's the hard truth of avoiding polarization and potentially revolution. [B]You can't build a nation without compromise.[/B] How and where you compromise is the whole debate.[/QUOTE]

Please...spare us. the government (specifically state and local) is driving the middle class off Long island with property taxes that are amongst the highest
in the nation. For what??? I think we all know.

How is taxing the top 10 percent going to help those who refuse to recognize that in the next 20 years, maunaul labor will be driven to $8 an hour and that's all they can do if they dont focus on a skill. Plumber, electrician, carpenter, etc...ALL will provide a good living but God forbid these kids focus.

Please address how increasing taxation on the rich will help these kids if history has shown that we spend MORE on education now than ever and it is getting worse?

Any lib..please answer. WHY if education expense is at its peak (use DC as an example), do you expect spending more on education will change this problem?

Trades · 12-07-2011, 09:58 AM

[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4267320]Bottom line is: what kind of nation do you want? If you put all your eggs in the basket of "bootstrap do-it-yourself" capitalism, you will also have to live with a very large, angry, fighting-for-scraps populace that doesn't appreciate the very rich. Same was true in the ancient Roman republic, same is true today. Reality is that people are not all equally smart, capable, gifted, or driven, much less starting from the same financial status at birth. Inequalities of all sorts will breed further inequality unless balanced by a social contract that in some way gives back to the masses. Might not seem fair to boy genius who makes it big, but that's the hard truth of avoiding polarization and potentially revolution. You can't build a nation without compromise. How and where you compromise is the whole debate.[/QUOTE]

There is a social contract and all we hear is they want more. 48% of the country doesn't pay income tax. That means 52% are paying for all of the entitlements. Not surprisingly the 52% take the fewest entitlements.

If you want to talk about ending bailouts and corporate welfare then I am with you but expecting those that succeed to pay even more for those that fail or never even try. America gives everyone a reasonable chance to succeed if you are willing to meet half way and do your part. Holding your hand out waiting for your government check isn't doing your part.

southparkcpa · 12-07-2011, 10:02 AM

[QUOTE=intelligentjetsfan;4267339]except when it comes to reducing the [B]billions[/B] of tax money spent annually on military/weapons/war. Then the fiscal hawks lose their voice....and their credibility with it.[/QUOTE]

I believe we could and should close 20 percent of all military bases.

Why don't we?

No congess person will vote for it.

Warfish · 12-07-2011, 10:18 AM

[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4267320]Bottom line is: what kind of nation do you want? If you put all your eggs in the basket of "bootstrap do-it-yourself" capitalism, you will also have to live with a very large, angry, fighting-for-scraps populace that doesn't appreciate the very rich. Same was true in the ancient Roman republic, same is true today. Reality is that people are not all equally smart, capable, gifted, or driven, much less starting from the same financial status at birth. Inequalities of all sorts will breed further inequality unless balanced by a social contract that in some way gives back to the masses. Might not seem fair to boy genius who makes it big, but that's the hard truth of avoiding polarization and potentially revolution. You can't build a nation without compromise. How and where you compromise is the whole debate.[/QUOTE]

I have to hand it to you LiL, I have a boatload of respect for your abillity to write. You almost make Social Welfare State-ism and Govt. Tyrany sound perfectly logical and rational. Hell, you could almost convince ME, you're that good!:eek:

But the truth is, what your describing is a system of equallity of outcomes, where effort and talent and skill in punished, to bring them back to the masses unwilling or unable to put in that effort, or use theri talents and skills for their own benefits. You're quite right, we're not all equal, and thats not a problem nor a sin. Telling people they "deserve" the same outcome as someone more talented, putting in more effort, and working harder than them, in the name of "fairness" is a sin.

I don't have to look any further than President Obama himself to back my view. Here we have a man who came from literally nothing, a broken dysfunctional home, poverty, abandonment, drug use and more......is he still in poverty today? No, today, this bi-racial, formerly poor, came-from-nothing man is comfortably in the very 1% he claims is the problem, and is the most powerful and influential man in the entire nation.

Clearly, we must be a truly unequal and unfair nation, for Barrack H. Obama, child of a broken home and poverty, to now be a multi-millionaire and President. Right?

What I'd love to see, is the list of Social Services/Entitlements Obama himself took advantage of to reach his current heights of absolute power. It's so often said the lower-class cannot rech the middle class without them.....so which ones did he use and rely on?

In any event, again, you are one hell of a writer Lil. I might stand against everything you say, but by god do you say it well some days.

bitonti · 12-07-2011, 10:21 AM

[QUOTE=Warfish;4267507]
Clearly, we must be a truly unequal and unfair nation, for Barrack H. Obama, child of a broken home and poverty, to now be a multi-millionaire and President. Right?
[/QUOTE]

things were far less unequal when Obama was growing up.

Warfish · 12-07-2011, 10:28 AM

[QUOTE=bitonti;4267511]things were far less unequal when Obama was growing up.[/QUOTE]

Really? So the 60's, 70's and 80's (his youthful years, ages 1-30) were a good and fair time to be a dirt poor black-skinned kid, eh?

But today, 2011, not so much? An Obama couldn't rise to where our President has today, eh? No opportunities now, right?

We'll have to disagree on that.

chiefst2000 · 12-07-2011, 10:28 AM

[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4267320]Bottom line is: what kind of nation do you want? If you put all your eggs in the basket of "bootstrap do-it-yourself" capitalism, you will also have to live with a very large, angry, fighting-for-scraps populace that doesn't appreciate the very rich. Same was true in the ancient Roman republic, same is true today. Reality is that people are not all equally smart, capable, gifted, or driven, much less starting from the same financial status at birth. Inequalities of all sorts will breed further inequality unless balanced by a social contract that in some way gives back to the masses. Might not seem fair to boy genius who makes it big, but that's the hard truth of avoiding polarization and potentially revolution. You can't build a nation without compromise. How and where you compromise is the whole debate.[/QUOTE]

Its always all or nothing with liberals. These straw man arguments lend nothing to serious minded debates. When you have a president running around preaching that evil Republicans want dirty air and water, want to get rid of social security and medicare, want to fire all the teachers cops and firefighters. Its nonsense. Republicans want fiscal restraint. They think that government workers should get paid salaries and benefits closer to what private sectors workers make. They want to stop wasting money on programs that don't work. And most importantly they want to FIX social security and medicare so that future generations can enjoy similar benefits as their parents did.

A big difference between the two parties is that the GOP (pushed by the tea party) is willing to recognize the structural problems in our entitlement system and look for fixes. The Democrats from what I've seen are happier to blame the structural problems on the rich and pretend millionaires surtaxes will solve the problem. One wonders how a millionaire tax that at best raises 30billion or so a year will solve multi trillion dollar deficits. Sane people that understand numbers know that solving the structural problems with taxation is impossible yet you still have Dem's trotting out this nonsense as a solution.

bitonti · 12-07-2011, 10:32 AM

[QUOTE=Warfish;4267521]Really? So the 60's, 70's and 80's (his youthful years, ages 1-30) were a good and fair time to be a dirt poor black-skinned kid, eh?

But today, 2011, not so much? An Obama couldn't rise to where our President has today, eh? No opportunities now, right?

We'll have to disagree on that.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say an Obama couldn't rise today, but it would be harder.

Also should be noted tax rates were much higher in the 60's, 70's and 80's and life was pretty good. What benefit has the Bush tax cut given this country? The lowest job growth rates in a century.

bitonti · 12-07-2011, 10:33 AM

[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4267522] One wonders how a millionaire tax that at best raises 30billion or so a year will solve multi trillion dollar deficits. [/QUOTE]

is it fair to wonder what a bush tax cut, that prevented 3.5 trillion dollars in revenue from being collected, over 10 years, solved anything? where's all the jobs this trickle down policy was supposed to create? where's the growth?

face the facts: Supply side economics is dead and tax rates (for everyone) are too low.

southparkcpa · 12-07-2011, 10:37 AM

[QUOTE=bitonti;4267532][B]I didn't say an Obama couldn't rise today, but it would be harder. [/B]
Also should be noted tax rates were much higher in the 60's, 70's and 80's and life was pretty good. What benefit has the Bush tax cut given this country? The lowest job growth rates in a century.[/QUOTE]

So all the strides made for equal rights and affirmative action have produced nothing? Please.

Today..opportunity for ALL is as level a playing field as we have ever had.

Totally level? NO, of course not.

I did not have the opportunity that many of you did. Grew up on welfare, went to a community college and worked all the way through and then went on. Most of my contemporaries had 2 parents, a house etc.... it will never be equal.

Warfish · 12-07-2011, 10:44 AM

[QUOTE=bitonti;4267532]I didn't say an Obama couldn't rise today, but it would be harder. [/QUOTE]

No, it wouldn't. There has never been a better time to be poor and black in America than today....at least until tomorrow. The amount of opportunity and support is as great as it's ever been.

But I'm guessing there is not just a little personal projectionism in your worldview on this. Feeling unappreciated and unrewarded in your own job these days Bit? Think you should and would be doing much better than mid-level drone, if only things were "fair"?

Yeah, I'd bet thats part of it.

[quote]face the facts: Supply side economics is dead and tax rates (for everyone) are too low.[/QUOTE]

I've faced the facts on you a while ago Bit. You're a Socialist, and you say all the same stuff Socialists have always said. And you speak in all the same dishonest and manipulative language, appealing to Class Warfare and Jealosy and Bitterness, just liek Socialists always have.

End of teh day, your argument always comes back to the same thing: You want bigger more powerful Government, higher taxes for the productive, and as much wealth redistribution, social welfare, and equallity of outcomes as you can get away with.

bitonti · 12-07-2011, 10:46 AM

[QUOTE=Warfish;4267574]
But I'm guessing there is not just a little personal projectionism in your worldview on this. Feeling unappreciated and unrewarded in your own job these days Bit? Think you should and would be doing much better than mid-level drone, if only things were "fair"?

Yeah, I'd bet thats part of it.[/QUOTE]

what you don't know about me could fill a book warfish.

12-07-2011, 07:55 AM	#48
intelligentjetsfan All Pro Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,320	[QUOTE=bitonti;4266443]oh yeah my bad. the Gop's ideas are to destroy every aspect of gov't and let the free market reign supreme. that should go well. Good luck with that.[/QUOTE] except when it comes to reducing the [B]billions[/B] of tax money spent annually on military/weapons/war. Then the fiscal hawks lose their voice....and their credibility with it. Last edited by intelligentjetsfan; 12-07-2011 at 08:07 AM.

12-07-2011, 10:44 AM	#59
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=bitonti;4267532]I didn't say an Obama couldn't rise today, but it would be harder. [/QUOTE] No, it wouldn't. There has never been a better time to be poor and black in America than today....at least until tomorrow. The amount of opportunity and support is as great as it's ever been. But I'm guessing there is not just a little personal projectionism in your worldview on this. Feeling unappreciated and unrewarded in your own job these days Bit? Think you should and would be doing much better than mid-level drone, if only things were "fair"? Yeah, I'd bet thats part of it. [quote]face the facts: Supply side economics is dead and tax rates (for everyone) are too low.[/QUOTE] I've faced the facts on you a while ago Bit. You're a Socialist, and you say all the same stuff Socialists have always said. And you speak in all the same dishonest and manipulative language, appealing to Class Warfare and Jealosy and Bitterness, just liek Socialists always have. End of teh day, your argument always comes back to the same thing: You want bigger more powerful Government, higher taxes for the productive, and as much wealth redistribution, social welfare, and equallity of outcomes as you can get away with. Last edited by Warfish; 12-07-2011 at 10:47 AM.

12-06-2011, 08:38 PM	#41
southparkcpa I see the 88 to 97 period all over again. Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 15,927	[QUOTE=OCCH;4267009]I'm just amazed we can live in a country that offers free education, free food, low-cost housing, Medicaid, etc., and we still complain "rich people" don't pay enough . . .[/QUOTE] Pssst......it's not free.

12-06-2011, 09:02 PM	#42
PlumberKhan HAIL SATAN! Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,081	[QUOTE=OCCH;4267009]I'm just amazed we can live in a country that offers free education, free food, low-cost housing, Medicaid, etc., and we still complain "rich people" don't pay enough . . .[/QUOTE] Yeeeeeees. It's SO SO SO SO SO sad. Those POOR POOR rich people. If it wasn't for all those mean people, they'd own 98% of the country's wealth instead of the 96% they currently own. That extra 2% means they could masturbate into Faberge Eggs instead of the gold urns they have to ejaculate into now....

12-06-2011, 09:47 PM	#43
long island leprechaun Don't mess with Angel Eyes. All Pro Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: greenwich village, NYC Posts: 7,486	[QUOTE=southparkcpa;4266914]technology advances almost guarantee this trend will continue.....so what's your: Solution Point taxation will not stop this...... Perhaps if the education unions in this country cared about anything except making teachers upper class early retirees we could have real money reach the children and not just the vacationing teachers.[/QUOTE] A little defensive? I'm just pointing out that the article arbitrarily stopped at a different point than the "liberals" they were excoriating. Pot calling the kettle and all of that. No point other than that. No simple, black and white superficial solutions to offer either. 90% of what's posted here amounts to Madden politics. Just mind-numbingly simplistic bs. But it's fun to argue the same old points over and over and not change anybody's prejudices, mine or yours.

12-07-2011, 05:57 AM	#44
southparkcpa I see the 88 to 97 period all over again. Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 15,927	[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4267116]A little defensive? I'm just pointing out that the article arbitrarily stopped at a different point than the "liberals" they were excoriating. Pot calling the kettle and all of that. No point other than that. No simple, black and white superficial solutions to offer either. 90% of what's posted here amounts to Madden politics. Just mind-numbingly simplistic bs. But it's fun to argue the same old points over and over and not change anybody's prejudices, mine or yours.[/QUOTE] No, not defensive but the problem is REAL...but the way government operates, I dont see how anyone believes government can not make this worse. We tax the upper 10 percent for 90 percent of all revenue and the problem is getting worse. The problems we speak of (income disparity and health insurance) do not affect those in government the way they affect the private sector yet government has grown at astronomical rates. Perhaps if it did....they would help solve it.

12-07-2011, 06:37 AM	#45
OCCH glad I have more purpose in life than Jets football . . . Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,422	[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4267050]Yeeeeeees. It's SO SO SO SO SO sad. Those POOR POOR rich people. If it wasn't for all those mean people, they'd own 98% of the country's wealth instead of the 96% they currently own. That extra 2% means they could masturbate into Faberge Eggs instead of the gold urns they have to ejaculate into now....[/QUOTE] Not that I would ever expect a legitimate response from you, but at what point do "rich people" not deserve to own 99% of the country? Are they stopping entrepenurial young black kids from reaching levels of success? Are they scheming to keep minorities in the ghetto? Get back to me when you have something better than "they have it, we want it, so hand it over now . . .":rolleyes:

12-07-2011, 06:58 AM	#46
PlumberKhan HAIL SATAN! Hall Of Fame Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Van down by the river Posts: 21,081	[QUOTE=OCCH;4267303]but at what point do "rich people" not deserve to own 99% of the country?[/QUOTE] July 4, 1776

12-07-2011, 07:27 AM	#47
long island leprechaun Don't mess with Angel Eyes. All Pro Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: greenwich village, NYC Posts: 7,486	[QUOTE=OCCH;4267303]Not that I would ever expect a legitimate response from you, but at what point do "rich people" not deserve to own 99% of the country? Are they stopping entrepenurial young black kids from reaching levels of success? Are they scheming to keep minorities in the ghetto? Get back to me when you have something better than "they have it, we want it, so hand it over now . . .":rolleyes:[/QUOTE] Bottom line is: what kind of nation do you want? If you put all your eggs in the basket of "bootstrap do-it-yourself" capitalism, you will also have to live with a very large, angry, fighting-for-scraps populace that doesn't appreciate the very rich. Same was true in the ancient Roman republic, same is true today. Reality is that people are not all equally smart, capable, gifted, or driven, much less starting from the same financial status at birth. Inequalities of all sorts will breed further inequality unless balanced by a social contract that in some way gives back to the masses. Might not seem fair to boy genius who makes it big, but that's the hard truth of avoiding polarization and potentially revolution. You can't build a nation without compromise. How and where you compromise is the whole debate.

12-07-2011, 08:17 AM	#49
southparkcpa I see the 88 to 97 period all over again. Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 15,927	[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4267320]Bottom line is: what kind of nation do you want? If you put all your eggs in the basket of "bootstrap do-it-yourself" capitalism, you will also have to live with a very large, angry, fighting-for-scraps populace that doesn't appreciate the very rich. Same was true in the ancient Roman republic, same is true today. Reality is that people are not all equally smart, capable, gifted, or driven, much less starting from the same financial status at birth. Inequalities of all sorts will breed further inequality unless balanced by a social contract that in some way gives back to the masses. Might not seem fair to boy genius who makes it big, but that's the hard truth of avoiding polarization and potentially revolution. [B]You can't build a nation without compromise.[/B] How and where you compromise is the whole debate.[/QUOTE] Please...spare us. the government (specifically state and local) is driving the middle class off Long island with property taxes that are amongst the highest in the nation. For what??? I think we all know. How is taxing the top 10 percent going to help those who refuse to recognize that in the next 20 years, maunaul labor will be driven to $8 an hour and that's all they can do if they dont focus on a skill. Plumber, electrician, carpenter, etc...ALL will provide a good living but God forbid these kids focus. Please address how increasing taxation on the rich will help these kids if history has shown that we spend MORE on education now than ever and it is getting worse? Any lib..please answer. WHY if education expense is at its peak (use DC as an example), do you expect spending more on education will change this problem?

12-07-2011, 09:58 AM	#50
Trades Jets Insider VIP Join Date: May 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,570	[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4267320]Bottom line is: what kind of nation do you want? If you put all your eggs in the basket of "bootstrap do-it-yourself" capitalism, you will also have to live with a very large, angry, fighting-for-scraps populace that doesn't appreciate the very rich. Same was true in the ancient Roman republic, same is true today. Reality is that people are not all equally smart, capable, gifted, or driven, much less starting from the same financial status at birth. Inequalities of all sorts will breed further inequality unless balanced by a social contract that in some way gives back to the masses. Might not seem fair to boy genius who makes it big, but that's the hard truth of avoiding polarization and potentially revolution. You can't build a nation without compromise. How and where you compromise is the whole debate.[/QUOTE] There is a social contract and all we hear is they want more. 48% of the country doesn't pay income tax. That means 52% are paying for all of the entitlements. Not surprisingly the 52% take the fewest entitlements. If you want to talk about ending bailouts and corporate welfare then I am with you but expecting those that succeed to pay even more for those that fail or never even try. America gives everyone a reasonable chance to succeed if you are willing to meet half way and do your part. Holding your hand out waiting for your government check isn't doing your part.

12-07-2011, 10:02 AM	#51
southparkcpa I see the 88 to 97 period all over again. Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 15,927	[QUOTE=intelligentjetsfan;4267339]except when it comes to reducing the [B]billions[/B] of tax money spent annually on military/weapons/war. Then the fiscal hawks lose their voice....and their credibility with it.[/QUOTE] I believe we could and should close 20 percent of all military bases. Why don't we? No congess person will vote for it.

12-07-2011, 10:18 AM	#52
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4267320]Bottom line is: what kind of nation do you want? If you put all your eggs in the basket of "bootstrap do-it-yourself" capitalism, you will also have to live with a very large, angry, fighting-for-scraps populace that doesn't appreciate the very rich. Same was true in the ancient Roman republic, same is true today. Reality is that people are not all equally smart, capable, gifted, or driven, much less starting from the same financial status at birth. Inequalities of all sorts will breed further inequality unless balanced by a social contract that in some way gives back to the masses. Might not seem fair to boy genius who makes it big, but that's the hard truth of avoiding polarization and potentially revolution. You can't build a nation without compromise. How and where you compromise is the whole debate.[/QUOTE] I have to hand it to you LiL, I have a boatload of respect for your abillity to write. You almost make Social Welfare State-ism and Govt. Tyrany sound perfectly logical and rational. Hell, you could almost convince ME, you're that good!:eek: But the truth is, what your describing is a system of equallity of outcomes, where effort and talent and skill in punished, to bring them back to the masses unwilling or unable to put in that effort, or use theri talents and skills for their own benefits. You're quite right, we're not all equal, and thats not a problem nor a sin. Telling people they "deserve" the same outcome as someone more talented, putting in more effort, and working harder than them, in the name of "fairness" is a sin. I don't have to look any further than President Obama himself to back my view. Here we have a man who came from literally nothing, a broken dysfunctional home, poverty, abandonment, drug use and more......is he still in poverty today? No, today, this bi-racial, formerly poor, came-from-nothing man is comfortably in the very 1% he claims is the problem, and is the most powerful and influential man in the entire nation. Clearly, we must be a truly unequal and unfair nation, for Barrack H. Obama, child of a broken home and poverty, to now be a multi-millionaire and President. Right? What I'd love to see, is the list of Social Services/Entitlements Obama himself took advantage of to reach his current heights of absolute power. It's so often said the lower-class cannot rech the middle class without them.....so which ones did he use and rely on? In any event, again, you are one hell of a writer Lil. I might stand against everything you say, but by god do you say it well some days.

12-07-2011, 10:21 AM	#53
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=Warfish;4267507] Clearly, we must be a truly unequal and unfair nation, for Barrack H. Obama, child of a broken home and poverty, to now be a multi-millionaire and President. Right? [/QUOTE] things were far less unequal when Obama was growing up.

12-07-2011, 10:28 AM	#54
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=bitonti;4267511]things were far less unequal when Obama was growing up.[/QUOTE] Really? So the 60's, 70's and 80's (his youthful years, ages 1-30) were a good and fair time to be a dirt poor black-skinned kid, eh? But today, 2011, not so much? An Obama couldn't rise to where our President has today, eh? No opportunities now, right? We'll have to disagree on that.

12-07-2011, 10:28 AM	#55
chiefst2000 Champion of Common Sense All Pro Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5,891	[QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4267320]Bottom line is: what kind of nation do you want? If you put all your eggs in the basket of "bootstrap do-it-yourself" capitalism, you will also have to live with a very large, angry, fighting-for-scraps populace that doesn't appreciate the very rich. Same was true in the ancient Roman republic, same is true today. Reality is that people are not all equally smart, capable, gifted, or driven, much less starting from the same financial status at birth. Inequalities of all sorts will breed further inequality unless balanced by a social contract that in some way gives back to the masses. Might not seem fair to boy genius who makes it big, but that's the hard truth of avoiding polarization and potentially revolution. You can't build a nation without compromise. How and where you compromise is the whole debate.[/QUOTE] Its always all or nothing with liberals. These straw man arguments lend nothing to serious minded debates. When you have a president running around preaching that evil Republicans want dirty air and water, want to get rid of social security and medicare, want to fire all the teachers cops and firefighters. Its nonsense. Republicans want fiscal restraint. They think that government workers should get paid salaries and benefits closer to what private sectors workers make. They want to stop wasting money on programs that don't work. And most importantly they want to FIX social security and medicare so that future generations can enjoy similar benefits as their parents did. A big difference between the two parties is that the GOP (pushed by the tea party) is willing to recognize the structural problems in our entitlement system and look for fixes. The Democrats from what I've seen are happier to blame the structural problems on the rich and pretend millionaires surtaxes will solve the problem. One wonders how a millionaire tax that at best raises 30billion or so a year will solve multi trillion dollar deficits. Sane people that understand numbers know that solving the structural problems with taxation is impossible yet you still have Dem's trotting out this nonsense as a solution.

12-07-2011, 10:32 AM	#56
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=Warfish;4267521]Really? So the 60's, 70's and 80's (his youthful years, ages 1-30) were a good and fair time to be a dirt poor black-skinned kid, eh? But today, 2011, not so much? An Obama couldn't rise to where our President has today, eh? No opportunities now, right? We'll have to disagree on that.[/QUOTE] I didn't say an Obama couldn't rise today, but it would be harder. Also should be noted tax rates were much higher in the 60's, 70's and 80's and life was pretty good. What benefit has the Bush tax cut given this country? The lowest job growth rates in a century.

12-07-2011, 10:33 AM	#57
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4267522] One wonders how a millionaire tax that at best raises 30billion or so a year will solve multi trillion dollar deficits. [/QUOTE] is it fair to wonder what a bush tax cut, that prevented 3.5 trillion dollars in revenue from being collected, over 10 years, solved anything? where's all the jobs this trickle down policy was supposed to create? where's the growth? face the facts: Supply side economics is dead and tax rates (for everyone) are too low.

12-07-2011, 10:37 AM	#58
southparkcpa I see the 88 to 97 period all over again. Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 15,927	[QUOTE=bitonti;4267532][B]I didn't say an Obama couldn't rise today, but it would be harder. [/B] Also should be noted tax rates were much higher in the 60's, 70's and 80's and life was pretty good. What benefit has the Bush tax cut given this country? The lowest job growth rates in a century.[/QUOTE] So all the strides made for equal rights and affirmative action have produced nothing? Please. Today..opportunity for ALL is as level a playing field as we have ever had. Totally level? NO, of course not. I did not have the opportunity that many of you did. Grew up on welfare, went to a community college and worked all the way through and then went on. Most of my contemporaries had 2 parents, a house etc.... it will never be equal.

12-07-2011, 10:46 AM	#60
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=Warfish;4267574] But I'm guessing there is not just a little personal projectionism in your worldview on this. Feeling unappreciated and unrewarded in your own job these days Bit? Think you should and would be doing much better than mid-level drone, if only things were "fair"? Yeah, I'd bet thats part of it.[/QUOTE] what you don't know about me could fill a book warfish.